Why So Few Women Are Great Chefs ...

[Gifted Gourmet]

From a recent thread today at eGullet, here, it seems most expeditious to begin a "spin off" thread based upon a most interesting article by Daniel Rogov, prominent food critic/writer/raconteur of Ha'aretz newpaper.

Rogov's article

Why So Few Women Are Great Chefs , is an interesting, possibly even inflammatory, engaging read for anyone interested in this topic. Although we have seen somewhat similar topics here, I believe that it is specifically this particular article which will be most thought provoking and stir the greatest discussion.

In 1950 Fernand Point, the inventor of nouvelle cuisine and the teacher of such notables as Paul Bocuse, Jean Troisgrois and Alain Chapel, was asked why he had never agreed to accept a woman as a student. Point responded that "only men have the technique, discipline and passion that makes cooking consistently an art".

The Arguments Against Women Becoming Chefs

There are five major arguments, almost always supplied by male chefs, given in an attempt to explain the absence of women at the upper echelons of the profession. The first three of these factors are said to be related to the physiological differences between the sexes and the remaining arguments are almost always phrased in terms of psychology.

Do you agree on any of these arguments? Is anything valid factually or is this all merely old beliefs rearing their ugly heads once more?

After you have read this through, please feel free to pose any questions and offer any comments, either pro or con, on the concept. Rogov, as he likes to be known, has generously offered to field questions and reply to your thoughts!

[Timh]

I think the reality of todays industry soundly refutes this, even during this dinausaurs' time this issue would be debateable. What's with the whole notion of "cuisine gran mere"? The kitchen is the the great equality in the workplace.

[Carrot Top]

Why why why...GG? Why do you have to get us all going again...

I have been really trying to not respond to this but you are making it impossible. ( )

To reduce the inane fervor that undoubtedly will ensue in my writing if I have to start, I'll limit my response initially to two questions.

What parameters are we using here to define 'great chef'? Chef in a bistro? Chef in a temple of gastronomy? Is it neccesarily in Europe? Do we have the same sort of categories of chefs here in the States as holds in the more traditional Europe? Working chef? Executive chef? Chef-owner?

That was question number one, by the way.

Question number two. Who would you say America's most accomplished woman chef is? How many do we have? Who else is there on the list of known media chefs that is female? What percentage do these women comprise of all the 'great chefs' that are on the list, male and female? Is their number approximately equal to the same number of top successful women in other professions?

That was question number two.

At least here is a starting point. Something real and solid to work with and start the discussion.

Please note that from my viewpoint, I don't care to be quoted academic studies nor journalistic ones. Of course other people may feel differently, but I would be more interested to hear what you all have seen and experienced with your own eyes, in your own life.

Do I have a viewpoint as a female chef that left the business? (Not as a 'great' one mind you, but a successful one anyway). Sure. But it will be more interesting to hear the world of ideas on it all...

Edited October 10, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[FaustianBargain]

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

[Carrot Top]

Did we finally agree on coffee or strong spirits, Lalitha?

(You have given me a smile with imagining your totally imaginary piteous state...)

[Carrot Top]

Rogov, I'm curious as to what you can tell us about the world of women chefs in Israel....your writings were initiated with 'France' in mind (unless I did not read closely enough which is always possible). Where does Israel stand both culturally and with actual perceived opportunities in this whole thing?

[chromedome]

She may not rank among the world's great chefs, but my boss at my night job is a mainstay of Alberta's fine-dining scene. We're celebrating 24 years' steady growth this month, certainly many lifetimes for an independantly-owned fine dining restaurant.

And our food is pretty damned good.

[Moopheus]

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

←

"Now we see the violence inherent in the system!"

Now that I think about it, at the school where I work, more than a few of the chef-instructors are women, and more than a few of them are French, but off the top of my head I don't think there's any overlap between those two sets.

[Daniel Rogov]

Karen (Carrot Top), Hi....

First, apologies for time lag in my response but being on the "other side" of the Atlantic causes a significant time lag between us....

