Too Authentic for you?

[Richard Kilgore]

Thanks. Interesting site.

[fifi]

What I am wondering is that the presence of the snail shells may not indicate that they were a food source. Maybe they just showed up later?

You mean they were like guests who show up for dinner, but you just can't get them to go home?

That is what I am thinking. There is a pile of oyster shells out here in the flower bed where I live. (Why, I don't know.) After a rain, there are all kinds of snails and slugs crawling around in there. That is why I am wondering if the assumption that the snails are a food source might be wrong.

[Richard Kilgore]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over terms. There can be an authentic cuisine, an original cuisine, and a traditional cuisine. None of these are necessarily the same, however.

Good point, ExtraMSG.

[jess mebane]

There is a pile of oyster shells out here in the flower bed where I live. (Why, I don't know.)

Perhaps because you live below sea level, within a cigarette's drive of the coast, maybe?

[ExtraMSG]

Sophie D. Coe in America's First Cuisines on river snails (speaking about Mayan foods):

The freshwater streams and lakes provided other foodstuffs.  Freshwater snails (Pachychilus spp.) were eaten with mashed root crops at the time of the Soustelles visit in the 1930s and are mentioned in the diaries of earlier explorers of the area (Soustelle 1937).  The fact that snail shells could be burned to provide the lime needed for nixtamal suggests that an absence of snail shells does not mean that they were not eaten.  Other riverine creatures consumed included frogs, one species of which, the uo (Leptodactylus spp.), was supposed to be another source of fat, and the river turtles.

[lovebenton0]

What I am wondering is that the presence of the snail shells may not indicate that they were a food source. Maybe they just showed up later?

You mean they were like guests who show up for dinner, but you just can't get them to go home?

That is what I am thinking. There is a pile of oyster shells out here in the flower bed where I live. (Why, I don't know.) After a rain, there are all kinds of snails and slugs crawling around in there. That is why I am wondering if the assumption that the snails are a food source might be wrong.

That is exactly the controversy I was referring to in my post. Also the main reason that archaeologists do not spend as much time counting and classifying snail shells as they once did. A simpler estimate and evaluation process has replaced that. However, there is still a good case to be made for the snails being a food source in areas where they are found on a lesser scale than similar shell middens, which can be quite large. Location is also important: When it can be judged that the snail shells have been taken a distance from where they likely would be habitating.

Keeping in mind that these people would not likely forego an easy food source during times when it was plentiful.

Think one sunflower seed at a time.

[lovebenton0]

The site is wisdomkeepers.org/nativeway/nwidx.htm They are trying to save Native traditions and folkways.

Thanks, Mabelline. Informative site -- I had not found this one before. Good resource for NA recipes, traditional/authentic, and contemporary. Interesting if one wants to learn more about NA cooking than the ubiquitous fry bread.

The traditional fish baked in clay would be a boon to all who are tired of scaling and cleaning/deboning the fish they catch.

[fifi]

That is exactly the controversy I was referring to in my post. Also the main reason that archaeologists do not spend as much time counting and classifying snail shells as they once did. A simpler estimate and evaluation process has replaced that. However, there is still a good case to be made for the snails being a food source in areas where they are found on a lesser scale than similar shell middens, which can be quite large. Location is also important: When it can be judged that the snail shells have been taken a distance from where they likely would be habitating.

Keeping in mind that these people would not likely forego an easy food source during times when it was plentiful.

Think one sunflower seed at a time.

Good points. I can certainly see using snails as a food source. After all, the French do. Now I am wondering if even the little buggers that crawl around in the flower beds here might have been used in soups and such. I am reminded of a wonderful chowder that we have made (recipe from Euell Gibbons) from the little coquinas that we sometimes find in huge beds on the beach. You just steam them and use the broth. You sure don't try to shuck them.

[Mabelline]

fifi, you may have hit it pretty close to the mark. It may have been just as flavor and perhaps easier to pry out by first giving them a "hot bath".So, in the interests of paleo-recipe search, you are hearby nominated to go out after your next storm and boil up a batch of slime bugs!

[fifi]

Ummm... Not likely. I don't even like the French species.

Indigenous snails are one of those things where I would "draw the line" on authenticity.

[fifi]

Having had a rather unpleasant lunch during the week, I am reminded of this thread. There are some cuisines where the "authentic" versions have a lot of fishy fish. Strong fish. I am particularly thinking of Japanese and Dutch as those are the ones I have been exposed to the most. When you get into strong fish, fish skin, sometimes bones, I just can't handle it. Yes, I have tried it. I admit to being timid about trying it but, for instance, there have been some fish on a Dutch breakfast buffet that I was glad I was timid. If I had taken a big bite, there would have been an embarrassing incident.

That seems odd since I was raised on the Gulf Coast with a lot of seafood. There are even some fish that I won't eat even if I just boated it. Some of the mackerals and blue fish come to mind.

[ExtraMSG]

I'm the same way, fifi, despite having grown up in the PNW with tons of fresh salmon, trout, steelhead, and crab. I'm just starting to be able to stand some fish and have never been able to handle salmon. I recently did a dinner at a Japanese restaurant with other Chowhounders and eGers where we just let the chef give us what he thought was best. Very interesting stuff, but most of it just didn't fit my palate at all. Japanese, I think, is the most difficult for the American palate. But I consider that a problem with myself, a character or palate flaw. Japanese and other Asians often like chewy and jellied items more than us, too. eg, we had a fishy custard that was just too different for me. But I could see that the texture and everything was nice and I could see that it worked for what they were doing, but... Again, I see it as a problem with my palate being too narrow to enjoy something that another country and culture thinks is great.

