Home-made Pie Crust: Tips & Troubleshooting

[helenjp]

I tried making this years and years ago, but had considerable trouble getting it to hold a shape - would you consider doing a tutorial, please?

[The Old Foodie]

I tried making this years and years ago, but had considerable trouble getting it to hold a shape - would you consider doing a tutorial, please? 

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I haven't made them myself for ages, so I'd have to have a practice run first!

The best thing to do is to have a good "play" with the dough. It is possible to make free-form coffiins - they always bulge out a bit at the sides, but that is the way that you can tell authentic hand-raised pies - see the genuine Melton Mowbray pies. It is much easier to "raise" them using a greased jar as the mould.

You need to do the modelling while the dough is still slightly warm (not too hot or it wont hold its shape, not too cool or it is too hard to model).

Also of course it is easier to make small, individual size pies first.

Final option is to use a springform tin - works well, and you can un-spring it towards the end of cooking, after the shape is "set", to brown it. Very elaborate decorative pie moulds used to be used. Ivan Day's site has some lovely examples.

Janet

[prasantrin]

Poor jackal10. No one remembers his hot water crust demo (it's a cut-and-paste in the first post of the topic) from many moons ago. I remember it well, because I always wanted to make that pork pie--it looked so good! Unfortunately, I am too lazy to make anything like it, other than sausage rolls with ready-made puff pastry.

[Norman Walsh]

Poor jackal10.  No one remembers his hot water crust demo (it's a cut-and-paste in the first post of the topic) from many moons ago.  I remember it well, because I always wanted to make that pork pie--it looked so good!  Unfortunately, I am too lazy to make anything like it, other than sausage rolls with ready-made puff pastry.

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No disrespect but I thought the crust demo pie looked a bit pathetic.

I have made quite a lot of these pies trying freeform, pie tin with removable bottom, a wooden dolly and moulded around a jar.

My prefered method is the jar.

Use an ordinary jar grease it then flour it.

Roll the dough into a thick circle, turn the jar upside down place the pastry on the bottom then mould it up the sides.

Stick it in the fridg for a few minutes where it will stiffen up then take it out and ease of the jar.

My recipe for the hot water pastry is:

300grams flour

96grams lard

270grams water

5grams Salt

Weigh out the flour and add the salt.

Put the water and lard into a pan and bring to the boil.

Pour it into the flour and mix well.

I generally use a wooden spoon to mix at first as the dough is pretty hot.

This dough also freezes o/k, then to use just defrost and knead a bit and off you go.

Norm

[prasantrin]

No disrespect but I thought the crust demo pie looked a bit pathetic.

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It could just be me, but using the word "pathetic" always implies at least a little disrespect, doesn't it?

It most definitely looked homemade, but I like my pie crusts on the dark side, so I thought it looked quite good.

fatmat's demo might suit you more. His pork pie is prettier. I'd eat that one, too.

[helenjp]

This is shameful! I notice that I was impressed last year, and did nothing about it then either!

I see Adam says to let the completed and filled piecrust cool and harden before baking. From what I vaguely remember of drunkenly lurching pies, that sounds like a good tip.

I think I probably also tried to thin the crust too much.

Darn it, a person's honor is at stake, pie must be made!

[Norman Walsh]

I honestly did not mean to be disrespectful and I must apologise my wording was a bit crude.

I served an apprentiship in catering before a career at sea as a chef and in my early days this was often said to me: "Norman thats pathetic get a grip"

I always done better the next time.

Norm

[Terrasanct]

I'm always amazed by the amount of knowledge to be found at egullet. No wonder I love this place!

[Tepee]

Yum! I agree Jack and Fatmat's pies look soooooo good! Come on, Rona (you're a search whiz), let's make this.

[prasantrin]

Norm--no problema. I know professionals tend to use harsher language than us poor (hypersensitive ) home cooks. I just felt sorry for jackal10's poor pie. It's feelings were hurt, doncha know!

Tepee--but wherever would I get the jellied stock with which to fill the hole? Would it be as good without the jellied stock? I love meat pies, but if I'm going to make it for the first time, I want it to be good!

I could just make the crust and stuff it with apples or something. But as I understand it, hot water crusts don't make the best crusts for anything but meat pies. Maybe I could put some of my leftover pot roast with sauce in there?

Before looking for jackal10's demo, I knew I had seen a beautiful pork pie with hot water crust. It was the innards that were beautiful--you could see the jellied stock so clearly. But jackal10's pie's jellied stock wasn't so easily seen, and though you could see fatmat's jellied stock, I knew that wasn't the right one, either. I finally found it here.