To answer your questions in the order in which they were put.

(1a) In defining the term "great chef", two words need clarification. I used the term "great" in the sense ofeminent, distinguished, illustrious and possibly even important (important in the specific sense of the influence he/she has on colleagues and/or diners). I used the word "chef" to describe that individual who is in charge of and gives direction to the staff and culinary quality and style of a restaurant. Continuing with part one of your question – most traditional bistros have a minimal staff, certainly not a brigade, and I would suggest that most of those in charge of those kitchens are cooks and not chefs. In a more modern sense, of course, the bistro can be a far more prestigious establishment with far more than traditional dishes. In such cases the person in charge is indeed a chef.

(1b) I smile a bit when thinking about a "temple of gastronomy" – to me a fine neighborhood bistro, trattoria or even tavernna can be a temple of gastronomy. Nothing to do with prestige or price in that one.

(1c) As to categories – indeed the categories within the world of chefdom are quite similar across national lines – and certainly the chef-entrepreneur can exist in the USA as well as in France (e.g. in the USA, Wolfgang Puck, in France and other locations nowadays, Alain Ducasse). The executive chef, the chef-owner also exist in most locations. As to the chef de partie, the saucier, the pastry chef, the dessert chef, the conditore, etc.... much the same system prevails.

(1d) Concluding from the above, the "great chef" is thus one who has a notable impact on his/her own kitchen, on the kitchens of others, on the dining habits of those who come to dine at their establishment.

(1e) As to "media chefs" – those do not enter into my formula in the same way that writers of cookbooks do not. Julia Child may have had an enormous impact (positive, negative or not at all, depending on one's perspective) but she was not a chef. As to most of those who appear on television – some are indeed chefs, others are poseurs, but it is not their television appearances that qualify them in my book as great or even mediocre chefs – simply good or bad teacher/entertainers.

(2) As to America's most accomplished woman chef, I would have to list Alice Waters, and that partly because of her own restaurant, partly because of the influence on American dining patterns in a very broad way.

(2a) Lists of "great chefs" is always somewhat of an ego trip, perhaps more for the critic than for the world of cuisine. I won't therefore fall into that self-enhancing trap, but will say that among America's most accomplished women chefs I would have to include in recent years Anne Rosensweig, Monique Barbeau, Johanne Killeen and Elizabeth Terry.

(2b) I have not done a statistical analysis of whether the number of top women chefs is approximately equal to the number of women at the top of other professions. I would have to say though that from personal experience, I think there are a great many more women in law, medicine, academe, psychology, etc than in the culinary arts. I think women are woefully under-represented at the top level of nearly all professions but cannot help but think as well that they are even more poorly represented in the professional kitchen.

(3) Finally (at least for now, for I look forward to continuing this dialogue), at this point in time, not one of the top twenty restaurants in Israel has a female in charge of the kitchens as chef. Two of the countries most talented and creative chefs, Tamar Blay (formerly of Arcadia) and Dahlia Renaud (formerly of her eponymous bistro) are now working as "consultants". It should be mentioned that at least 15 male chefs, also now currently unemployed, are earning ther keep in this way.

From my own experience, a large part of the Israeli public is still rather conservative on such matters and although many will gladly accept women in "amami" (that is to say simple, working class) restaurants, they prefer to shake the hand of a male chef when paying the bill in a more prestigious restaurant. From another perspective, there are a great many women who serve as either sous-chefs or chefs de partie in the better restaurant. Part of the problem for those women is that few are willing to take them on as full chefs in other restaurants. More than that, should these women want to open their own establishments they find that the banks are very hesitant to lend money to them, almost invariably insisting that they have at least two male partners.

[Daniel Rogov]

Moopheus, Hello...