[fifi]

I am wondering if the "fishy palates" don't perceive things differently than those of us who were not exposed to it from a very young age.

[ExtraMSG]

Probably likely. Most perceptions are molded and actually hard-wired to some degree pretty early from most of the pop-science I've read. But then again, kids have much more sensitivity to such things usually, so maybe they have to be endeared to it over time, too, and it's just the culture/tradition that requires most to come to a love of fishiness. What's weird, though, is that when you watch an episode of Iron Chef, the tasters often give kudos to the chef for his ability to mask or reduce the fishy flavor using this or that technique.

Take someone like Scott -- DFW, though. When I met him, his palate was very narrow. It's grown enormously in the last couple years, to his credit. People can learn to like all kinds of things that they once thought were gross or bad, even pain, as the S&M crowd or the crazies who get their Thai food at maximum heat prove every day.

[FoodMan]

Speaking of fishy and Thai food as they relate to authenticity and taste, my most recent cookbook acquisition is Thai Food by David Thompson. I have been reading through this opus for the past few days and I have to say I am a little scared from how “authentic” it is, since a Pad Thai, Tom Yum soup or a simple green curry have been my main conquests when it comes to Thai food. I am a little averse to very “fishy” flavors and when reading many of the recipes that sound interesting they include large amounts of fish paste, fish sauce, shrimp paste…flavors that the author describes as fetid smelling. However, once incorporated in a dish they are supposed to do wonders. These recipes are very interesting though and I basically decided to give them a try as soon as I can, it might taste a little strange, maybe a little fishy (I hope not) but in the end I will hopefully get used to it and come to enjoy it the same way I got over eating raw fish and now enjoy a regular dose of sushi and sashimi on a regular basis. They might be intimidating but that will not stop me from discovering this interesting cuisine.

Elie

[fifi]

Heh heh...

When you get to the part where you "toast" the shrimp paste... Pick a cool and breezy day and open all of the windows. You do NOT want that in your air conditioner filters.

[FoodMan]

Heh heh...

When you get to the part where you "toast" the shrimp paste... Pick a cool and breezy day and open all of the windows. You do NOT want that in your air conditioner filters.

I can only imagine. My wife might actually file for divorce after such an incident. She practically spends the day at her mom’s when I make duck confit because of the duck fat smell, even though she does not mind eating the end product . A stinky fishy smell might a little over the top for her. Hopefully it will be the same way with my Thai food adventures, the end product will be much better than the sum of it’s parts’ smell. The key to any new and strange food item is to take small steps (hence, it is good to be timid sometimes Fifi). A nibble here and there until you decide if it is for you or not.

Elie

[Behemoth]

Oh, and he did not like the fact that Italians do not add sliced hotdogs to pasta sauce .

Bwahaha. Close second is that spaghetti they bake in the oven to the consistency of fried shoe leather. I can't say I've ever had "italian in italy" myself, but the lebanese versions are even more foul than the german versions (which I am horribly familiar with -- pizza with tuna and boiled eggs in honey-mustard sauce, anyone? Gah.)

Having said that, some americanized versions of chinese dishes remind me of my childhood with my american grandparents. I don't compare them to an authentic version, it's just "shrimp in lobster sauce" -- entirely its own thing.

I don't mind shrimp paste but I bought a bag of bhel puri mix the other day that was particularly generous with the asafetida. I'm sure it was authentic, a little too much so and it took hours for the smell to dissipate.

By the way, I too have been working my way through the David Thompson cookbook lately (what recipes I can find ingredients for) and the stuff that seems really fishy is not that overwhelming once you add in the limes, tamarind, sugar, chilis etc. It just gives it a sort of "depth", like pork fat in chinese cooking, for example. One new favorite easy lunch is rice with a little nahm prik gapi (basically, shrimp paste, garlic and chilis) & a steamed or medium-hard-boiled egg.

(edited to add that last paragraph)

Edited August 19, 2004 by Behemoth (log)

[ExtraMSG]

The last time I was in Chicago -- or was it Dallas -- I made the mistake of buying smoked asafetida and tried to bring it back in my bag. Man, everything stunk like asafetida afterwards.

[FoodMan]

Behemoth-

I know exactly what your are talking about, most Lebanese versions of baked pasta or any pasta is overcooked, gummy and almost inedible (my does make a very good Lasagna, though it did not start that way). The funny thing is that as a kid I enjoyed most of them but now I cannot imagine eating overcooked pasta with sliced hotdogs in it.

By the way, I too have been working my way through the David Thompson cookbook lately (what recipes I can find ingredients for) and the stuff that seems really fishy is not that overwhelming once you add in the limes, tamarind, sugar, chilis etc. It just gives it a sort of "depth", like pork fat in chinese cooking, for example. One new favorite easy lunch is rice with a little nahm prik gapi (basically, shrimp paste, garlic and chilis) & a steamed or medium-hard-boiled egg.

I figured this has to be the case. Thompson keeps saying that and now you confirm it. I should get cooking with some relishes (nahm prik) and curries soon .

Elie

edit: fix spelling

[fifi]

This thread has developed more broad interest than Texas so I am going to move it to the General Topics forum.

Carry on guys.

[winesonoma]

Ummm... Not likely. I don't even like the French species.

Indigenous snails are one of those things where I would "draw the line" on authenticity.

There was a French fellow in Sonoma who was going to raise and sell them back in the 70's and actually would come pick them up. Then he discovered that when cooked they looked like pencil erasers . Not plump enough.