All About Pizza

[Fat Guy]

Marcus, point of nomenclature: when you say "cherry tomatoes" what do you mean? Are you talking about the plum-shaped San Marzano tomatoes, or the smaller, spherical things we call cherry tomatoes here in the US?

[albiston]

Marcus, point of nomenclature: when you say "cherry tomatoes" what do you mean? Are you talking about the plum-shaped San Marzano tomatoes, or the smaller, spherical things we call cherry tomatoes here in the US?

I hope Marcus doesn't mind if I answer this one. The cherry tomatoes normally used on pizza in Naples are a particular variety that grows on the Vesuvius slopes called "pomodorini del pendolo" or "pendolini". They can be eaten fresh but they can be picked, still on the vine, and left to "age" in winter, usually outside. They become sweeter and have a somwhat more complex taste.

[MobyP]

Someone ordered that pizza at the next table (I think they were Danish) from me - but I couldn't say whether they were cherry shaped or mini-plum.

[slkinsey]

Pomodorino a piennolo. Also here. Good information and pictures here.

Pomodorino del Piennolo del Vesuvio are DOP.

[Adam Balic]

GREAT thread, Moby! I hardly know what to add except jealousy, of course.

I think a lot of the soft, pliable texture and fairly pale color (contrasting with the crisp, brown, blistered cornicione and great oven spring) has to do with their use of soft, hyper-refined 00 flour. Most pizzerie in America use a much stronger flour and consequently have to cut the dough with fat in order to make it tender enough to eat. Even Franny's uses high gluten flour. This use of strong flour (which makes sense for an American pizzeria, what with America being the world's leading supplier of strong flour and all) works more towards an overall crispness, "snap" and chewyness rather than tender pliability.

Oh, and I am naturallt honored to have a pizza crust evaluation scale named after me.

Second the great post Moby.

Have been curious about the different types of pizza in Italy. Not, you know different types of pie called pizza, but different types of pizza type pizza .

Eh, yes. Well in one place in Prato (near Florence) a pizza place offers four different types. A Naples style (as shown above) and the local type (very thin base, almost crisped to cracker stage), calzone and a puffy-dough type. Different styles have different toppings.

Is this type of regional variation common? Would be interesting as I assume Pizza hasn't been consumed all over Italy (or at least in the North) for more then what 50 years?

[slkinsey]

There is a neo-Neapolitan Italian style that is found almost everywhere (e.g., thin crusted individual sized pizza, but without so much blistering and puffing up at the cornicione), but I've even seen what struck me as more or less American pizza in a few places. The variation of toppings on baked flat-ish bread is infinite, I suppose.

[Adam Balic]

The variation of toppings on baked flat-ish bread is infinite, I suppose.

Unfortunately this is true. Thai green curry chicken pizza anybody?

I guess what I was interersted in is if these various styles of pizza are due to a regional adaption to some type of pre-existing 'bread with topping' model. There are numerous types of flat bread in Italy for instance that could influence preferences in pizza base texture etc.

[marcus]

Marcus, point of nomenclature: when you say "cherry tomatoes" what do you mean? Are you talking about the plum-shaped San Marzano tomatoes, or the smaller, spherical things we call cherry tomatoes here in the US?

I only saw the tomatoes on the pizza after they were baked, but to me they looked like cherry tomatoes cut in half, they were small. I am trying to recall whether they were placed with the cut side up or down, but I'm drawing a blank. It is likely that they were the pendolini described above.

[Fat Guy]

We have so many helpful and illustrative pizza photos around the site, I hope someday somebody assembles them in a comparative fashion. Seeing these photos from Naples I'm again reminded that I'm the only person (even Mario Batali seems not to agree with me) who thinks the pizza at Otto in New York is very reminiscent of the Neapolitan style. Looking at one of Ellen's early photos:

Well, we'd have to lift it up and photograph the bottom, and of course there's only so much you can tell without tasting, but Otto does have an alleged D.O.C. pizza on the menu.

Someday when I get my private jet I'll research this more thoroughly.

[marcus]

Seeing these photos from Naples I'm again reminded that I'm the only person (even Mario Batali seems not to agree with me) who thinks the pizza at Otto in New York is very reminiscent of the Neapolitan style.

I can assure you that the pizza at Otto, which I had quite recently, is not at all like a Neapolitan pizza, the crust is hard, almost tough, not soft and chewy. I can also say that I didn't like Otto's pizza at all, but that is a separate point.

[Pan]

What a fun thread, Moby!