[jackal10]

If there is a pie challenge, then I will try and make a better one...Fatmat's is really good, but TP will win since she is much neater and her pastrywork is really good.

Dickinson and Morris is about the only piemaker left in Melton. Who else has the tradition of Pork Pie for breakfast on Christmas day?

Jellied stock: ideally from boiling bones, but otherwise stock plus gelatine.

You can leave it out..

Edited November 13, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[helenjp]

Rona, find a real butchery and ask for "tonsoku" (pig foot) or even "tonkotsu" (pork bones). If you tell them you will come back the next day if they prefer, it makes their life easier. In any case, they may have to order the trotter(s) in for you.

A Japanese site mentions ordering them, and getting a small bag with about 500g of trotters, split vertically.

Your latest link mentions chicken and pork together - that sounds good.

[highchef]

question? Could this crust be used for any savory pie? Like a beef pot pie (stew, basically) or chicken pot pie? I know they'd have to be pretty dry, and what gravy there was would have to be very thick, but I find regular pie crust just don't hold up well when I want to make a pot pie. Just a thought.

And if the answer is that they won't hold up, I wonder if anyone has thought of, or tried something not so ornamental as a malange' of game birds, but of just pressed duck breast, or even barely wet pulled pork. I may be talking sacrilage here....don't want to piss off the traditionalist.

[binkyboots]

go Scottish!

a hot water and lard crust is traditional for scotch pies, macaroni pies, bean and potato pies and steak pies.

a good recipe for scotch pie can be found here and the others are fairly intuitive! for macaroni pie start with a thickish macaroni cheese (leftovers are perfect) and just bake as directed in the scotch pie recipe.

I love hot water crust, tonight we are having bean and potato pies for our dinner (I'll try to take pictures, they are delicious)

Who else has the tradition of Pork Pie for breakfast on Christmas day?

we do, we all love pork pie for Christmas breakfast... I made our own last year (from rcmb) and it was lovely, I decorated the crust with pigs cut from the pastry scraps

that, a few pickled things and some cheese.... mmm

[Joe Gerard]

With Thanksgiving here I am once again facing the prospect of watching my blind baked crusts meekly shrink off the sides of their pans until they form an amorphous mass of dough, destroying my decorative crimping efforts in the process.

I have tried reinforcing the dough by folding it under itself before crimping, overhanging the dough and adhering it to the outside of the pan, freezing the crust first, using pie weights or beans, etc.

Nothing works.

I need help - I'm getting tired of graham cracker crusts.

[RuthWells]

With Thanksgiving here I am once again facing the prospect of watching my blind baked crusts meekly shrink off the sides of their pans until they form an amorphous mass of dough, destroying my decorative crimping efforts in the process.

I have tried reinforcing the dough by folding it under itself before crimping, overhanging the dough and adhering it to the outside of the pan, freezing the crust first, using pie weights or beans, etc.

Nothing works. 

I need help - I'm getting tired of graham cracker crusts.

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Can we assume that you're doing your best to not stretch the dough as you fill the pan? That is a killer, right there. How long are you chilling/resting the dough after filling the pan and before baking?

[devlin]

With Thanksgiving here I am once again facing the prospect of watching my blind baked crusts meekly shrink off the sides of their pans until they form an amorphous mass of dough, destroying my decorative crimping efforts in the process.

I have tried reinforcing the dough by folding it under itself before crimping, overhanging the dough and adhering it to the outside of the pan, freezing the crust first, using pie weights or beans, etc.

Nothing works. 

I need help - I'm getting tired of graham cracker crusts.

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Not to guilt trip you or anything, but if you're baking pies only once or twice a year (thanksgiving, etc), you're probably not going to be completely happy with the results. You may need to practice pie making a bit more to be any good at it, especially the crust aspect.

Okay, that out of the way, you could try another sort of pastry dough which might help (a sweet, cookie dough crust might work better).

And I'd reiterate the questions Ruth asked. It's important not to stretch the dough as you fill the pan.

I've had the same problems, and I solved them after getting a fair amount of practice (more than once or twice a year), and by freezing the pie crust for at least an hour and playing around with pie weights/beans techniques. I use foil and beans, making sure the pan is filled a little over the top, the foil higher than the sides of the pan, and the beans pushed all the way up to the top and even a little higher. The foil, standing straight up around the edges will keep the beans in.

You might try blind baking a little hotter than many recipes call for and then lower the heat to the recipe requirement and baking another 5 or 10 minutes after you take the beans out, pricking the bottom crust.

[etalanian]

I agree - stretching the dough is probably the culprit.

