Hollow edge chef's knife?

[mrsadm]

I really like the look of this knife:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=6089

Does anyone here have experience using a hollow edge knife? How does it compare to a standard chef's knife? How do you possibly sharpen one of these?

[melkor]

You can sharpen it as you would any normal knife. The indents are on the side of the blade not the sharp edge.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I am planning to buy this exact knife shortly! My friends swear that it is exceptional ... but I have seen it priced lower somewhere .. will check it out.

if this is the same knife.. then it is slightly cheaper...

[mrsadm]

I am planning to buy this exact knife shortly! My friends swear that it is exceptional ... but I have seen it priced lower somewhere .. will check it out.

if this is the same knife.. then it is slightly cheaper...

←

It is a similar knife but not quite the same. Your link goes to a 7 inch Santoku type knife; the one I am considering is an 8 inch chef's knife.

I am not sure what a Santoku knife is good for, can anyone explain? I can see how a chef's knife can be used for "rocking" type cuts and the shape of the Santoku doesn't seem to accomodate them.

[jackal10]

Personally I don't like gratton edges, nor stainless steel, nor the rounded edge shape. Also similar knives are available on Amazon for a few bucks less and eBay for about half price.

For myself, I use old-fashioned Sabatier Carbonne, full carbon knives.

These need a little more care - they rust if you put them in the dishwasher, the blade acquires a dark patina with use, and the steel is soft, in that you have to sharpen them (a few strokes on a steel) in use, but the edge is like no other. You can cut a tomato, or a sheet of paper by just resting the knife on it and moving it with a fingertip.

My "cooking" knife is the 5-inch carbon steel boning knife. They also do an 8 inch (and a 6 and a 10 and 12 inch) in the same range

Amazon have them.

[AzRaeL]

I really like the look of this knife:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=6089

Does anyone here have experience using a hollow edge knife?  How does it compare to a standard chef's knife?  How do you possibly sharpen one of these?

←

The little scallops you see are called a Granton edge. It prevents the food from sticking to the blade. You sharpen normally. I doubt you'd really take THAT much steel off the blade to make such difference. Wüsthof is generally accepted as the king of European knives. Having said that, You might, if you can afford it, consider some of the Japanese knife makers.

Glestain makes gorgeous blades with the same antisticking effect.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/GLESTAIN2.html

Now we've opened a whole new can of worms. The latest trend in knives is to move towards Japanese blades which are harder and sharper than European blades. And to answer someone's Question. What is a Santoku good for? Not much I think *LOL*

Santoku means 3 virtues. It was popular a few years ago cuz a couple of chefs in the Food Network started using them. It's a compromise between a Cleaver and a Chef's knife. It's popular in Asia because a sharp tip is considered either unlucky or dangerous (or both).

[Octaveman]

Glestain makes gorgeous blades with the same antisticking effect.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/GLESTAIN2.html

Now we've opened a whole new can of worms. The latest trend in knives is to move towards Japanese blades which are harder and sharper than European blades. And to answer someone's Question. What is a Santoku good for? Not much I think *LOL*

Santoku means 3 virtues. It was popular a few years ago cuz a couple of chefs in the Food Network started using them. It's a compromise between a Cleaver and a Chef's knife. It's popular in Asia because a sharp tip is considered either unlucky or dangerous (or both).

←

A whole new can of worms is right. The "trend" toward Japanes knives is not because it's a current fad but because they are far superior to European knives in many ways. As AzRael said they are harder and sharper but they are also lighter, better balanced and easier to sharpen because of the absence of a full bolster. They are also becoming more popular because they are more available than they've ever been. Check out this site as they have many brands in both Japanese and Western styles but all with Japanese steel... Korin Japanese Knives. There are many other web sites that carry Japanese blades. Want a hand made knife of very high quality? Watanabe Blade.com I've ordered a Japanese Deba from this maker and from what I've heard from other people who've ordered from this maker the craftmanship is outstanding and the sharpness of the blades out of the box is unreal compared to other brands. Some people I know have several knives of his. I can't wait until my knife arrives.

