Avenues Restaurant To Get 2004 F&W Best New Chef

[ulterior epicure]

I'm really curious to know how, by merely looking at such images, one can reasonably estimate that flavors are "mudled" (sic) and that the food is "under seasoned".

=R=

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... or how either "mudled," under-seasoned, or over-cooked meat has anything to do with sloppy presentation... The only presentation that I will agree looked sloppy to me was the un-ravelled lamb chop. The rest of it, I found aesthetically pleasing.

[edited to add: I always order my meats rare. I assure you, the beef was not-over-cooked, unless you had tartare in mind...]

u.e.

Edited June 5, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[ronnie_suburban]

I'm really curious to know how, by merely looking at such images, one can reasonably estimate that flavors are "mudled" (sic) and that the food is "under seasoned".

=R=

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... or how either "mudled," under-seasoned, or over-cooked meat has anything to do with sloppy presentation... The only presentation that I will agree looked sloppy to me was the un-ravelled lamb chop. The rest of it, I found aesthetically pleasing.

[edited to add: I always order my meats rare. I assure you, the beef was not-over-cooked, unless you had tartare in mind...]

u.e.

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I hope you know I meant no offense, ue. I happen to think your images are consistently outstanding but you are, technically-speaking, an amateur photographer.

=R=

[ulterior epicure]

no offense taken. i claim to be nothing other than an amateur photographer. thanks for the note though!

u.e.

[gaya]

A pictures tells a thousands words!!!!!

[ronnie_suburban]

A pictures tells a thousands words!!!!!

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In cases like these, I think it's fair to say that those thousand words are only a very small portion of the whole story.

=R=

[docsconz]

A pictures tells a thousands words!!!!!

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Indeed, although in this case I don't "read" the words "muddled flavors", "overcooked proteins" or "Underseasoned" in any of the photos, although you might have an argument about the butchering of the rouget. Other than the fact that there aren't large grains of sea salt, I really don't see how anyone can possibly judge the flavors or seasoning of these dishes based on the photos.

[gaya]

I base my statement on the fact that I have been eating in fine dining restuarants for about 15 years. City to city, country to country, etc....the pictures are not second rate.....I think it captures exactly what you will get at Avenues. Based on all PR about the chef, I expected better looking food. Taste of course is the most important , but if you are going to bring an artistic aesthetic to the cuisine it better look as good as it will taste. My point being, it probably tastes like it looks.

[jesteinf]

Unless you can gain some insight from licking your monitor, I still don't understand how you can judge the taste of something by the way it looks on a website photo. All sorts of nasty looking things taste good. I mean, how attractive is bone marrow?

Edited June 5, 2006 by jesteinf (log)

[Elrushbo]

The picture combines with the description to give a sense of what to expect-if you have some experience with fine dining and cooking and what flavors taste like what, you can get a feel sometimes for what will be good by a pic, imho. Not every restaurant's food illicits that same vibe from me like Chef Bowles' food does.

[chicagowench]

Boldly jumping into the fray. So, I've eaten at fine dining establishments for, oh, 15 years or so as well. And frankly, having dined at both Alinea and Avenues within a fairly short span of time, I can assert from my own experience there are some dishes that looked meh (the matsutake at Alinea, the prep resembled nothing so much as the bailey's 'blow job' shots we did in college which I assure you were not haute cuisine) and tasted far better than they looked. This is my experience. I would in no way claim to be able to intuit the flavor of a dish based on a photo. The thread on regrettable dinners here on our very own egullet provides ample demonstration of food that looks downright revoltingly foul and yet tasted okay.

Now then, have I looked at photos from some restaurants and gone 'looks like too much' 'looks too busy' or 'what the hell are they thinking?' You betcha. But to my mind, that's very different from being able to discern the taste and flavor of a dish from a photo. Even if I licked my computer screen.

[jesteinf]

13th Course: Beef

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This could be the craziest discussion I've ever been a part of.

How can you possibly look at this picture and make any sort of judgement about whether this dish tastes good or not? I don't care if you've never been do a fine dining establishment of if you've been eating at nothing but Michelin 3 stars everyday of your life for the last 50 years. Current technology does not allow you to taste things on your computer screen. You cannot know the following:

What the beef was seasoned with (that you cannot see)

How the sauce on the side of the plate works with the beef

How the flavors of the ingredients under the beef work with the beef

What the different combinations of things on the plate would taste like when eaten together

Is it just me, or is there a growing trend on food boards of people judging food at restaurants they have never eaten at?

