NY Times Article on Chinese Restaurants

[Laksa]

There's an interesting article in today's New York Times about Chinese restaurants in America. You need to be a registered user to read the NY Times online but registration is free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/22/dining/2...d=all&position=

As I was reading, at just about every turn, I thought to myself, wasn't that a recent topic of discussion on eGullet?

Some quotes:

There are now close to 36,000 Chinese restaurants in the United States, according to Chinese Restaurant News, a trade publication, more than the number of McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King franchises combined. What began in this country as exotic has become thoroughly American. A study by the Center for Culinary Development, a food product development company, found that 39 percent of children between the ages of 10 and 13 who were surveyed said Chinese was their favorite type of food, compared to only 9 percent who chose American.

Until 1965 Cantonese-speaking immigrants, mainly from the county of Toisan, dominated the industry and menus reflected a standard repertory of tasty but bland Americanizations of Cantonese dishes. But loosening immigration restrictions that year brought a flood of people from many different regions of China, starting "authenticity revolution," said Ed Schoenfeld, a restaurateur and Chinese food consultant.

[Pan]

Ed Schoenfeld is, of course, eatingwitheddie on eGullet, a most valued and valuable member. Thanks for the link, Laksa.

[=Mark]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/22/dining/22CHIN.html?8hpib

Requires free registration.

[formerly grueldelux]

I thought it was a pretty good article but one sentence marred it somewhat:

"[Chinese restauranteurs have been versatile enough] to feed sophisticated gourmands in NYC, less discriminating palates in small Southern towns and immigrant communities across the country."

Why not "less discrimnating palates in small towns"? Why small Southern towns? I'm not even from the South and it struck me as a little odd.

[Bux]

Why small towns if it comes to that? There is no shortage of really mediocre take out joints offering bad Chinese take out food in parts of New York City. I think he was just trying to extend a range and looking for a place few people would suspect an Ethnic Chinese community and a place distant from NYC in both geography and culture. He could easily have said Kansas, Nebraska or North Dakota.

[Fresser]

I thought it was a pretty good article but one sentence marred it somewhat:

"[Chinese restauranteurs have been versatile enough] to feed sophisticated gourmands in NYC, less discriminating palates in small Southern towns and immigrant communities across the country."

Why not "less discrimnating palates in small towns"? Why small Southern towns?  I'm not even from the South and it struck me as a little odd.

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Because the egocentric NYT food writer drips with conceit. This reflects the stereotypical (though I don't think typical) NYC attitude that believes Manhattan is the center of the universe.

[Yuki]

Is "egg foo yong" steamed eggs with some other chopped up ingredients?

[hzrt8w]

Is "egg foo yong" steamed eggs with some other chopped up ingredients?

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No. Egg foo yong = Egg omlette, eggs slightly fried in oil with chopped up ingredients.

[Gary Soup]

There's an interesting article in today's New York Times about Chinese restaurants in America.  You need to be a registered user to read the NY Times online but registration is free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/22/dining/2...d=all&position=

As I was reading, at just about every turn, I thought to myself, wasn't that a recent topic of discussion on eGullet?

Some quotes:

←

It sounds like a great exhibition. I've followed Indigo Som's blog for some time, and am on her mailing list, and enjoy Harley Spiller's contributions to Flavor & Fortune. However, I thought the article was somewhat shallow and New York-centric. Luxurious Chinese restaurants were the rage on the West Coast long before Shun Lee, and Sichuan cuisine in America didn't emanate from New York City (maybe east of the Rockies it did). Chow mein is alive and well, only what New Yorkers call "chow mein" is nearing extinction .

[Gary Soup]

No.  Egg foo yong = Egg omlette, eggs slightly fried in oil with chopped up ingredients.

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Seemed like they always had bean sprouts in them and were covered with a sticky gravy.

You can encounter dishes in China with the name "furong"(=hibiscus flower), pronounced "fuyong" in both Cantonese and Shanghainese dialects. They're braised dishes that have a lot of egg white, not whole egg, in them.

[Yuki]

In Cantonese, "foo yong" means delicate and soft things.

[Laksa]

Chow mein is alive and well, only what New Yorkers call "chow mein" is nearing extinction  .

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Aiyah! First it was Cantonese vs Sichuan/Hunan. Is it going to be East Coast Chinese vs. West Coast Chinese now?

I don't ever recall seeing "chow mein" on menus here in NY, so I don't know what it is.

In Australia, "chow mein" means fine wheat noodles deep fried to a stiff and crunchy bundle, kind like instant ramen but not as tightly packed, over which you pour a melange of seafood, chicken or pork and vegetables cooked in a thick soupy gravy. I've always thought of this as Cantonese chow mein. Do they serve this dish in Hong Kong?

