Waiter tip tricks: shouldn't you be aware?

[hjshorter]

i was hoping you could explain this.  upselling and "super-sizing" aren't always the same thing.  at least in my experience.  unless this is a separate tirade against non-mom-and-pop profit-loving restaurants.

it is a tirade against non-mom-and-pop places, though i'd posit that corporate restaurants are primarily responsible for this trend, and thus get a good share of the blame.

Could these "trends" be part of why they're successful?

[TheFoodTutor]

Upselling may get you an immediate profit, but do you have any way of knowing how many patrons never come back because of it?

I think we're getting into territory where, although a particular sales tactic seems to be annoying and counterproductive to many of the folks here, it does seem that it must be working on the majority of people, or else it would have been discontinued long ago.

By the same token, isn't it depressing to realize that someone, in fact a lot of someones, must be buying the merchandise that's advertised in pop-ups?

[Daniel]

One thing i have noticed some waiters do which I really hate is: They over fill my wine glass to make the appearance that we finished the bottle.. Meanwhile, we are both holding a half a bottle of wine between our glasses.

[Mottmott]

One thing i have noticed some waiters do which I really hate is:  They over fill my wine glass to make the appearance that we finished the bottle.. Meanwhile, we are both holding a half a bottle of wine between our glasses.

Just stop them: not yet thanks will do it.

edited for afterthought:

I think some people may feel intimidated or made uncomfortable by restaurant staff. Keep in mind, you're the customer/patron and have every right to accept or reject what is offered just as they have every right to offer and try to get you to "buy" more. That's their job: they're there to sell stuff to you, try to get you to return, and, hopefully, give them a generous tip.

That said, I think the customer has some obligations, too, especially on a human level. Restaurant staff are working for a living. Absent some provocation, they are entitled to our respect. It's a job I'd never want to do. I appreciate it when it's done well. And when tipping, in addition to the server's competence, I do keep in mind how demanding my party has been, whether we've stayed overlong, or when I dine solo that I've halved the bill.

Edited September 1, 2004 by Mottmott (log)

[Daniel]

One thing i have noticed some waiters do which I really hate is:  They over fill my wine glass to make the appearance that we finished the bottle.. Meanwhile, we are both holding a half a bottle of wine between our glasses.

Just stop them: not yet thanks will do it.

I certainly do.. But I am not always on gaurd. Plus I am a smoker in Manhattan, so there is some time when i am not there.

[Mottmott]

One thing i have noticed some waiters do which I really hate is:  They over fill my wine glass to make the appearance that we finished the bottle.. Meanwhile, we are both holding a half a bottle of wine between our glasses.

Just stop them: not yet thanks will do it.

I certainly do.. But I am not always on gaurd. Plus I am a smoker in Manhattan, so there is some time when i am not there.

And yet another way we pay for our "habits."

[Daniel]

From now on i am strictly carrying the bottle out to the curb with me.. Ask the waiter for a brown bag and tell him i will be back in 5.

[beans]

For all of those "no thank yous" a sales person (the server) receives, some other patron delights in the suggestion. Bingo! Added sales!

Upselling may get you an immediate profit, but do you have any way of knowing how many patrons never come back because of it? There's one restaurant I've never visited a second time because too much upselling went on. I got the feeling the server had been told to do it to everyone at least twice, or something like that. She was very nice and charming and even wrapped up a second batch of bread to go, free. I liked the food, too, but I just do not want to go through what is clearly an upselling routine every time.

Upselling never means immediate profit. That food too does have its own cost.

Where I work it isn't a broken record sales pitch. Good servers are able to read their table and as I said up thread, some do it with aplomb and style. It is after all suggestive and one can just say no.

If the guest never returns because they don't like upselling, well, in this city, they will be hard pressed to find a venue to dine in.

Again, this technique is not soley reserved for those that patronise TGIF, Applebee's or the like, despite that seems to be the focus of this current study. Indie, popular and upscale places such as Blue Pointe or the Chop House do the it as well. (I've eaten in those places, and yes they too suggest a particular wine or first course or chef's feature....)

I think what everyone is having a hard time accepting is that your server is a salesperson and not a simple order taking/carrying drone servant. Good management (and that is both FOH and BOH -- because chefs like to sell their stuff) pushes this, looks for this and sometimes will require this.

Trust me after the years of retail of selling Disney then to managing a women's moderate ready to wear store (where management was also commissioned), food and beverage was a breeze and not much of a change. That alone usually got me hired wherever I chose to work.

[The_Rookie]

Yes, there is a name for it. It's called the "Sullivan Nod" and it was developed and promoted by a restaurant consultant named Tom Sullivan.