The last time I was in Naples was 1998. I went to Trianon and the Antica Pizzeria Porta d'Alba, just off the northern part of the Piazza Dante to the east. Trianon was an interesting scene - lots of families with small children - and they made only pizza, which you could get with a limited number of drinks. (Acqua minerale and, was it Orangina? I forget whether they sold wine but have a feeling they didn't. Do they have beer?) We enjoyed the pizza there but maybe even more found the whole atmosphere and experience interesting. Service was not effusive but we didn't care; they are a very busy establishment and all they really needed to do was take our order and bring us the food and drinks, which they did just fine. The Antica Pizzeria Porta d'Alba is more of a full-service restaurant, which made excellent salads, for example. My brother and I ordered one salad apiece and then one pizza apiece (more varieties were available than at Trianon, I think - I believe Margherita, Marinara, Con Funghi, Con Prosciutto, Con Prosciutto e Funghi, and Quattro Formaggi) and IIRC drank wine with the meal. It was more expensive but also a bit more formal than Trianon. If it's still in business, I'd be curious to hear any reports on how their pizza and other food are currently. I liked them very much in 1991 and again in 1998.

[slkinsey]

Seeing these photos from Naples I'm again reminded that I'm the only person . . . who thinks the pizza at Otto in New York is very reminiscent of the Neapolitan style.

There are certainly elements of Otto's style that are closely related to the Neapolitan style. These elements have mostly to do with the toppings and the size, however, and not much to do with the crust. So I suppose the pizza might be reminiscent of the Neapolitan stule with respect to these elements. The thing is... the crust is the game. If the crust isn't right, the pizza isn't right. Re Otto, I think the pizza there is much thinner and crisper, without of the pliable puffyness that can be seen in Neapolitan pizza. Really, Otto pizza is a thing unto itself. A good comparison is to look at it like this:

As you can see, the edge of the Otto crust is thin and cracker-like without any discernable effects of leavening whereas the Trianon crust has blistered puffyness at the cornicione, and overall looks much softer and more pliable. The Otto crust looks like it's barely leavened.

Have you, by any chance, been to Napoli?

. . . Otto does have an alleged D.O.C. pizza on the menu.

"Alleged" is a good word to use, because I don't think a pizza can satisfy the DOC requirements unless it is baked in a wood-fired "beehive" oven. Then again, the DOC regulations don't cary any legal weight over here, so Mario can call it a "DOC" pizza and no one will do anything about it.

[albiston]

Have been curious about the different types of pizza in Italy. Not, you know different types of pie called pizza, but different types of pizza type pizza .

Eh, yes. Well in one place in Prato (near Florence) a pizza place offers four different types. A Naples style (as shown above) and the local type (very thin base, almost crisped to cracker stage), calzone and a puffy-dough type. Different styles have different toppings.

Adam,

a very brief answer: the Neapolitan style is mostly limited to southern Italy. The crispy style is more widespread northwards. It is normally referred to as "Roman style". There is also a Sicilian style, though I'm not sure it is recognised as such, which is much more like a pan pizza.

If I have abit more time later tonight I'll try to give a more detailed answer

ciao

[Fat Guy]

In my experience the crust at Otto has been soft and pliable. I've heard many people say it's cracker-like. I've never experienced that and I've now been there quite a few times. Perhaps this photo from GordonCooks is more illustrative:

Or this one from Marlene:

I haven't been to Italy at all since I was a kid, at which time I made I think three trips and visited the key cities. I barely remember Naples, but somewhat remember Neapolitan style pizza here and there. I've had some in France as well, and of course there's the certified La Pizza Fresca here in New York made to spec with all imported ingredients. So I'm by no means expert or even legitimately familiar with actual pizza in Naples. At the same time, this is largely a technical question that can be addressed by reference to common standards. I'll try to get some La Pizza Fresca and Serafina photos to match up to these as well. Maybe someone can grab some shots in the South of France one of these days as well.

[Pan]

You have to get back to Italy, Steven!

[docsconz]

Cool thread making me extremely nostalgic. While I haven't had any pizze (or anything else) at Otto, they look to me more like pizze I've had in Tuscany than Naples and Campania.

[slkinsey]

Steven, those new pictures are certainly a lot closer to what I would think of as a Neapolitan style than the first one. Still, they don't show the signs of the explosive action on the crust that one gets in a hot Neapolitan oven, and there is something artificial-looking about them to my eye. This is probably due to their "griddled then broiled" technology. Given the unusual, quirky system in use at Otto, that's probably as close as they can come to the real thing. I still don't understand why they chose to reinvent the wheel and go that route instead of going with proven methods, but I bet it has something to do with cutting costs.