And what is American chow mein?

[Dejah]

Laksa said:

"In Australia, "chow mein" means fine wheat noodles deep fried to a stiff and crunchy bundle, kind like instant ramen but not as tightly packed, over which you pour a melange of seafood, chicken or pork and vegetables cooked in a thick soupy gravy. I've always thought of this as Cantonese chow mein. Do they serve this dish in Hong Kong?"

This was what we served in my restaurant as "Cantonese Chow Mein". My version did not have a "thick soupy gravy". I did add a little stock to the meat/seafood/veg. mixture and thicken with slurry just before scooping onto the crispy noodles. The sauce stayed on this mixture, not soaked onto the noodles. I used thin dry egg noodles that we put into boiling water to soften, drain and kept cool until needed.

"And what is American chow mein?"

Not sure if prairie chow mein is the same as American, but our version is coasely shredded green cabbage, Spanish onion, celery, mushrooms and bean sprouts. This was stir-fried, thickend with cornstarch slurry, then topped with deep fried egg noodles.

We used to make the noodles in house, just eggs and flour. The dough is rolled out to about .5 cm thick, then into strips about 8 cm wide. Several strips were stacked together, then cut into .5 cm strands, dusted lightly with flour and deep fried. They were so good that we had a hard time keeping the staff from grabbing handfuls whenever they are close to the noodle bin.

Edited September 23, 2004 by Dejah (log)

[Gary Soup]

Aiyah!  First it was Cantonese vs Sichuan/Hunan.  Is it going to be East Coast Chinese vs. West Coast Chinese now? 

I don't ever recall seeing "chow mein" on menus here in NY, so I don't know what it is.

In Australia, "chow mein" means fine wheat noodles deep fried to a stiff and crunchy bundle, kind like instant ramen but not as tightly packed, over which you pour a melange of seafood, chicken or pork and vegetables cooked in a thick soupy gravy.  I've always thought of this as Cantonese chow mein.  Do they serve this dish in Hong Kong?

And what is American chow mein?

←

If you mean crunchy all the way through, as if deep-fried, I think that's what New Yorkers consider "chow mein". To me, it's reminiscent of school cafeteria stuff (though I think school cafeterias used to get it out of a big "La Choy" can). It was always topped with a gloppy soggy celery-laden topping with bits of chicken in it). This is the kind of "chow mein" that's thankfully becoming extinct, which is why you don't see it much on menus.

The "Hong Kong" (not Cantonese) style is somewhat similar, using the thin noodles, but is usually fried crunchy on the bottom but soft on the top. I used to hate it, but I've come to like it, especially when topped with a moist seafood topping, because of the melange of textures.

On the West Coast and in China, what is called chow mein (chao mian) is probably called lo mein (la mian) in New York. It uses a thicker noodle, and is always cooked soft. The other ingredients are added during the stir fry, not poured on top of the finished product.

When you buy the fresh-made noodles hereabouts, they come in three sizes: "Hong Kong Style" (very thin), "Regular" (medium) and "Shanghai Style" (very thick). I think the medium noodles are used throughout mainland China, though the Cantonese sometimes use the thin ones in soup, especially in "Wonton Noodle Soup" which has both wontons and noodles. (I think they call this "long soup" in Australia.) In Shanghai the medium noodles are usually used in soup, and chow mein may be made either with the medium or the thick, chewy Shanghai noodles.

[herbacidal]

If you mean crunchy all the way through, as if deep-fried, I think that's what New Yorkers consider "chow mein".  To me, it's reminiscent of school cafeteria stuff (though I think school cafeterias used to get it out of a big "La Choy" can).  It was always topped with a gloppy soggy celery-laden topping with bits of chicken in it).  This is the kind of "chow mein" that's thankfully becoming extinct, which is why you don't see it much on menus.

That's probably what most everyday non-Egulleteers consider chow mein.

The "Hong Kong" (not Cantonese) style is somewhat similar, using the thin noodles, but is usually fried crunchy on the bottom but soft on the top.  I used to hate it, but I've come to like it, especially when topped with a moist seafood topping, because of the melange of textures.

These tend to be egg noodles.

Edited September 23, 2004 by herbacidal (log)

[Gary Soup]

These tend to be egg noodles.

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You're right, I forgot that the northern noodles in China tend to be eggless. The fresh ones we get locally all have egg in them, regardless of size or "style".

[Gary Soup]

That's probably what most everyday non-Egulleteers consider chow mein.

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Not in the Bay Area. Every Chinese restaurant I know of has a "chow mein" section on the menu, and you'll always get the soft, pan fried noodles, unless it's described as "Hong Kong" style, and then it will be as I decribed it.

