Cimbali vs. La Marzocco, etc.

[glenn]

I was told by a barista that Cimbali is better. This seems contrary to other advice I've been given. Is it a fair question to ask which one's better? I'm talking 1 or 2 group machines.

I've decided to hold off for now on serving espresso at my cafe (assuming all the i's get dotted and the deal goes through.) I'll have enough to keep me occupied with my primary items, grilled cheese sandwiches and milkshakes. And it will give me a chance to judge whether or not my store will bring enough interest in espresso drinks to justify the zillion dollars it costs.

Instead, I've decided that I wanna get the coffee thing right. I'd love to hear opinions on the best way to approach this. This same barista told me it wasn't necessary to get a double hopper grinder for coffee. Again, this runs contrary to other advice I was given. He recommended a Bunn G3. No? AS for brewers, everyone seems to agree on the plumbed Fetco. Yes? Finding the right company for a coffee roaster is another issue I need to tackle. It's tough not being a connoisseur, and I'm the first to admit that is not my strongpoint. While I know a good cup of joe when I have it, I'm really no good in discerning the fine intricacies - acidity and body and all that good stuff.

It's a small place - 20 seats - and my business plan projects about 150 covers/day. Thanks for any advice.

[m(a)ce]

Hi.

So I have been wondering the same thing. I have worked on pavoni's (actually pulling shots) for a little while and spent a several years on cimbalis (automatics). I have used 2 & 4 group machines. The 4 groupers are workhorses. My main concern on a 2 group cimbali was when it got busy and you pull repeated shots and keep steaming milk, it would crash. I define this as tank pressure dropping causing it to automatically refill and need time to reheat. Drag.

I like the idea of separate boilers i the marzocco & the fail safes.

Marzoccos are said to be make great coffee (most barista competitions use them along with some of the better cafes).

Get at least a 2 grouper-- when you get busy you'll need it and it will help you maintain critical head h20 temperature. Also if 1 group goes down you'll be able to run shots until you can rebuild/repair it.

I'll keep you posted if I get a chance to check out the marzocco.

I think part of your decision might be $ and customer concetration.

For espresso grinders I would recommend Rancillio MD-80s. Workhorses. Hold the grind well. Relatively easy to clean (very important) and easy to change burrs.

For brewed coffee go the G3 & fetco path. Solid.

Remember to have your equipment on a softener/filter set up. You don't want to have to have your machine totally rebuilt in the ear future.

Let me know if you have any more questions!

[glenn]

Thanks m(a)ce. So you don't think a double hopper blender is necessary?

[Kyle_Larson]

Um....a La Marzocco is better. Just check out the stats on both sites. I've talked to baristi the world around, La Marzocco is better.

[phaelon56]

The best and most consistent espresso shots are achieved when there is little variation in the temp of the brewing water while the shot is being pulled and the temp should be at a very specific level (usually 199 to 203 degrees depending on bean, blend and or preferences). This is a fact based on years of research by pioneers such as Ernesto Lilly and also a great deal of practical field testing and experimentation by current practitioners.

La Marzocco is at present (with the exception of the new Synesso Cyncra machines that have just come on to the market) the only espresso machine brand that has dual boilers.

Here's why it's important:

Single boiler machines use a piece of copper supply line that sends water to the brew heads and heat that water by passing the tube through the steam boiler where the surrounding water heats the water in that tube. The steam boiler must be kept very hot - over the boiling point in order to create pressure. This design is known as HX or heat exchanger. It works fairly well but when the machine has been idle for a period of time (ten minutes or longer) the water in the brew group supply tube gets too hot. When many shots are being pulled in a short amount of time the incoming water in the tube doesn't have a chance to heat up enough and the brew water can be too cold. There are techniques (usually called temperature surfing) whereby a skilled and experienced barista can compensate for this to a great degree but if you get really busy there's no way to get the water hot enough quickly enough - you must slow down the time between pulling shots.

It doesn't mean that one group machines are inherently bad - it's simply a design limitation that you have to be aware of. You can learn to work around the shortcoming but in a busy high volume cafe the two boiler design of la Marzocco is superior. It uses one boiler for steaming and a separate boiler for brewing. The brew boiler is quite large and a thermostat constantly adjusts the temperature. the amount of water pulled off for a shot is small - typically 1 to oz per single or double. Thus, the replacement water coming into the brew boiler gets heated to the correct level very quickly. The result is a machine that provides loads of steaming power and hot water for Americano's from the steam boiler but also lets you pull shot after shot at your busiest times with very consistent temperature and little temperature fluctuation.

That's not to say that it's an ideal design. The new Cyncra and a special "superstar" La Marzocco that has just become available improve on this by using and additional boiler to preheat the water before it enters the brew boiler. That improvement is enhanced by a PID controller (proportional integral derivative) - this is a digital device that provides tighter more stringent control over exact temperature and makes it easier to change or adjust temperature.