Edited June 6, 2006 by jesteinf (log)

[Elrushbo]

13th Course: Beef

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This could be the craziest discussion I've ever been a part of.

How can you possibly look at this picture and make any sort of judgement about whether this dish tastes good or not? I don't care if you've never been do a fine dining establishment of if you've been eating at nothing but Michelin 3 stars everyday of your life for the last 50 years. Current technology does not allow you to taste things on your computer screen. You cannot know the following:

What the beef was seasoned with (that you cannot see)

How the sauce on the side of the plate works with the beef

How the flavors of the ingredients under the beef work with the beef

What the different combinations of things on the plate would taste like when eaten together

Is it just me, or is there a growing trend on food boards of people judging food at restaurants they have never eaten at?

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I'll see for myself next weekend, but in that pic I do not see things I dislike, like piles and piles of veggies. I like what I hear about the flavors from people who have tried it, sounds right up my alley.

[ulterior epicure]

How can you possibly look at this picture and make any sort of judgement about whether this dish tastes good or not?

... you can't...

I don't care if you've never been do a fine dining establishment of if you've been eating at nothing but Michelin 3 stars everyday of your life for the last 50 years.

Ditto.

Current technology does not allow you to taste things on your computer screen.

Yeah, not even Emeril has been able to bring about the invention of the "smell-o-vision"

AND. Piggy-backing off of wench's statement: I have travelled quite a bit and have eaten things in places I don't think many have or would ever consider. Wench's thread link in her above post is one good example. So is my latest meal at a Kansas City restaurant, Lucky Wok. If you look at the pictures from that meal, you'd think I was at a dogs' table. But, I assure you, some of those dishes tasted much better than anything I've had in a lot of "fine dining" establishments.

And for what it's worth, even though I LOVE taking pictures of food - not all food photographs well. As any photographer, amateur or profession, can attest, lighting is key. Restaurants are not studios. The lighting in these establishments are to flatter (read: obscure) people - "mood" lighting, not "food" lighting. That being said, I do stress again that I am an AMATEUR... had I, ohsayamilliondollars, sure, I could have arrived geared with a professional camera with a lens that cost more than ten Avenues meals and made food porn...

I agree, tastes are different. My descriptions of the food are, of course, only mine. That's why it was so fun to have had the same tasting as wench, but then simul-posted our respective reactions to note the differences in taste. gaya, based on what you have posted, I doubt you'd be interested in visiting the Avenues. But, if you do ever go, I would love to hear your reactions to actually eating Elliot's creations.

I didn't *LOVE* everything on the menu. I made my delights and disappointments clear. As well, I don't think that the plating on every course was drop-dead gorgeous. I've even admitted that the unravelled lamb course did look sloppy. Regardless, the taste and preparation of these dishes, to me, must be and can be separated from their appearance. As well, part of appreciating a chef and a meal, in my opinion, is not only how the food tastes (that, of course is pinultimate), rather how everything works in concert. One can only have so many favorites - and to expect them all to show up in one meal would nearly be impossible - for some, that would require 12 straight courses of foie gras... for others, like me, the ballpark widens to a larger (albeit more strange) class of foods.

Edited June 6, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[gaya]

This is a crazy discussion. I am going to make an effort to eat at Avenues.

Edited June 6, 2006 by gaya (log)

[gaya]

I love when pics are posted, I think it gives great insight to what the chef is all about.

Edited June 6, 2006 by gaya (log)

[David Crum]

From the apperance of the food from the photos you can tell the technique and skill level behind the photos....therefore base my OPINION from that.....I believe the chefs hands and eyes are just as important to him/her as is his/her palate.  Like every expierenced chef can't tell what food will taste like from a photo?  I am just a foodie and I have some sort of idea.