Indeed it is interesting, perhaps even symptomatic of the problems to which I refer, that many women are employed in the role of chef-instructors in various schools. That is as true in Europe and Israel as in North America. I would suggest that this is true because whereas women are often hired on a full time basis, the salaried employees of most such schools do not earn a great deal of money. I cannot speak about America but in Europe and Israel, the "star" chefs that come in to the schools from time to time to offer either a series of lectures or perhaps a course are sometimes paid more for single lectures than many of the salaried employees earn in a month. You are also correct in that most of the teachers at schools have little (often far too little) contact with the real world of cookery and restaurants.

[Daniel Rogov]

Lalitha, Hello..

With apologies, I do not know you or your posts well enough to know whether your comment about being oppressed was to be taken as metaphor, sarcasm, full humor or complete seriousness. Thus, forgive me if I am "preaching to the already converted" but many women who are beaten by their husbands accept that as part of their "just role in life". Those women may not perceive themselves as "oppressed" but ineed they are. As are the many women working in precisely the same jobs as men and receiving only 60-70% of the same salary. Etc........

[Sleepy_Dragon]

No argument from me about the article. For what it is worth, I do think this is going to change, I can see it in my class. The majority are women, some of them fresh out of high school, and in some cases, high school which included culinary programs. I wish I could have had their start, but I'll play my hand to the best of my ability from later in life.

It's one of the things about culinary school (well, with thanks to predecessors who fought for us go to school in the first place) which I think is an unquestionable improvement over the traditional apprentice system: many more power checks in place to prevent instructors from giving female students sexism-based grief.

I'd also include the notion of "brain-space" for lack of better terms. The more background crap one has to worry about, the less there is available to pursue something with a single-minded passion and focus. Not to say that it can't or hasn't been done, but it's not something to disregard as a thing of the past. That kind of thing really does affect whether or not you can focus on perfect julienne.

I'm also reminded of Jacques Pepin mentioning in his autobiography regretting not doing more for the black cooks he came across, especially as their communities were where he was able to find all the lovely innards and offal he wanted to cook but just couldn't find anywhere else in the states.

Pat

Edited October 10, 2004 by Sleepy_Dragon (log)

[Boris_A]

Maybe it's worth noting here that Italy has the highest number of Michelin star-rated women chefs. At the one star level, it's around 50%, I believe to remember.

Maybe because Italian cuisine (or cookery, for the "Frenchies") in general does not fit in the paradigma of "creativity" and "innovation", which is so much heralded in our times. The role of the chef is simply not that attractive that males tend to develop that amount of ambition there, I suppose. Other explanations?

[Daniel Rogov]

Boris, Hello...

It would be interesting to know how you arrive at the figure that about 50% of the one-starred chefs in Italy are women. The Michelin guide lists the names only of those chefs who have earned three stars and then only lists their last names. If you could supply a source for your data, it would be much appreciated. My own experience in the last eight years dining in approximately 280 of the best restaurants in Italy has been that only 11 of the chefs were women.

At the same time, albeit a bit off topic, let me disagree with you more than a bit about your suggestion that Italian cuisine is less innovative or creative than French. My own experience has been that those terms are applicable to fine restaurants and fine chefs everywhere. It is true that you will find little innovation at simple trattorias in Italy but that is also true at the simple neighborhood bistros of France, and that no matter how excellent they are, for one of the roles of such places is precisely the reproduction of excellent tried and trued dishes. On the upper level, however, whether in Verona, Venice, Firenze, Roma, Sorrento or wherever else you travel or live in Italy, you will find no less creativity than in Paris, Lyon, Epernay, Nice or Collognes au-Mont-d''Or. Or, for that matter, the Napa Valley, Seattle, the Boston area, Atlanta or New York.

[Gifted Gourmet]

On the upper level, however, whether in Verona, Venice, Firenze, Roma, Sorrento or wherever else you travel or live in Italy, you will find no less creativity than in Paris, Lyon, Epernay, Nice or Collognes au-Mont-d''Or.  Or, for that matter, the Napa Valley, Seattle, the Boston area, Atlanta or New York.

←

Which is not completely unlike the comments in the Observer article on Per Se and Thomas Keller which I read earlier today ... creativity is the same no matter what the location, it appears.

