US makes a meal of shrimp dispute

[robyn]

Well, if I lived in Maine, I sure as heck would.  Because I know exactly how good they are.

Even frozen & out of season, they still beat the imported stuff.

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If they were really *that* good - even frozen and out of season - there would be a market for them outside of Maine as a "gourmet" item. Perhaps not in Florida or other states which have plenty of local shrimp - but elsewhere. Robyn

[robyn]

To correct a prior post:

Last year's shrimp season was 40 days, not two weeks.

This year's shrimp season started on the 19th and will run for 70 days with days off for Xmas and NYD.  I have just arrived from Harbor Fish Market with one of many pounds I plan to buy this winter.

Today's Prices:

Whole Shrimp (head/legs-on) $1.49

Headless (but w/shell, legs)  $3.99

Shelled totally:    $6.99

The Portland Fish Exchange held its first shrimp auction on Sunday December 19.  Exchange buyers offered 55 cents for the 9,400 pounds of shrimp consigned; seller representatives declined the price.

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I don't know about wholesale prices here - but our shrimp must be running like crazy. This week - you can find fresh 16-20 local Mayport shrimp (head/legs on) in the stores for $7.99 pound - frozen 16-20 Key West Pinks (headless) for $11.99/pound. How does that correspond with the wholesale prices you're looking at? Robyn

[robyn]

Before I go off quoting a few things here, I think we need to tackle this statement:

People can debate about standards of living. I'm sure there are lots of people in all first world countries who think they enjoy good standards of living - and some who don't. Since political debate isn't the subject of this website - I'll leave the issue of who's right - and who's wrong - to another place

The issue of shrimp farming being political is very much on-topic, and I would urge us to keep it that way. Limiting it to a debate of cheap vs. expensive completely ignores some of the economic, social and political factors and variables that influence that price. So far we've mentioned World Bank, IMF, free trade, market price and the difference between capitalist and socialist economies as possible explanations for this but there may also be others.

I think in doing that with the shrimp trade it prevents you from rationalizing this debate as follows (and I apologize in advance Robyn, because I don't wish to be seen as ganging up on you):

Well what should people eat? Perhaps we're eating more salmon in the US now than we used to because it's $4.99/pound instead of $14.99/pound - but there are worse things than eating salmon. Note that I'm not advocating overeating. It's just nice to have relatively cheap ingredients available

Agreed. It's nice, but it's unrealistic, and not at all reflective of the actual cost of the good. If only for a second let's put the shrimp debate aside and talk about bananas, also heavily commodified and subject to these same market fluctuations.

Here's an interesting graphical breakdown of the cost of bananas:

A bar graph of production costs (taking into account that, at the moment, the wholesale price of a 43 pound box of Ecuadorian bananas is $2.90 USD):

I couldn't find the same data for Shrimping but would suspect the lessons to be the same....that is, we aren't paying the full price of the thing because so many "costs" aren't accounted for. And about 5% of what we pay ends up in the hands of the producers.

Let's go back to Shrimp then, shall we?

Don't you trust the people in Vietnam to do what's best for them (assuming that's where you're talking about in terms of shrimp)? Perhaps the people in that country should be able to choose for themselves whether a major domestic industry will be farmed fish production or something more pernicious (like the sex trade in young children in certain Asia countries). Is your primary goal to protect the mangroves in Asia - or the good old boy shrimpers in the Gulf Coast of the US?

Well, if you're a supporter of free trade I'd think you'd be ok with the death of US shrimpers. It's a matter of efficiency, and shrimp farms (rather than the trawling that occurs domestically) maintain a reliable volume, with lower labour costs and higher economies of scale. Of course the protectionist antidumping laws could also kick in and help prop up an industry that's a victim of these same "market economy joys" many speak so highly of. But wouldn't that be contradictory?