That's the name! Thanks, I've been racking my brains trying to remember.

Of course, it's not really a racking. More of a gentle nudging. I've only got a few brain cells left, can't be too hard on them. :)

[creepygirl]

Interesting at how everyone claims to hate these forms of building a good raport with interpersonal communications.

I've been there and they do work.

It isn't meant as some special trick but are encouraged of many in sales positions to utilise to place their guest/client at ease.

I think the problem is that some "forms of building a good rapport with interpersonal communications" that work for some people are genuinely annoying for others.

The touching thing, for example. I know lots of people like touching, and I am not doubting that it works on lots of people. However, I find it unpleasant to be touched, other than say, a handshake, by people I don't know well. I will endure it in social relationships to avoid hurt feelings. Getting it from someone who is trying to sell me something is grounds is incredibly annoying. It not only fails to put me at ease, but it makes me uncomfortable.

Fortunately, it hasn't been much of a problem for me lately, perhaps I've gotten good at avoiding restaurants that insist that their servers engage in this kind of behavior, or I'm getting better at giving off "Touch me without permission and you will earn my enmity for a lifetime" vibe to servers.

[jschyun]

Emily Green wrote a piece today in the L.A. Times about an annoying waiter habit. Thought it was semi related (unfortunately you have to register to see this one, but reg is free)

Is everything all right?

Edited September 1, 2004 by jschyun (log)

[jbonne]

Could these "trends" be part of why they're successful?

well, i'd argue they're successful because (1) there often aren't other, local options available or anywhere near as convenient, and (2) Americans have relatively modest expectations of the quality of their food.

on the first, i'm sure that small operators would also benefit from having consultants to choose their location based on food and car traffic, interior color palettes, menu design, wine list, &c. there are plenty of efficiencies in applying modern business principles to restaurants. there's also lots of mediocrity and uniformity.

Starbucks is also successful. that doesn't mean i think they make the best coffee or that their business model is fundamentally good for their employees, their customers or their suppliers.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Recently during a visit to New York, I experimented with "yes." When the hostess of La Côte Basque stalked toward my table in vivid "Are you all right?" mode, I snapped "Yes" before she got the question out.

On the bright side, she didn't bother us again.

Nice choice of a highly appropriate article! The above quote made me laugh in recognition of something I have done from time to time ...

[jbonne]

Is everything all right?

weirdly, i have no problem with checkbacks. if there's something amiss, it's a good chance to rectify it without flagging someone down. (and there's probably a whole thread just waiting to pop about annoying flagdown methods.) if everything's fine, i still appreciate the attention.

of course, the *timing* on checkbacks can be very poorly executed. but that's another story as well.

[tanabutler]

Upselling is an art. Often if a server informs me about a special with knowledge and enthusiasm. I am grateful for the tip. If they sound like a used car salesman I am turned off.

When I waited tables, my trick for upselling was different than others' techniques. Instead of encouraging two appetizers, two entrées, and two desserts, I invariably recommended sharing an appetizer and dessert, leaving more room for a nice bottle of wine. I would tell people, "That's an enormous amount of food, and it won't taste good reheated. Why not split an appetizer, or order two appetizers and split an entrée, then splurge on a good bottle of wine?"

A good percentage of people went for my suggestion, gratefully, and usually tipped more than the standard because they appreciated their experience more. They left comfortable, not groaning with excess, and the wine added the romance they sought. They'd spent the same amount of money, usually, but it didn't feel like it to them.

Management was happy: I won a district-wide contest for selling wine one quarter.

I was also the person most likely to be tapped to wait on people with little kids. Being nice to little kids with stressed out parents, just hoping they can get through a meal without the Hate Stare of Death by child-haters, goes a long way. Kids with crackers are usually not as messy as business men at the hors d'oeuvres table, trying to pile seven pounds of shrimp onto a 5" plate. (Not that I have any opinions about the pigs at happy hour.)

The upselling I hate is trying to push fancy bottled water on me. Filtered water is fine. (Filtering is a must in many places in California...the first time I drank the water in San Diego, I cried.)

Edited September 1, 2004 by tanabutler (log)

[wesza]

Emily Green wrote a piece today in the L.A. Times about an annoying waiter habit. Thought it was semi related (unfortunately you have to register to see this one, but reg is free)

Is everything all right?

I don't know why, but somehow this article seemed to evolve from the comments on our eGullet thread.

I find it ironical how often these type of pieces are written in many newspapers one or two days after they are initially posted on eGullet. Curious about the percentile that ever mention where their bright ideas came from, but then I do know as a fact that eGullet is read, discussed and used as a source at almost every food related media, television, radio, print, internet or whatever.