La Marzocco's cost more for a reason but their resale value is higher than other machines and holds the higher price for longer. I think Cimbali's and other well known respectable brands are more than likely every bit as reliable as La Marzocco's but there's a reason why nearly every high volume cafe in the US seems to use them. Let's not forget that it was the only brand of machine used in Starbucks locations for many years until they began the shift to superauto's. I don't like the way the 'bucks roasts their beans and brews their coffee but they never cheap out on equipment - they buy the best that's available and maintain them well.

If and when you add espresso to your operation you'll have to decide what's most important. If you expect a low to moderate volume and won't have a busy, busy rush for espresso drinks and also.... if you're motivated enough to learn the idiosyncrasies of single boiler heat exchanger machines.... you can make excellent drinks with one. If, OTOH, you'll be running around doing many things, won't really be dedicated to the art of becoming an accomplished barista and/or may have younger less experienced employees running the machine at times... your consistency will be improved with a La Marzocco.

I'm biased towards the Mazzer Super Jolly for an espresso grinder (aka Mazzer Brevetto, Rio Normale and Astoria has a model that is identical - they are all the same machine). The Rancilio and some others in its class are just as durable but the stepless adjustment collar on the Mazzer allows more precise grind adjustment than grinders with click stop detentes on the collar (I'm not sure if any brands other than mazzer have the stepless adjustment feature).

One option to consider is the La Marzocco Swift (if you're using a LM machine also). Purists will call it heresy to make this suggestion and they have a point: the Swift autodoses and auto tamps. It will make consistently good... perhaps very good shots on a properly maintained, adjusted and cleaned machine when the grind is set for proper shot pull time. It also has the advantage of being a dual hopper machine that will allow you to store and grind decaf and regular in the same grinder (means you buy only and it takes up a bit less counter space than two conventional grinders). It's a good choice if you have a variety of people working the espresso bar and are either unable to train to a high enough level to get consistent manual tamping from your baristas or have a really high customer volume. It also saves on coffee because there's almost no waste as there is int he traditional manual tamping process.

But.... and this is a big but.... a Swift will never allow you to produce the transcendent and truly spectacular shots that a good barista can create with traditional dosing and tamping. It's a compromise but one that many cafés accept. My current employers use the Swift and to be honest... it has improved consistency. We have at present about ten part time employees with varying skill levels, experience and motivation levels. Unlike some areas such as Seattle, it's difficult for in our area to get young people who look at the field of coffee and espresso as a career path. I'm planning to push for a traditional grinder to be available in our new cafe to do single original shots or alternate espresso blends (other than out standard house blend). I do feel like I'm missing something about the process when I use the Swift but I understand why we have them. To put it in perspective.... our Swift paid for itself in about one year just by the cost savings achieved from reduced coffee waste, not to mention that we get customers through the line faster. Also worth noting is the fact that upwards of 97% - 98% of our espresso drinks are milk based with the occasional Americano. Truly exceptional and transcendent shots are less capable of being recognized and appreciated when diluted with milk. It's not a criticism just a fact (spoken by a guy who drinks his espresso diluted with 3 parts milk most of the time except when I"m testing shot quality).

[glenn]

Owen, I had to read that 3 times! All I ever wanted to know and then some. You've made me a believer.

Anyway, back to my world - coffee. I was trying to find the price of Ditting grinder and couldn't find a site that sold them on the web. Owen, you had recommended a reconditioned KF804 at one time. There were none on the Ditting website. What can I expect to pay for one of these and what, if any, other models are recommended? Is there a particular coffee server recommended.

[phaelon56]

Grinders: the rationale for choosing a Ditting is twofold

1) They last for 30 or 40 years if properly used and maintained (maintenance is minimal to say the least

2) It's a two stage grinder - it produces particles of such a consistent size that a slightly finer grind level can be used and this will yield better extraction - i.e. more flavor in the cup (recognizing that you don't want to grind too fine for drip coffee)

If Ditting has one then get from them. Call the phone number on their web site and inquire about availability - it's about $600 for a reconditioned unit and they're about $1200 - $1300 new. If you find a KF804 or KFR804 on eBay that is guaranteed to be in working condition and can snag it for $300 - $350 or so it's a good deal. If the burrs need replacement they're $199 but you can usually send them to Ditting and get a set of resharpened burrs instead for $99.

It takes up a minimal amont of counter space. You can switch to different blends and varietals and also grind your decaf all with the one grinder by using a non-hopper grinder. If you sell whole bean coffee by the pound a high percentage (likely 50% - 70%) of buyers will want the beans ground at time of purchase. The Ditting grinds one pound per minute - very quick.

We have a number of blends we serve for drip coffee and also a few varietals that we serve as such (still lots of education in this market to get people on board with straight varietals as a mainstay - blends rule in this neck of the woods). We grind and brew only on airpot at a time - the customer gets whatever is in the rotation at that moment unless they want to wait a few minutes for the next type. It seemed to me like an odd system when I encountered it but it works really well.