This isn't a question of trust one bit. I'd love to think Vietnam could make their own decisions around secure livelihoods. But when they rely on a very fickle U.S. economy for the bulk of their revenue in that sector, then it's just not the case. Unfortunately the fickle nature does not include our demand for shrimp, or our willingness to absorb a fluctuation in price that actually DOES reflect changes in the propducing country.

So begins a long rant on the dangers of a market economy that I'll put aside, but I would invite your comments about what I've posted here.

Some of the sources for the graphs and such:

www.newint.org

www.foodfirst.org

UN FAO (Food & Ag. Association)

http://www.mises.org - Article on The Fallacies of Shrimp Protectionism

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The forum policy disfavors political discussions - and I hate to write long messages which get 86'd because they're too political. So I will try to stay as non-political as possible.

I don't think a comparison of bananas and shrimp is quite on point. Because we don't have a domestic banana industry (except for some specialty stuff in south Florida) - and we do have a domestic shrimp industry. And that shrimp industry is diverse. I'm not sure that shrimpers in Maine have much in common with shrimpers in Florida. Perhaps they all want to impose prohibitive tariffs against non-US shrimp - but I can't recall reading many - or any - articles about that in the local papers in recent years. What I have read tons about is gripes about net rules (you know - the rules that are supposed to protect things like sea turtles).

I don't purport to have a complete understanding of the economics of domestic shrimp trawling - but - if I had to guess - the thing that would most likely kill domestic shrimp trawling is net rules - not imported shrimp.

Now the people who love turtles more than shrimp are probably thrilled with shrimp farms - no matter where they are - because no one ever killed a turtle harvesting a farmed shrimp. And I suppose that's a defensible point of view (although it's not my point of view).

On my part - my only strong feeling is we shouldn't force our domestic producers to comply with some rules (like certain environmental rules) and then allow non-US producers to export things to us when they don't have to play by the same rules. If our shrimpers have to use TEDs (turtle-exclusion devices) - we shouldn't allow shrimp from elsewhere that have been caught without TEDs. It's not a level playing field. But my understanding is we don't allow imports of trawled shrimp caught without TEDs. Which is perhaps why farming shrimp (particularly overseas) is an attractive alternative to trawling. But you can see how it gets complicated - particularly for turtle-lovers. Robyn

[NulloModo]

This isn't a question of trust one bit. I'd love to think Vietnam could make their own decisions around secure livelihoods. But when they rely on a very fickle U.S. economy for the bulk of their revenue in that sector, then it's just not the case. Unfortunately the fickle nature does not include our demand for shrimp, or our willingness to absorb a fluctuation in price that actually DOES reflect changes in the propducing country.

But that is just it. If Vietnam wants to get into the shrimp game with us they need to play by whatever rules we give them. If they want to sell us shrimp, they will sell them at the price we are willing to pay, same with domestic shrimpers. Getting into any business, especially agricultural commodities, is no surefire path to riches and steady paychecks, and anyone getting into it should know that.

If the prices the market is willing to carry rule out domestic shrimpers, then the domestic shrimpers need to find new career paths or re-organize their operation so that they can run it on lower profit margins. If the Vietnamese don't think we are paying them enough for their shrimp, then there will be other nations lining up to sell them to us at the price we are willing to pay.

[FaustianBargain]

The forum policy disfavors political discussions - and I hate to write long messages which get 86'd because they're too political.  So I will try to stay as non-political as possible.

I don't think a comparison of bananas and shrimp is quite on point.  Because we don't have a domestic banana industry (except for some specialty stuff in south Florida) - and we do have a domestic shrimp industry.

I wanted to stay out of this, but I have to note a couple of details here.