Sorry, putting the worms back in the can... My first Japanese knife was a granton edged Shun Santoku. I used it daily until I bought a Japanese Gyuto (Western design Japanese chef's knife). Since Santoku's don't get much longer than 6.5 inches, I now prefer my ten inch Gyuto over the smaller Santoku. IMO the kullens don't really keep food from sticking. I think they may be good with a slicer but not with a daily working knife so the extra expense is worthless. You either like the Santoku or you like a chef's knife. In my experience with my Santoku, it's wider than my Gyuto so I have I have to lift it higher to get the rocking motion going. But if you use a push/chop method rather than rocking a Santoku would be fine. You can rock with the Santoku but I just think the Gryuto is more versatile.

I recommend going here for more research into which knives are best: Knife Forums.com. Go to the "In The Kitchen" discussion forum. There is a wealth of information about knives including the Gelstain knives or any other knives with kullens.

Cheers,

Bob

p.s. Don't buy a knife just because it looks good. Looks should be secondary to it's performance.

Edited November 29, 2004 by Octaveman (log)

[russ parsons]

without spoiling too much, i'm working on a story on just this topic. i've ordered and tried 8 different knives. i agree about the santokus--neither chef's knife nor parer. and especially the ceramic ones. but those gyutous ... oh my.

[RETREVR]

Sharpening is a problem eventualy. The kullens are very close to the edge. A chefs knife gets used a lot and therefore sharpened a lot. I don't like the fact that the edge is soon to be interacting with the kullens after not so many sharpenings. THe boltser will prevent you from sharpening the heel of the blade also. If you want a german knife, consider the cordon blue or the messermiester which have the half bolster.

Talk about trends. I have seen these kullens on all sorts of knives lately. The high dollar serraded chefs knife is also a new trick. I guess they are targeted to people smart enough to buy a quality knife but not smart enough to sharpen one.

The kullens offer very minimal advantages on a chef knife and huge disadvantages. Two years from now the guy at the Wusthof dealership will be selling you the new model because the edge is worn into the kullens. I will be enjoying my just broken-in flat blade.

The Glestains are good knives but have a pretty hefty price as well. I could find quite a few knives I would rather have for less money. You will also notice that the kullens are set much farther away from the edge on the Glestain.

I would consider a slicer with the kullens for a few reasons.

They offer a greater advantage in very thinly sliced roast and raw fish.

The slicer is not used nearly as much and rarely is it in contact with the cutting board. Thus it does not need to be sharpened as often. Thus it wears down very slowly.

Lastly....I don't have a deep attatchment to my slicers. I can just buy a new one. The chefs knife is my closest confidant and I keep them forever.

Edited November 30, 2004 by RETREVR (log)

[winesonoma]

Kullens as they are now called were actually Patanted in 1935 by the Graton Knife Co Of Sheffield England, Knife Makers since 1601. After the patents expired everybody jumped on. The original can be bought at http://www.knifemerchant.com/ .

[AzRaeL]

without spoiling too much, i'm working on a story on just this topic. i've ordered and tried 8 different knives. i agree about the santokus--neither chef's knife nor parer. and especially the ceramic ones. but those gyutous ... oh my.

←

Which is your favourite Gyutou?

I'm waiting for the day when I can buy a Masamono VG10 Gyutou..woooooweee!

Right now I have a Global GF33 20cm dropforged Gyutou.

I used to be so happy with Global, till a friend gave me a Misono Molybdenum Stainless Steel Sujihiki (slicer) Now I'm just itching for the next level.

[RETREVR]

This is my workhorse gyuto right now: http://www.japanese-knife.com/Merchant2/me...gory_Code=HFU-F

Takes and holds a nice assymetrical edge. I sanded down the handle a little and rounded off the spine and heal for fit. It is blade heavy but that is OK for the prep tasks that require the big knife. Great knife for the money. It claims to be swedish carbon steel on the inside but I have not seen any tarnish.

I use a 8" Shun Chefs knife while I am at the stove and for finer work. It is not really a gyuto, but a Japanese made western style chefs knife.

One of these might be my next:

http://www.japanese-knife.com/Merchant2/me...ory_Code=HMI-SW

Carbon can turn off clients when you are cooking in their homes. I want one anyway. VG-10 is awsome but carbon has soul.

[russ parsons]

Which is your favourite Gyutou?

i've liked lots of them. but my favorite would have to be either the misono ux10 or the hattori (NOT the $1,200 one, though i'm sure i'd love it if i could ever get it through my expense account).