If Per Se were in France, it would be regarded as a top player. I have no doubt it would have three Michelin stars and Keller would be spoken of alongside the likes of Pierre Gagnaire, Michel Bras and Marc Veyrat. But because he is in the US, he stands proud of the pack. He has to be the biggest, the most accomplished.

[Katherine]

No argument from me about the article. For what it is worth, I do think this is going to change, I can see it in my class. The majority are women, some of them fresh out of high school, and in some cases, high school which included culinary programs. I wish I could have had their start, but I'll play my hand to the best of my ability from later in life.

It's one of the things about culinary school (well, with thanks to predecessors who fought for us go to school in the first place) which I think is an unquestionable improvement over the traditional apprentice system: many more power checks in place to prevent instructors from giving female students sexism-based grief.

Pat

←

I wouldn't be so confident that the sheer numbers of females in training would have any effect on the power structure. While I have a degree in culinary arts, I have been working on a degree in linguistics. I can tell you that at the undergraduate level, all the students are female, but when you look at higher prestige university professorships, you see that no females are hired for these positions.

[arielle]

Quoting Daniel Rogov's article:

"Even though the word for cook, le cuisinier has its feminine counterpart, la cuisiniere, there is no feminine counterpart to le chef."

"- The physical work required of the chef is too difficult for most women.

- Because of their need and desire to have and raise children, women are not suited to the long hours required of the chef. "

"...because these roles have traditionally been devalued and that because most women still cook at home they will resent the idea of cooking as a career for "as modern as they may conceive themselves, they still perceive cooking as a female domestic task"."

"The sad but simple truth is that women have not become great chefs is because the role has not been available to them."

First of all, the designation 'le chef' is applicable to all top management positions in the French workforce, in this instance you are referring to 'le chef de cuisine', but the title is equally applicable to ' le chef de l'usine' (factory manager), 'le chef de l'entreprise' (the manager of a business) etc. What we are seeing is a continuation of linguistic heritage......in certain cases political correctness has come to influence the French language...if ever the President was female, she would be referred to as 'Madame la Presidente', but there are many other professional designations where the masculine form of the noun remains (eg. professeur) but where 'la' is placed before it instead of 'le'. I think that you would find that many females working in French kitchens would be referred to as 'la chef'.....

As to the 'five reasons', I think that you dealt with some of them relatively well....but others.....

I don't know how much time you have spent in an industrial kitchen, if you have any idea about what conditions can be like in them, but I can assure you that they are very, very stressful on your body. My husband comes home some days and we would both swear that he had lost 5lb from working a 15hour day in nearly 40 degrees celcius heat. Aside from the temperatures, the job is very physical: have you ever made enough bearnaise sauce to feed 150 people? You see shat it does to your 'whisking' forearm! As much as I don't want to say it, most chefs end up with their hands and arms destroyed from cuts and burns, and it's not so sightly. Men usually don't care about this, but most women do (I've collected a few scars from an active childhood, but I don't know that I would be pleased to have quite that many). Further, to assert that women used to do this 100 years ago is to ignore the fact that they often were left in poor health, and with injuries from lifting heavy items, working long hours etc. It's not that women cannot perform this work, but I do agree that many of them would find it very difficult.

Many women would not choose to follow this profession because of the fact that they wish to have relationships and families. I can assure you that if a woman wanted to have children, and did not have a partner who was able to take on the greater part of the task of raising them (or a nanny), that woman could not be a chef. The hours are so very long, and it is not a job that you can just take maternity leave (or paternity leave) for 6 or 12 mths and then just slide back in to your old job.......Kitchens are not the only places that this has been a dilemma for women, of that I can assure you.

I think that if more women were apprenticing and actually had a *desire* to reach the top of their field, then more would be.........I think that there are relatively few women who actually care to do this job (more power to the ones who do!!!!!) and some of the female chefs who I know {one of whom has perhaps the deftest touch in her sauces, seasons to perfection, and can produce any cut of meat at the perfect tenderness} says that she struggled for some time within herself over her conflict of whether or not she considered that it was a "worthy" occupation.