Even though the US does not have a domestic banana industry, American companies like Dole, Chiquita etc in S.America have complete control over the banana trade. They dont own land down there, but distribution of banana to the rest of the world(1/3 of banana trade goes to the US, 1/3 to the EU and the remaining to the rest of the world ..Japan etc and ALL banana exports from the South America is controlled by American companies) is a full fledged American enterprise. South American 'banana' economies are propped up by the strength of the USD and the foremost reason why the majority of the S.American population simply cannot cope with the cost of living down there. So much is the hold over these weak economies that when the EU gave preferential treatement to banana import from former colonies of Britain and France and slapped tariffs on South American bananas, the US threatened and finally did slap a 100% export duty on goods from the other side of the pond.(There is a Bush.Sr angle to this, but then this would become a naked political discussion). This is why Roses lime cordial and lemon marmalade costs so much at the local Safeway.

robyn, maybe you can see these as economic discussions instead of political discussions(as i do)? we can expand the scope of these discussions if we can agree among ourselves that it is all going to be purely objective. my humble opinion.

[FaustianBargain]

I think the issue is whether all this is sustainable trade terms and how it really translates for the american public in the short/long run even if we ignore the vietnamese et al.

This isn't a question of trust one bit. I'd love to think Vietnam could make their own decisions around secure livelihoods. But when they rely on a very fickle U.S. economy for the bulk of their revenue in that sector, then it's just not the case. Unfortunately the fickle nature does not include our demand for shrimp, or our willingness to absorb a fluctuation in price that actually DOES reflect changes in the propducing country.

But that is just it. If Vietnam wants to get into the shrimp game with us they need to play by whatever rules we give them. If they want to sell us shrimp, they will sell them at the price we are willing to pay, same with domestic shrimpers. Getting into any business, especially agricultural commodities, is no surefire path to riches and steady paychecks, and anyone getting into it should know that.

If the prices the market is willing to carry rule out domestic shrimpers, then the domestic shrimpers need to find new career paths or re-organize their operation so that they can run it on lower profit margins. If the Vietnamese don't think we are paying them enough for their shrimp, then there will be other nations lining up to sell them to us at the price we are willing to pay.

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[NulloModo]

I think the issue is whether all this is sustainable trade terms and how it really translates for the american public in the short/long run even if we ignore the vietnamese et al.

That is what I was saying. There will always be a sustainable shrimp industry, it just might change who is providing the shrimp, and how well they are being compensated for it.

There will always be a demand for shrimp, there will always be shrimp, so there will always be someone willing to accept the price people are willing to pay for those shrimp to pull them out of the water and serve them up. Let the industry evolve as the market lets it.

[CharityCase]

I think the issue is whether all this is sustainable trade terms and how it really translates for the american public in the short/long run even if we ignore the vietnamese et al.

That is what I was saying. There will always be a sustainable shrimp industry, it just might change who is providing the shrimp, and how well they are being compensated for it.

There will always be a demand for shrimp, there will always be shrimp, so there will always be someone willing to accept the price people are willing to pay for those shrimp to pull them out of the water and serve them up. Let the industry evolve as the market lets it.

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And how do you figure? How do you figure that our ocean's ecosystem can keep up with the billion pounds+ that we consume every year? How do you figure that the oceans can absorb the impacts that the shrimp harvest is having on fresh and saltwater alike? Do you figure that because shrimp is being "farmed" this is somehow much bette than trawling? Can you produce anything from the scientific world rather than the economic to support this theory?

Not sure why this argument keeps circling around Adam Smith and the great unknown powers of supply and demand. Isn't it clear at this point that they don't take anything external into account in their predictions?

[NulloModo]

I'm not a scientist, so I can't speak from that side of things. I will say that I have faith in those farming/fishing the shrimp not to fish them to the point of extinction. Other times we have gotten close to wiping out ocean species we have seen it before it happened, stepped back, and taken steps to correct it, and I see no reason why we wouldn't with shrimp.

[FaustianBargain]

That is what I was saying.  There will always be a sustainable shrimp industry, it just might change who is providing the shrimp, and how well they are being compensated for it. 

There will always be a demand for shrimp, there will always be shrimp, so there will always be someone willing to accept the price people are willing to pay for those shrimp to pull them out of the water and serve them up.  Let the industry evolve as the market lets it.