[Ore]

So,

Now that I have all the knife experts peering in...I ran into something quite strange for me - with my Brieto M11-Pro It is a Molybdenum Vanadium Steel blade - when I first got it, about a year ago from Korin, it had a normal (2 sided) blade. About 4 months ago I changed it to a one side blade - and it works just as well, if not better.

Last week, I saw something strange though. It looked as if shards of the actual blade, as thin as foil, were comming off. I turned it back into a normal blade (two sides), and i made the shards go away, by cleaning and a tiny bit more sharpening on the 8000 grit - any help on what the hell the shards are caused by!?!

Is the knife done?? Is the blade too thin? (can it be too thin?!?)

Thanks!

Ore

[slkinsey]

i've liked lots of them. but my favorite would have to be either the misono ux10 or the hattori (NOT the $1,200 one, though i'm sure i'd love it if i could ever get it through my expense account).

Interesting. Looking at this UX10 here, it doesn't look fundamentally different in design from my custom cast dendritic steel knives:

These always struck me as fundamentally Western shapes. What makes a gyutou different?

[RETREVR]

The gyutou is a western styled knife and looks like a chefs knife. One difference is that most gyutos are sharpened at different angles on each side of the blade. Thus one generaly has to special order a left handed knife.

There are many steels used. From very hard high carbon(not stainless) to very hard alloys with cobalt. Many use a super hard steel sandwiched betwene two layers or more softer stainless steel. This gives you a super hard edge without the blade being brittle. Most use steel harder than typical Solingen steel. Many of the gyutous have a rockwell of around 60 as German stainless steel is generaly in the low and mid 50s. I am not a metalurgist.

Gyutous usualy have thinner lighter blades. The bolster is not needed to ballance the knife. Not having a full bolster makes it possible to sharpen the entire length of the blade.

The form is realy not revolutionary. The quality of the steel is the real attraction, even in the $100 and under range. The craftsmanship becomes the attraction in the more expensive knives.

[slkinsey]

Hmm... Interesting. So, what people seem to be saying is that there are three attractions to a gyutou: 1) no bolster; 2) specialty steel; and 3) thinner/lighter. The shape of the knife seems to be a Western shape, so there's not difference there. Does that about sum it up?

Given the above, these seem pretty similar to custom Western knives, which often have a similar or lower price. For example, you will note that my chef's knives don't have a bolster, which is often the case with Western custom knives. My knives are also made of super-hard cast dendritic steel, and Western custom knives are often made of special metals. The main difference I can see is that my knives are extra-thick (definitely thicker than a Wusthhof) and the Japanese knives are most often thin. People will differ in whether they prefer a heavy knife or a light one (I like heavy) and one can always, of course, prefer one specialty metal over another. When I go to Japanese-Knife.com and search for "gyutou," the knives don't look all that exotic.

Not sure about needing the bolster to balance the knife. I though a full tang and a properly weighted handle took care of that.

[russ parsons]

no, gyutous are not radically different in profile, as santokus are. they are more similar to the old french chef's knives rather than the german ones (not as much belly). to me, they do feel radically different in terms of the thin blade, which seems to cut much more exactly.

personally, i find steel recipes to be highly overrated. of the knives i tried, all of them seemed to have very good blades. i wouldn't pay much attention to the various mixtures and rockwell hardness numbers (but then, i'm not a knife geek; i'm a food geek; wine geek; music geek; mystery geek).

and sam, if you can find really well-made custom chef knives for in the $100-$150 range, that's really great. who do you get them from?

[winesonoma]

no, gyutous are not radically different in profile, as santokus are. they are more similar to the old french chef's knives rather than the german ones (not as much belly). to me, they do feel radically different in terms of the thin blade, which seems to cut much more exactly.

personally, i find steel recipes to be highly overrated. of the knives i tried, all of them seemed to have very good blades. i wouldn't pay much attention to the various mixtures and rockwell hardness numbers (but then, i'm not a knife geek; i'm a food geek; wine geek; music geek; mystery geek).

and sam, if you can find really well-made custom chef knives for in the $100-$150 range, that's really great. who do you get them from?