As to your final comment.......I'm sorry, but I simply take offence to the concept that we are being oppressed (thanks Lalitha!) and prevented from doing anything. In our society (ie Western), if someone has sufficient drive, dedication and tenacity, be they male or female, they can be whoever they want to be, and no-one can stop them.

/rant over.

[Boris_A]

Hello Daniel

I' ve read the "close to 50%" number somewhere some years ago, but I wouldn't be too much surprised if the number was bogus and simply burnt in my memory. So unfortunately, I'm unable to indicate a data source now. But I'm going to try. The fact that you found only 11 female chefs out of roughly 280 chefs of the leading restaurants in Italy, that's a huge surprise for me. Well, at least Italy has (the only one?) a three star female chef in Canneto.

When I freqented Italian luxury restaurants more often, among the best (all two stars by then), at least three female chefs of that time instantly come to my mind: Signora Alciati of "Da Guido", Signora Cantarelli and the one of the Pinchiorri (can't remember the name). Obviously, there is a change. Let's not forget that in France, we had several three star female chefs at the time of F. Point, notably Mère Brazier running in parallel two restaurants with three stars (like A. Ducasse).

In the region I'm somewhat familiar with (Piedmont), I still see many female chefs in the kitchen of the good restaurants (starred or not). But admittedly, I never started to count. The rise of the successful male chefs to Italian TV stars (like Vissani) doesn't make the situation easier for women, I believe.

As for the "lacking creativity" in Italian cuisine, I aimed more at the public perception than at the real situation. Personally, I was never very much interested in this issue.

[Carrot Top]

This subject is so multi-layered that even in the initial attempts to sort it out, my brain feels like a Salman Rushdie novel (but without the sense of coherent organization that would hold the layers together).

One thought comes to mind, though...as a start.

This is a subject that will be difficult for many people to approach and discuss without risking offense to someone else unless the words are chosen incredibly carefully if one wishes to go beyond discussing it even superficially.

And it seems to me....that for the most part, when presented with this question of "Why are so few women great chefs?"...many people would shrug their shoulders and say...."Who cares? It's not my problem..."

What is it that makes you raise this question and subsequently in your reasoned argument, seemingly support and encourage the idea of more great women chefs, Rogov?

Is it a simple question of fairness?

Is it that you believe the existing system and what it offers would be enhanced by the addition of more women in these positions?

If so, do you think they offer the same thing as men chefs or do you feel their offerings have a different sense or savor?

Or is it something personal that you have seen or felt....

I am asking these questions to find the nugget of "Why should I care..." for those who might ask the question and then walk away...and also out of pure curiosity.

It is unusual for a male person to be interested in the development of the female person in this particular way.

[Daniel Rogov]

Arielle, Hello....

You take umbrage to my hypthesis that women, at least in some ways are oppressed. Assuming that you are correct and my hypothesis is wrong, how do we account for the fact that throughout the western world, including governmental agencies, women in the same positions and with the same experience as men receive less pay; that in a world where just a tad over 50% of the population is composed of women that far less than that percentage are represented in city, state or national governments; that of top positions in universities, hospitals, law firms, over 80% of the "leaders" are men.

If you assume that women do not want these positions or equal salaries, there is merit to your argument. I do not make those assumptions. Perhaps I am wrong.

[Daniel Rogov]

Karen, Hello….

Albert Camus once observed that "the only important question is suicide". He was wrong. The only important questions are questions that deal with morality. And for me, I go along with John Rawl's definition in that "there is nothing difficult at all in defining morality. Morality is fairness"

Indeed,I do believe that we, collectively and as individuals would be enhanced were women more equally represented in many positions, including the top levels of chefdom. It is not necessarily that women collectively would offer "a different sense or savor" to the culinary world but that this sense and savor would be addedto and supplemented individually and in a somewhat more personal sense.