It is not sustainable. Volume can support the market only upto a certain point because our resources are limited and renewable resources need time to..well..renew.

[

I will say that I have faith in those farming/fishing the shrimp not to fish them to the point of extinction.

Surely, you must be joking.

From AccidentalHedonist'sfoodblog link to EnvironmentalDefence.org

p.s. i find it interesting that sablefish/black cod from alaska is mentioned as 'good'. from what i heard just a couple of days ago, it is quite tedious sourcing sablefish in the united states. the person who had just finished enjoying his sablefish said that this was despite the fact that sablefish isnt endangered.

and then i found the website comments:

The Alaskan sablefish fishery is operated under an Individual Fishing Quota system, which allows fishermen to work under safer conditions and get better prices for their catch while conserving stocks. Sablefish populations are healthy, and the fishing method (bottom longlines) produces little bycatch or harm to bottom habitat.

also, note that imported shrimp/prawns are not recommended by the website.

Edited December 21, 2004 by FaustianBargain (log)

[johnnyd]

Well, if I lived in Maine, I sure as heck would.  Because I know exactly how good they are.

Even frozen & out of season, they still beat the imported stuff.

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If they were really *that* good - even frozen and out of season - there would be a market for them outside of Maine as a "gourmet" item. Perhaps not in Florida or other states which have plenty of local shrimp - but elsewhere. Robyn

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FYI, yes. They really are *that* good.

[johnnyd]

Also from the Maine Shrimp front, Marine scientists extended the season from 40days to 70 because they anticipated 30% more biomass as a result of shorter seasons in the past.

The problem is the prices. Some boats have given up on shrimp this year because of the low prices and some even think there won't be anyone going out to fish for them next year.

So we arent fishing them into extinction here. These are a different creature in the Gulf of Maine and are small (I counted 60/lb) and delicate. Because it is cold water, they are (as are the other seafood here) sweeter then Southern US shrimp. They aren't making a dent in the market because of their fragile shelflife, in my opinion.

Another article in NYT Feb.9,'00 about Maine Shrimp: "Such a Pleasure, So brief a Stay: Maine Shrimp" As an archive article, the cost is $2.95

Edited December 21, 2004 by johnnyd (log)

[laniloa]

We should keep in mind during this excellent discussion that the shrimpers are seeking antidumping duties. This means that there needs to be a finding that a foreign producer is selling a product in the United States at a price that is below that producer's sales price in the country of origin ("home market"), or at a price that is lower than the cost of production. This is a lengthy process where both sides are able to provide evidence showing that dumping has or has not occurred and the petitioner must also show evidence of injury due to the dumping. There have been other seafood cases (Norwegian farmed Atlantic salmon) where these sort of antidumping and counterveiling duties ended government production subsidies to re-level the playing field. The foreign farmed salmon is still cheaper then the domestic farmed salmon but they are now competing on equal footing. Should the foreign entity who has been subjected to a duty not agree with the US's finding, they can appeal through the US process or take it to the WTO for outside arbitration. There can also be a finding of a range of dumping activities allowing for a range of duties depending of the practice of a country or producer.

[FaustianBargain]

update

[robyn]

update

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Just when I said I hadn't read an article about tariffs in years - one appears in each of my 3 morning papers . Robyn

[Daddy-A]

I will say that I have faith in those farming/fishing the shrimp not to fish them to the point of extinction.

Surely, you must be joking.

No kidding. We'll be sure to tell the cod fishers in Newfoundland that the fish stocks are in good hands. Ooops! Too late!

A.

[NulloModo]

I will say that I have faith in those farming/fishing the shrimp not to fish them to the point of extinction.

Surely, you must be joking.

No kidding. We'll be sure to tell the cod fishers in Newfoundland that the fish stocks are in good hands. Ooops! Too late!

A.