←

We had a disscusion hare on getting custom knives that seems to have lost steam. I beleive the knives were Kramer. http://www.bladesmiths.com/index.htm. I'll try and find the site. Forum is here http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=38162&hl=

[Octaveman]

personally, i find steel recipes to be highly overrated. of the knives i tried, all of them seemed to have very good blades. i wouldn't pay much attention to the various mixtures and rockwell hardness numbers (but then, i'm not a knife geek; i'm a food geek; wine geek; music geek; mystery geek).

and sam, if you can find really well-made custom chef knives for in the $100-$150 range, that's really great. who do you get them from?

←

RETREVR can easily expand upon this but in a nutshell, rockwell hardness ratings are very important in choosing a knife. A low rating (55-58) means the edge retention will not be that good therefor you'll end up spending more time sharpening. And since the metal is softer, more metal will be removed during sharpening. A higher rockwell rating (high 59-63)allows for better edge retention and metal strength. I think you can also get a sharper edge with a higher rated knife.

The blades metal recipe also highly influences strength, edge retention and durability. There are carbon white steels and carbon blue steels, carbon knives sandwiched between stainless steel, carbon steel sandwiched between iron, all stainless steel (VG10 being the best) and they all have pro's and con's to each. I highly recommend visiting Knife Forums.com and check out the "In the Kitchen" forum. There is a plenty of information that explains everything you could possibly want to know. Another great resource is Foodie Forums.com. This forum has great reveiws of various Gyuto's and also discussed Japanese knives in general.

As far as buying these knives, there is plenty of brands with really good western-style knives at Korin.com (Japanese-Knife.com) for under $150. There are knives to fit any budget. Some more places to check out:

Kikuichi.net

Watanabe Blade.com

Japanese Chefs Knife.com

Japan Woodworker.com

On these sites is a wealth of information that explains for example what white steel is and what blue steel is, which steels are harder than others, which knives are easier to sharpen, which knives are appropriate for the average user v. pro chef, etc. It's all out there, you just gotta look.

Cheers,

Bob

[slkinsey]

and sam, if you can find really well-made custom chef knives for in the $100-$150 range, that's really great. who do you get them from?

Right here, to make one example. You can get a super-badass 9.5 inch K6 for $161 US, which is substantially less expensive than the $210 9.4 inch Misono UX10 gyutou. In fact, I am in communication with the maker right now, so stay tuned for a "limited edition eGullet Society knife" in the next month or two.

[russ parsons]

It's all out there, you just gotta look.

i've looked, believe me. and i've shopped and i've chopped. for about 3 months now. what i've found is, for the regular user who is buying a high-end knife, all of the steels offered are very good. very hard knives hold an edge better, but they are harder to touch up. softer steels (like the wusthoff i've used for the last 25 years) lose their edges more quickly, but clean up with a quick steeling.

i'm not saying there is no difference, it's just that it doesn't seem to be a practical difference. to me, it's like wine lovers arguing about clonal selection and rootstock.

[slkinsey]

Russ, I agree. There is definitely something to be said for the soft carbon steel knives that dull quickly but sharpen back up to razor sharpness equally quickly. It all depends on the user's preferences. If your Wusthoff seems soft to you, try an old Sabatier carbon steel knife.

My dendritic steel knives are super hard, which is great... but I still wish they weren't so hard when it comes to sharpening time, and as a result have occasionally let them get a little dull on me.

[russ parsons]

If your Wusthoff seems soft to you, try an old Sabatier carbon steel knife.

oh, i've got a whole rackful of old sabatiers. did you buy yours from lee valley? i bought a couple hundred dollars worth years ago (and at $15 to $20 a knife, that's saying something). still, my favorite paring knife is an old sabatier made between the wars. i ordered it on the owner's recommendations, who said he couldn't explain why but it was the knife he reached for most often. i feel the same way.

[jackal10]

I agree with slkinsey. It depends what you are used to.

I routinely use soft full carbon knives, and routinely steel them before doing anything, even chopping an onion. Its easy to feel when they have lost their edge, and easy to restore it then and there with few strokes on the steel that lives in the knife block. Its automatic, needs no thought, and doesn't even affect the work flow.

I don't steel my harder steel knives - it takes much more work to have any effect, and seems to need more care. Its also more of a production, getting out the stone etc... I only sharpen them before a major event, or when I have lots of spare time and so, because I only occaisionally do a full sharpen on them, most of the time they are not as sharp as the softer carbon steel knives. Thus for everyday cooking, at least for me, full carbon wins.

Edited December 1, 2004 by jackal10 (log)