[MobyP]

Man, it's threads like these that make you proud

slkinsey got game.

[tommy]

it's pretty clear that i'm making pizza tonight. this thread was *killing* me all day long.

[Adam Balic]

Have been curious about the different types of pizza in Italy. Not, you know different types of pie called pizza, but different types of pizza type pizza .

Eh, yes. Well in one place in Prato (near Florence) a pizza place offers four different types. A Naples style (as shown above) and the local type (very thin base, almost crisped to cracker stage), calzone and a puffy-dough type. Different styles have different toppings.

Adam,

a very brief answer: the Neapolitan style is mostly limited to southern Italy. The crispy style is more widespread northwards. It is normally referred to as "Roman style". There is also a Sicilian style, though I'm not sure it is recognised as such, which is much more like a pan pizza.

If I have abit more time later tonight I'll try to give a more detailed answer

ciao

Crispy base is 'Roman Style' then. Damn I thought it may be popular in Tuscany due to the presence of schiacciata ( the crispy type, rather then the focaccia  type). Any idea if the pizza was actually introduced into the North from Naples or it something like it had always been there (pizza bianca type things maybe).

[albiston]

Any idea if the pizza was actually introduced into the North from Naples or it something like it had always been there (pizza bianca type things maybe).

It really depends on what you mean under pizza.

As you say, schiacciata in Toscana, pizza bianca in Rome, focaccia di Recco in Liguria and Sfinciuni in Sicila are all basically a kind of pizza and they were there before "Neapolian" pizza got to these regions.

On the other hand Neapolitan pizza (i.e. a round pizza topped with tomato and other ingredients, with the Margherita as no.1 classic) did indeed arrive from the south, Campania to be precise. A huge amount of pizzaioli who moved (mostly) North come from the small comunity of Tramonti, situated in the Amalfi peninsula. There's always been a bit of tension between pizzaiuoli from Tramonti and Naples, even more so recently because of the "Vera Pizza Napoletana" thing.

The pizza romana style I mentioned is, on the other hand, very probably a modification of the original recipe subsequent to the arrival of Nepolitan pizza in Rome.

[Adam Balic]

Makes sense. Tuscan pizza isn't really pizza it's just schiacciata with tomato, just like most of the stuffed pide in Turkey seem to be sold as 'pizza' also. Must remember not to mention this next time I am in Prato, otherwise I will proberly get a shoeing from a pack on enraged bean-eater "pizzaiuoli".

Very interesting about the Tramonti v Naples thing. I had wondered about the D.O.C. pizza thing and couldn't work it out as the pizza in Italy seem to vary from region to region so why try dictate what a "Pizza" really is internationally, now this makes sense...

Edited June 16, 2004 by Adam Balic (log)

[Alberts]

Not to rehash an old thread, but it may be that Bill's description of his pizza oven doesn't do it justice. We caught this shot of the oven on our recent trip to Piemonte. Is it a sign from above to make pizza?

(That's Barolo (Bussia) in my wife's glass.)

[Bill Klapp]

Thanks, Mike, I'm weeping uncontrollably at the moment. As soon as my clients give me a moment's peace, I will be serving up an update on my most recent adventures with that oven!

[Hector]

I've just returned on a trip from Campania and Lazio.. Must say that I must admire the city of Napoli very much, it has not much of the tourist friendly wealth and such, but it's instead very much an extraordinary busy and hot place which I like.

In my dining experince around Napoli I've had some real authentic pizza. I think we shouldn't talk down on good pizza just because it being the most ubiqitious dish in the universe; it's sometimes a deliacy in it's own right, just cooked properly. Real pizza, made without flaws, is a hunt for perfection. There should be no soggy crust, no burned crust, no burned bail, no bitter tomato-sauce should ever be found on a real pizza, which should be steamy and tastefull. Really great and authentic pizza is found in Napoli. The real thing Margherita fresh tomatoes, extra virgin olive oil, real crusty dough, fresh tomatoes mozzarella de buffallà..and Marinara with fresh tomatoes and garlick, is wonderfull. But I also enjoy the hardcore pizza fritta filled with salicchia and friarelli. true delicacies.

The best pizza restaurants of the time in Naples so far has been:

Da Michele

very authentic, really great..

Pizzeria Port Alba

Little bit more expensive, oldest pizzeria in the world.

Brandi

Birthplace of the margherita..

Any more great pizza experiences?

Edited August 9, 2005 by Hector (log)