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My understanding was that with the cod situation some things had been done to reverse the trend of overfishing, that the industry was now regulating itself to let stocks grow back, is that false?

[FaustianBargain]

I will say that I have faith in those farming/fishing the shrimp not to fish them to the point of extinction.

Surely, you must be joking.

No kidding. We'll be sure to tell the cod fishers in Newfoundland that the fish stocks are in good hands. Ooops! Too late!

A.

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My understanding was that with the cod situation some things had been done to reverse the trend of overfishing, that the industry was now regulating itself to let stocks grow back, is that false?

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In 1992, a total ban was imposed on cod fishing off Newfoundland Grand Bank shores to reverse the trend of overfishing. Well..mostly to save the depleted cod stocks. Unfortunately, it never happened. The cod didnt return or repopulate back to levels that would support any kind of fishing industry. The effects of the cod disaster caused the fishery sector of the region and rippled to every other sector of the economy that led to livelihoods being disrupted, jobs lost, property prices spiralled down etc. In Cod, they trusted. The Cod was unmoved.

point to remember: recommended min cod stock at any given time = 150000 tonnes. (plaice stock in the north sea is facing similar shortages)Current cod stock in the North Sea = 40000 tonnes. The Europeons are trying to bring a partial/total ban in the North Sea too. Hopefully, the Newfoundland fiasco wont repeat itself.

The North Sea situation is a little tragic or at least going that direction. It is an ugly, open secret that fishermen were dumping back dead cod back into the sea to maintain prices and to not oversaturate the market. When the eggs of cod hatch, the little ones feed on plankton. This plankton is available only where there is cold water. With warmer seas, the coldwater plankton may not be available when the cod breeds out of synch. It is a very delicate ecology and everything is intricately connected. Indiscriminate fishing of juveniles also affects the cycles. It is not merely overfishing. There are other factors involved too. Fishing should *revolve* around forces and laws of nature. The opposite does not occur. This is common sense. We have lost it amidst cheap food, quick profits and oversaturated markets.

In conclusion, the attempt to reverse the cod situation off the shores of Canada FAILED.

edited to add: random google Newfoundland Cod stock collapse link.

Edited December 22, 2004 by FaustianBargain (log)

[laniloa]

In the US, measures are being taken to reverse the decline of the Gulf of Maine and Georges Bank cod. Abundance of other groundfish stocks has increased quite a lot from record lows in the 1990s. Depending on who you talk to the measures go too far or not far enough. It is being litigated.

While we may see stocks fished to commercial extinction (the point where it is no longer profitable to catch them -- fuel, salaries, equipment costs exceed price of catch) this would happen before biological extinction. The Canadian cod are there, just not in numbers that can yield a sustainable catch.

[johnnyd]

Article from The Working Waterfront describing mysterious resurgence in codfish stock in the Gulf of Maine.

“I have seen more codfish this year than I ever remember, right from the deep water to the shoal water, along with increasing numbers of other fish as well, like hake and redfish.” - Rick Bubar, Stonington Maine, captain of the F/V "Sea Harvester", a boat I had the pleasure of sea-urchin diving off of, eleven years ago.

No Shrimp Auction this week, but I saw a shrimper leave the harbor at first light this morning. We have had 40 - 50 knot winds the past two days and temps around 12ºF.

Edited December 29, 2004 by johnnyd (log)

[mongo_jones]

this is one of the best, and most illuminating, discussions i've read on egullet in ages--thanks to everyone involved.