On a more pragmatic level, from personal experience I do believe that women (collectively and individually in this case) might well add a touch of more controlled ego to the culinary experience. There are moments – alas, quite a few moments – when I sit and talk with many male chefs, those in Israel, in Europe and on North America, and what I hear is too often ego out of control, the need to project the essence of "the superstar". On the other hand, when meeting with many women chefs what comes across is a more healthy ego reflection – the "I want to, I can and I will" attitude rather than the "it is due me because of my inherent genius". Not so much modesty perhaps as a kind of gentility, a reflection more of the inner rather than the outer self. My bias? Perhaps.

As to the ultimate "why should I care" - simple enough. As/if the world becomes more egalitarian it cannot help but become more gentle. And that is something sadly lacking in today's world. Will women add specifically to our culinary pleasure? As the talented and creative men add, so will they. That, and the aspect of fairness involved are quite enough for me.

[arielle]

Daniel, hi!

I'm not suggesting that sexism or racism or ageism does not exist in this world. Not at all - I have seen people who have been unjustly prejudged based upon these things, or because they were homosexual.

What I question is that you are applying past practices and the attitudes of chefs who, although they are very highly regarded in the culinary field, are nonetheless part of the 'Old Guard'. If you had asked Monsieur Point if a cute little English boy, who likes to 'throw simple, tasty things together' and grin at a camera, could or should be considered a 'top' chef.....I doubt greatly if he would say 'Mais oui, c'est un homme!'

Sexism is still part of our culture, and yes, you are right: women are under-represented in many of the professions, and when they are there, the wages that they receive are often not as high as those of men.

BUT, the truth is that there are also few women who are willing (or have partners who are willing for them to) sacrifice a family life for their careers. Unfortunately this means that at the least maternity leave in some extended form is necessary for them, which means that they lose a certain continuity in the advancement of their careers. Furthermore, I think that the perception that women wish to spend time with their partners and children, and are more inclined to insist on doing so than their male counterparts is not a fallacy. This is a *choice* that they make personally, not one they are forced in to.

This is essentially why I have a problem with your article. I find the overall tone and thoughts expressed merely perpetuates the paternalistic attitudes of men who think that women are the second sex, and only suited to performing certain tasks. As much as I think that it is great for men to support the cause for 'equality' of the sexes in attitudes and practices as well as in theory, it would have been better for you to approach it with a tone less suggestive of a kind man, generously devoting himself to help the weak.

If that was not your intention, I don't mean to have offended you, but this was simply the impression that I got from your writing.

[Carrot Top]

Bravo.... to your answer, Rogov.

There is much to chew on here.

And to muse on in between in order to taste what has been chewed.

Will be back for more after this is digested....

[Daniel Rogov]

Arielle, Hi Again...

Your response much appreciated. Let me state loudly and clearly though that kindness plays no motive whatever in my writing or thinking .. simply the presentation and discussion of what I perceive as a series of injustices.

Perhaps as much as I am a critic of restaurants and wine, I am even more of a social critic - that is to say, not the one setting out to right the wrongs but simply to observe and report on them, hopefully bringing them to wider attention. I do not believe that any man or group of men can "give" women their freedom or their equality. That freedom and equality is inherently there and it will be women who take it and not men who "give" it.

I remind myself as well that freedom is far more than "another word for nothin' left to lose". It is however part of freedom to voluntarily and with full knowledge give up parts of that freedom in order to exchange for other things, hopefully those things no less moral or fair than freedom itself. The key words in the preceding sentence being, of course "voluntarily and with full knowledge"

Edited October 10, 2004 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Carrot Top]

Okay,Rogov....so let's see if I have the premise right.

What you are saying (in taking up the question of why so few women are 'great chefs') is that you are hungry for a great meal.

And that great meals are few and far between.

Therefore, whomever is capable of it, should be attempting to make a great meal...

And since women comprise somewhere around fifty percent of the population, they should be out there making these great meals too....through the vocation of Chef...so that these meals can be available to the public.

I can accept that premise.

Edited October 10, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)