Has anyone else noticed this media trend ?

Irwin

[tommy]

I find it ironical how often these type of pieces are written in many newspapers one or two days after they are initially posted on eGullet. Curious about the percentile that ever mention where their bright ideas came from, but then I do know as a fact that eGullet is read, discussed and used as a source at almost every food related media, television, radio, print, internet or whatever.

Has anyone else noticed this media trend ?

i've noticed that from time to time. but these fluff pieces get written over and over again and are probably showing up in at least one newspaper any given week. it might be the ol' "i just bought a blue pick-up truck and now *everyone* has a blue pick-up truck" thing.

i should note that i haven't read the article and most likely won't as bugmenot.com has been down and i don't have the interest in lying about my name, address, phone number, salary, and gender.

Edited September 1, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Tess]

This article also looks an awful lot like a current topic on Chowhound's Not About Food board.

I don't doubt at all, however, that a lot of these fluffy articles are written between desperate surfs of the net.

[viva]

Totally OT, but Bugmenot.com is up... info for LATimes is (user) sparklebottom, (pw) sparklebottom.

God, I love that site.

[Pan]

Is everything all right?

weirdly, i have no problem with checkbacks. if there's something amiss, it's a good chance to rectify it without flagging someone down.

Right. Unless they don't really want to know the answer to the question. That's when I have a problem with it.

[TheFoodTutor]

Is everything all right?

weirdly, i have no problem with checkbacks. if there's something amiss, it's a good chance to rectify it without flagging someone down.

Right. Unless they don't really want to know the answer to the question. That's when I have a problem with it.

That's odd. I work in a place where a 2 minutes/2 bites quality check is required, and I really try to hit it at the correct time - giving the guest a chance to taste the food, but not waiting so long that they have to sit there with an improperly cooked item, looking around the room for me.

I genuinely mean it when I ask. Is your burger cooked exactly to your specifications? Or more importantly, your steak? A filet is $26, while the burger is only $9, and I don't want you wasting money on either, really. Last night, I stood over a woman who was concerned that her ribeye would not be well done - because I know that sometimes cooks are reluctant to leave it on the grill that long - and I waited for her to cut into it to check the temperature. It was only about medium, so I didn't make her wait to complain, but just whisked it back to the kitchen.

But then again, I happen to work in a restaurant that has really high standards for service. It's almost ruined me for anywhere else, since I find that when I go to other restaurants now, I notice immediately how long it takes for my table to be greeted, how long it takes to get drinks and such.

Still, I notice that a lot of people on this board seem especially cynical when talking about how they perceive servers and other restaurant staff. We're not all out to get you, you know, and a lot of us really care about doing our jobs correctly.

[Pan]

Food Tutor, I'm not one of the cynical ones. By far the majority of my interactions with wait staff are good ones. However, I can certainly remember times when people asking whether everything was alright really didn't mean that as a sincere question. You can feel when that happens. Hasn't it ever happened to you when you were a customer?

[TheFoodTutor]

However, I can certainly remember times when people asking whether everything was alright really didn't mean that as a sincere question. You can feel when that happens. Hasn't it ever happened to you when you were a customer?

I suppose I can think of a few times. I can't always wear a button that reads, "I'm a server, too" on my clothing, or have it tattoed on my forehead, so sometimes a jaded server can mistake me for an idiot who knows nothing about eating in restaurants. You know the person I'm talking about. The one who thinks that a steak ordered "medium" will be cooked all the way through with no pink showing?

So sometimes, the thing that's wrong is that I'd asked for one side and got another, but when the server asks if everything is OK, and I mention my one little thing, they give me that eye-roll. Yeah, it happens.

[Daddy-A]

Is everything all right?

The one I have a problem with is:

"How's everything so far?" I know it's just my quirky obsession with semantics (blame my mother), but I feel like replying:

"Pretty good so far, but I'm sure the next few bites will taste like crap."

Arne

[StudentChefEclipse]

Still, I notice that a lot of people on this board seem especially cynical when talking about how they perceive servers and other restaurant staff. We're not all out to get you, you know, and a lot of us really care about doing our jobs correctly.

FoodTutor, nothing makes me appreciate a really good server than having it done for all of a month at school. It was a negligible experience next to someone who does it for a living, but believe me, it gave me the education I needed. Not to say I still don't get on the case of servers who touch me or are otherwise *way* too familiar.

It's just, I think, that bad service and good food, or worse bad service and bad food, linger so in our minds. A really good service experience might stay, but not as long. Sad, isn't it?

I *am* really glad to hear that your place puts a premium on their service though. Maybe more places, even casual ones, will come to realize the benefits.