[The Cynical Chef]

Speaking of fishing to the brink of extinction: I grew up in south Louisiana and always loved fresh shrimp but it was not until I actually sorted a fresh shrimp catch that I was able to see first hand what actually gets caught in a shrimp net. All sorts of small fish, turtles, rays, and anything else that gets in the net are brought into the boat. A shrimp net may stay in the water for 30 minutes or more so a lot of these sea creatures die in the net or die on the boat. These fish are typically groupers, croakers, snappers, pompano and many other fish that would end up on a dinner table if they were large enough. Imagine if every time a deer hunter shot a deer he also shot 10 squirrels, 5 beaver and a couple of blue jays and then left those dead bodies in the field. What a waste. The point is that the average food supplier is usually concerned only about #1. A Vietnamese shrimp farmer is looking to make a buck just like a Louisiana shrimper, Florida farmer or South Carolina restauranteur. Very few of these folks are actually concerned about what will be available for their children to farm, hunt or cook. It has always been that way and always will. Just yesterday the NY Times ran a piece on how the mega-grocery store chains (Wal Mart, Super Target, Ahold....) are forcing the small Central American Farmers into non-existence. These farmers need to supply a perfectly round trouble free tomato (or squash, or eggplant) to their distributor or it will not get bought. Sound familiar?

In the summer we have a thriving Farmer's Market where I can buy stunning fruits, herbs and vegetables for less than I would get it from the large distributors. Some of this produce is organic or low in pesticides, all of it is wonderful and usually misshapen but it eats like ambrosia. My produce distributors have no idea what a green zebra tomato is but my customers sure do. The crazy part is that I am usually the ONLY Chef shopping at our market. What's up with that!

A typical restaurant in the Outback price range is only interested in price, not taste. Same thing with the grocery stores. Slowly these forces have manipulated taste buds so that the average consumer has no interest in or cannot recognize flavor.

So the end result is huge Fish and/or shrimp farms that produce a rubbery, lifeless product that is cooked and served with rubbery, lifeless tomatoes in a rubbery, lifeless restaurant.

Demand better in Life!

[Dr. Funk]

The forum policy disfavors political discussions - and I hate to write long messages which get 86'd because they're too political.  So I will try to stay as non-political as possible.

I don't think a comparison of bananas and shrimp is quite on point.  Because we don't have a domestic banana industry (except for some specialty stuff in south Florida) - and we do have a domestic shrimp industry.

I wanted to stay out of this, but I have to note a couple of details here.

Even though the US does not have a domestic banana industry, American companies like Dole, Chiquita etc in S.America have complete control over the banana trade. They dont own land down there, but distribution of banana to the rest of the world(1/3 of banana trade goes to the US, 1/3 to the EU and the remaining to the rest of the world ..Japan etc and ALL banana exports from the South America is controlled by American companies) is a full fledged American enterprise. South American 'banana' economies are propped up by the strength of the USD and the foremost reason why the majority of the S.American population simply cannot cope with the cost of living down there. So much is the hold over these weak economies that when the EU gave preferential treatement to banana import from former colonies of Britain and France and slapped tariffs on South American bananas, the US threatened and finally did slap a 100% export duty on goods from the other side of the pond.(There is a Bush.Sr angle to this, but then this would become a naked political discussion). This is why Roses lime cordial and lemon marmalade costs so much at the local Safeway.

robyn, maybe you can see these as economic discussions instead of political discussions(as i do)? we can expand the scope of these discussions if we can agree among ourselves that it is all going to be purely objective. my humble opinion.

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When did the big banana growers sell off their holdings? Go back and do your research and you'll find that they still own all the good land.

[Bux]

Well, if I lived in Maine, I sure as heck would.  Because I know exactly how good they are.

Even frozen & out of season, they still beat the imported stuff.

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If they were really *that* good - even frozen and out of season - there would be a market for them outside of Maine as a "gourmet" item. Perhaps not in Florida or other states which have plenty of local shrimp - but elsewhere. Robyn

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Just a few weeks ago, Chef Yasuda of Sushi Yasuda in NY, was telling us that the only raw shrimp he serves is from Maine, and that the short season hadn't started yet. I was jumping the gun by a week or two asking him if he had "amaebi" yet.

[FaustianBargain]

When did the big banana growers sell off their holdings?  Go back and do your research and you'll find that they still own all the good land.

I didnt say that. May I ask you read what I wrote?