When you roll the dough, it's best to start at the center, roll to the end, make a quarter turn of the dough and roll from the center again; repeat as necessary, being sure you have the rolling surface lightly floured just enough to keep the dough from sticking. And roll it out large enough so you have an edge to trim. Dust the top of the rolled dough and brush off all the excess flour, then fold it in half and gently pick it up, and ease it into the pan. But no stretching to make it fit.

Chill or freeze, line with oiled foil, weigh with dry beans or rice, and bake for 15 minutes. Remove foil and weights and continue baking until golden brown.

Good luck!

Eileen

[Toliver]

To help eliminate shrinkage, it was once suggested in another eGullet discussion to bake the pie shell upside down. Put the dough in your pie pan and place another (clean) pie pan inside the pie crust. Invert the two pans (turning them upside down) and bake them in the oven for the required amount of time. Gravity is your friend in this case.

[achevres]

To help eliminate shrinkage, it was once suggested in another eGullet discussion to bake the pie shell upside down. Put the dough in your pie pan and place another (clean) pie pan inside the pie crust. Invert the two pans (turning them upside down) and bake them in the oven for the required amount of time. Gravity is your friend in this case.

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I was already planning to do the upside-down method this week. I'm a pretty good pie baker, but also have trouble with the shrinking crust. I've done all the other things already to no avail.

[Joe Gerard]

With Thanksgiving here I am once again facing the prospect of watching my blind baked crusts meekly shrink off the sides of their pans until they form an amorphous mass of dough, destroying my decorative crimping efforts in the process.

I have tried reinforcing the dough by folding it under itself before crimping, overhanging the dough and adhering it to the outside of the pan, freezing the crust first, using pie weights or beans, etc.

Nothing works. 

I need help - I'm getting tired of graham cracker crusts.

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Not to guilt trip you or anything, but if you're baking pies only once or twice a year (thanksgiving, etc), you're probably not going to be completely happy with the results. You may need to practice pie making a bit more to be any good at it, especially the crust aspect.

Okay, that out of the way, you could try another sort of pastry dough which might help (a sweet, cookie dough crust might work better).

And I'd reiterate the questions Ruth asked. It's important not to stretch the dough as you fill the pan.

I've had the same problems, and I solved them after getting a fair amount of practice (more than once or twice a year), and by freezing the pie crust for at least an hour and playing around with pie weights/beans techniques. I use foil and beans, making sure the pan is filled a little over the top, the foil higher than the sides of the pan, and the beans pushed all the way up to the top and even a little higher. The foil, standing straight up around the edges will keep the beans in.

You might try blind baking a little hotter than many recipes call for and then lower the heat to the recipe requirement and baking another 5 or 10 minutes after you take the beans out, pricking the bottom crust.

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Well, I bake pies throughout the year but the majority are double crusts. I have a very reliable dough recipe that is easy to roll out. I always have plenty of overhang and try to be careful lifting the edges and dropping them rather than pushing them in. Double crust fruit pies are great if I do say so myself, but still no luck in the blind baking area.

I will give your suggestions a try and see how they work out.

Thanks.

[Joe Gerard]

To help eliminate shrinkage, it was once suggested in another eGullet discussion to bake the pie shell upside down. Put the dough in your pie pan and place another (clean) pie pan inside the pie crust. Invert the two pans (turning them upside down) and bake them in the oven for the required amount of time. Gravity is your friend in this case.

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Thanks for reminding me of this trick. I'll give it a shot this week as well.

[Darcie B]

Another thing to think about is what kind of fat you are using. If it's an all-butter crust it is more likely to shrink. Using part vegetable shortening can help.

[reenicake]

also, it may seem obvious but make sure you have enough dough to produce a nice crust. if it is rolled too thin or stretched to fit, it will tend to sink down. A good rule of thumb is one ounce of dough for every inch diameter of your pie or tart pan. When you roll, think even, don't think thin or big circle.

[helenjp]

I made 4 pies over the weekend, and found many of the hints very useful. (Filling - 1 batch of pork and spices; 1 batch of chicken, bacon, apples, curry spices - the flavor of the pork pies was outstanding, but my family, unused to this type of pie, rather prefered the lighter chicken/apple filling).

I'm sure that I didn't knead my pastry smooth on my first attempt, but the kneaded pastry was much more malleable. Cooling the formed crust - I cooled it in an unheated November kitchen for a couple of hours, but the second batch, cooled for a further 1-2 hours, were even more robust.

The finished pies were best 2-3 days after baking, when the flavors had mellowed, and the pastry had also softened just a little.