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I was not going to get involved, but.... This is a ridiculous statement. I do not believe that "experienced chefs" can tell how a dish tastes simply by looking at a photo, but then again I've only been working in fine dining restaurants for 10 years. We can make assumptions on how a flavor combination may taste but no way would I assume to form an opinion on the overall flavor of a dish from a photo. In many cases being a chef could be a hinderence in trying to imagine what a dish may taste like. For instance take risotto, now I see the picture of the risotto, but unlike many "foodies" I have cooked risottos with different styles of rice, different liquid base (fish stock, chicken stock, vegetable stock, shellfish stock, red wine, white wine, fortified wine....), different cheeses (parmesan, pecorino, pecorino jenpiro, cacciocavallo...) many different aromatics (onions, shallot, garlic, carrot, bay leaf, celery, basil, parsley...), different spices, etc., etc., etc. and all of these things make a risotto taste DIFFERENT. Now mabe as a "foodie" you think that risotto just tastes like risotto but to me there are a thousand possibilites as to how that risotto may taste. And thats just the risotto.

Dave

[Elrushbo]

From the apperance of the food from the photos you can tell the technique and skill level behind the photos....therefore base my OPINION from that.....I believe the chefs hands and eyes are just as important to him/her as is his/her palate.  Like every expierenced chef can't tell what food will taste like from a photo?  I am just a foodie and I have some sort of idea.

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I was not going to get involved, but.... This is a ridiculous statement. I do not believe that "experienced chefs" can tell how a dish tastes simply by looking at a photo, but then again I've only been working in fine dining restaurants for 10 years. We can make assumptions on how a flavor combination may taste but no way would I assume to form an opinion on the overall flavor of a dish from a photo. In many cases being a chef could be a hinderence in trying to imagine what a dish may taste like. For instance take risotto, now I see the picture of the risotto, but unlike many "foodies" I have cooked risottos with different styles of rice, different liquid base (fish stock, chicken stock, vegetable stock, shellfish stock, red wine, white wine, fortified wine....), different cheeses (parmesan, pecorino, pecorino jenpiro, cacciocavallo...) many different aromatics (onions, shallot, garlic, carrot, bay leaf, celery, basil, parsley...), different spices, etc., etc., etc. and all of these things make a risotto taste DIFFERENT. Now mabe as a "foodie" you think that risotto just tastes like risotto but to me there are a thousand possibilites as to how that risotto may taste. And thats just the risotto.

Dave

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What I meant, that got this topic going, was that imho sometimes a well taken photo of well presented food from a reputable restaurant, combined with a good description, can make that food look good. Isn't that part of the reason people take pictures of food?

[joiei]

A photo alone does not give any idea of flavor. I have talked with food stylists and the tricks they use to make food look beautiful for a photo would make me not want to put that in my mouth. The written description is what drives me and my decisions.

I have total respect for food stylists, the ability to create a picture that would make others drool is not easy.

THe photos that individuals take of plated dinners that we see a lot of here on eG is the ability to capture the essence right at the perfect moment before it is eaten. I have done some and it is hard to take the perfect picture. It takes much practice, one person who has done well with this is ulterior epicure and his pictures

[ulterior epicure]

I have total respect for food stylists, the ability to create a picture that would make others drool is not easy.

Yup... and that ain't glue when you see milk in my pictures!! Neither are those scoops of "whipped shortening" I'm eating!!

Edited June 6, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Elrushbo]

I have total respect for food stylists, the ability to create a picture that would make others drool is not easy.

Yup... and that ain't glue when you see milk in my pictures!! Neither are those scoops of "whipped shortening" I'm eating!!

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I've never taken food pics before, but I will take a few at Avenues next Saturday. Looks like the Chef's Bar is a good place for that, lighting looks good.

[ulterior epicure]

I love when pics are posted, I think it gives great insight to what the chef is all about.

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... interesting how some opinions can take a "180" so quickly... and mysteriously , and morph...

u.e.

Edited June 8, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[docsconz]

I finally made it to Avenues last Staurday night! A group of six of us took up the Kitchen bar for the foie gras tasting menu. We had a wonderful dinner with the added fun of watching the kitchen "perform" directly in front of us. I have a lot of photos from that evening that I have so far been unable to fully get through, but they will be forthcoming along with specific course discussion. What I can say at this point is that I never knew how many different ways foie gras can be successfully used!

[ulterior epicure]

doc.

looking forward to what elliot's up to with the foie!!

u.e.

[docsconz]

doc.

looking forward to what elliot's up to with the foie!! 

u.e.

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Wonderful things, I assure you

[ronnie_suburban]

doc.

looking forward to what elliot's up to with the foie!! 

u.e.

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Wonderful things, I assure you

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I completely agree. Was there with doc and a few others and am working on my post as well. It was a fantastic and delcious experience.

=R=