40 years ago the "chow mein" items offered a choice of "pan fried or crispy" but the "crispy" option died out due to lack of takers.

[Laksa]

I grew up eating Fujian (Hokkien) noodles of course, which I would say are medium sized yellow noodles, but they are always coated with oil.

We use it in soup, as well as chao mian, and the classic Malaysian dish, K.L. Hokkien mee.

So the first time I ordered "chow mein" in Australia and got a plate of crispy noodles, I thought the server had made a mistake. "Hong Kong style" chow mein was completely foreign to me. I view noodles as a comfort food, something I turn to when I crave carbohydrates, but the fine crispy noodles fail to satisfy this craving. I need something thicker, softer and starchier.

I've grown to appreciate Hong Kong style chow mein, and it stands pretty well on its own merits.

However, HK style is pretty rare here in NY and CT. For some strange reason, "chow mein" in American-Chinese restaurants where I am means something entirely different, and actually contains no noodles at all! It looks more like braised napa cabbage with some chicken or pork. What is up with that?

[formerly grueldelux]

I agree that it was just an attempt to describe a range, but it seems a little sloppy to offer a dualism of sophisticated NYC vs. less discriminating South, particularly when the Times is trying to broaden its reach to become a sort of national paper.

[herbacidal]

Not in the Bay Area.  Every Chinese restaurant I know of has a "chow mein" section on the menu, and you'll always get the soft, pan fried noodles, unless it's described as "Hong Kong" style, and then it will be as I decribed it.

40 years ago the "chow mein" items offered a choice of "pan fried or crispy" but the "crispy" option died out due to lack of takers.

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Really? When chow mein is listed on a menu in Philly, it's usually the original American-Chinese version.

I've never seen chow mein on a menu indicating the pan fried egg noodles that would be Hong Kong style.

IIRC, they're listed here as pan fried noodles with seafood/shredded pork/braised beef/etc.

FWIW, the reason there is this confusion is that the Hong Kong style pan fried egg noodles would be pronounced "chow mein" in Cantonese.

For instance, seafood with pan fried noodles is "hoi seen chow mein".

Edited September 23, 2004 by herbacidal (log)

[Hest88]

Not in the Bay Area. Every Chinese restaurant I know of has a "chow mein" section on the menu, and you'll always get the soft, pan fried noodles, unless it's described as "Hong Kong" style, and then it will be as I decribed it.

Another confirmation from a Bay Area born and bred gal. I had no idea NY chow mein was crispy. We have to specify "Hong Kong" style to get it crispy here, and then it's made with thinner noodles.

[Gary Soup]

FWIW, the reason there is this confusion is that the Hong Kong style pan fried egg noodles would be pronounced "chow mein" in Cantonese.

Your confusion is confusing me. On the West Coast, or in China, if you order "chow mein" (Cantonese/American), "chao mian" (Mandarin) or "cho mi" (Shanghainese) you'll get a medium-thickness, soft, stir fried noodle prep, unless otherwise qualified. In New York, and maybe in Philadelphia, if you order "chow mein" you'll get crunchy noodles with a topping, AFAIK.

[Gary Soup]

However, HK style is pretty rare here in NY and CT.  For some strange reason, "chow mein" in American-Chinese restaurants where I am means something entirely different, and actually contains no noodles at all!  It looks more like braised napa cabbage with some chicken or pork.  What is up with that?

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Wherever you are, it sounds like they don't even know "chow mein" from "chop suey."

[herbacidal]

FWIW, the reason there is this confusion is that the Hong Kong style pan fried egg noodles would be pronounced "chow mein" in Cantonese.

Your confusion is confusing me. On the West Coast, or in China, if you order "chow mein" (Cantonese/American), "chao mian" (Mandarin) or "cho mi" (Shanghainese) you'll get a medium-thickness, soft, stir fried noodle prep, unless otherwise qualified. In New York, and maybe in Philadelphia, if you order "chow mein" you'll get crunchy noodles with a topping, AFAIK.

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Actually, the more I think about it, the Hong Kong style pan fried noodles version of chow mein and the American Chinese version are both crunchy noodles with a topping.

I can't remember much specifics about the noodles in the American Chinese version, but it is probably gloppy (is that a word?).

I want to say that the noodles used would be the same as in lo mein, but I'm not sure.

The Hong Kong pan fried noodles that I would be familiar with would be a flat layer of very thin egg noodles, pan fried in a wok until some of the noodles, ie those closest to the bottom center of the wok are slightly black. The noodles are then placed on the plate.

Then bean sprouts, the meat/seafood of choice, etc. would be stir fried together and then placed on top of the noodles before being served.