eG Books-in-Depth: "Spoon"

[Anna N]

Whew! I am exhausted just reading your post! But, that's what living with a book entails! Thanks for the commitment.

[Steve Klc]

But that's the difference between trying to present professional cooking at an elite level--so you might actually come to grips with it--and churning out a celebrity chef pretend book written in that all-too-familiar, have to be made more accessible, dumbed-down home cooking style--here you're exposed to the real sometimes complicated, sometimes involved, deal. And what mastery or mystery is involved? Really just an exotic pepper which you never realized is readily available locally or via mail order, and base components like a "lemon essence" and "tomato syrup" which would be made regularly in his professional kitchen and probably used and blended in various sauces and dishes--but give credit to Ducasse and his team for giving all cooks--home and pro--a window into just how he develops depth of flavor and layers complexity in his dishes. Hopefully the book will include instructions for storage and a note about shelf-life before flavor deteriorates. We already have a surfeit of quick/easy/simple/repetitive "recipes that work" with generic components like lemon zest and diced tomato--we don't need another one from Ducasse--unless, of course, that's how he actually does it in one of his dishes.

The question will be Steve, after you do all this, how much of the depth, the layering, the complexity, can you taste? And has it made you appreciate Ducasse the professional even more?

[Fat Guy]

My appreciation grows with every page. Immersing myself in the printed material adds another dimension to my respect for what Ducasse offers to contemporary gastronomy as well as his place in the history of it. It also helps me to understand the prices at his restaurants: by the time I make some of this stuff I'm sure I'll be begging just to pay a few Euros for a plate of it prepared by a Ducasse-trained cook.

As you mention, the syrups and essences are part of a toolkit. There's definitely a reason the syrups and essences are on pages 434, 437, and 436: they are at the back of the book in a section of basic (albeit not exactly simple) flavor components that Ducasse integrates into scores of recipes throughout the book and presumably the Spoon empire. These are the building blocks of this cuisine -- not stocks and reductions of stock, which show up only here and there.

The reason the recipes seem so daunting to me as a home cook -- even setting aside some of the advanced technique -- is that the home just isn't organized around production. Were I a restaurant, I would make every one of the base elements from the back of the book on a rotating schedule so I always had a pan of each in the walk-in and a 1/6-pan of them on my station. Then I'd be ready to make all the condiments with some efficiency. Then, armed with the 75 condiments in the entry-level Spoon repertoire plus about $150 thousand worth of sous vide and other equipment, I'd be ready to cook the actual dishes.

[tan319]

Fat Guy, you're funny!!!

Just wanted to pass this on, forgive me if you're already familiar with the technique.

To do that concasse, if the recipe doesn't call for the seeds and if the tomatoes aren't blanched first, just slice the bottom of the tomato off at the core end.

Then, from the top, with the tomato on your cutting board, cut the tomato flesh off in quarters, with a nice sharp knife, leaving the middle behind with all the seeds and waterey stuff.

If you have to blanch and peel them, do that and then do the same procedure.

Mise is a pain in the ass but this kind of stuff can go in a hurry if you do all of the tops first, etc.

like the army

[tan319]

Oh, forgot to mention, ADNY gave me a price of $220, $240 all in.

Amazon.com/fr with the currency conversion figured in it would be around $178 + shipping.

Gotta figure out what my best deal would be...

[pedro]

My copy should be arriving tomorrow, 150€ shipping included from De Re Coquinaria.

I couldn't resist the temptation.

[pedro]

My appreciation grows with every page. Immersing myself in the printed material adds another dimension to my respect for what Ducasse offers to contemporary gastronomy as well as his place in the history of it. It also helps me to understand the prices at his restaurants: by the time I make some of this stuff I'm sure I'll be begging just to pay a few Euros for a plate of it prepared by a Ducasse-trained cook.

As you mention, the syrups and essences are part of a toolkit. There's definitely a reason the syrups and essences are on pages 434, 437, and 436: they are at the back of the book in a section of basic (albeit not exactly simple) flavor components that Ducasse integrates into scores of recipes throughout the book and presumably the Spoon empire. These are the building blocks of this cuisine -- not stocks and reductions of stock, which show up only here and there.

The reason the recipes seem so daunting to me as a home cook -- even setting aside some of the advanced technique -- is that the home just isn't organized around production. Were I a restaurant, I would make every one of the base elements from the back of the book on a rotating schedule so I always had a pan of each in the walk-in and a 1/6-pan of them on my station. Then I'd be ready to make all the condiments with some efficiency. Then, armed with the 75 condiments in the entry-level Spoon repertoire plus about $150 thousand worth of sous vide and other equipment, I'd be ready to cook the actual dishes.

Perhaps I'm not totally getting your point, Fat Guy. But to me, that would be a secondary reason for increasing my appreciation of Ducasse's cooking. I mean, just putting person hours into something is not a passport to success.

Of course, professional teams can achieve tasks orders of magnitude above what an individual could complete, no matter how talented the latter is. That shouldn't be a surprise since we're surrounded by examples of this in almost every discipline, from software programming to architecture. But when we admire a building, the effort in terms of labour is not one of the criteria we commonly use.

From that point of view, a top level restaurant is an interesting machine to study, since they have to balance the price of the dishes with the effort put into them (assuming that increasing the effort, i.e., constructing and using more of the "building blocks", would accordingly increase the quality of the dishes).

[Fat Guy]

Pedro, I don't mean to say I'm solely impressed with the labor intensive nature of the cuisine. If it's bad, I don't care how much work goes into it -- I won't be impressed. Likewise, I can be impressed by elegant minimalism. Still, there is a kind of virtuosity here that I find inspiring. Mostly, though, I'm reacting to the depth of thought that has clearly gone into this cuisine. Most restaurants aren't serving cuisine with much intellectual weight behind it, and I think that's one of many things that separates good craftsmanship from what could arguably be called art.

[pedro]

I see your point.

Do you know if Ducasse has a formal R&D setting as such? I'm thinking of an equivalent to El Bulli's Taller. In Spain, just El Bulli and Arzak (in a scaled down scheme) have that. In fact, I saw an interview in the Spanish Food channel with Adrià where he said that when thinking about creating El Taller, he asked to colleagues around the world and nobody had separated R&D from the production stages.

[Boris_A]

much intellectual weight behind it, and I think that's one of many things that separates good craftsmanship from what could arguably be called art.

I'm not sure about that.

I'm collecting chairs, and I'm still most impressed by the work of Hans J. Wegner, a Danish designer. I have no doubt about his intellectual weight behind his work, but I know he started as a carpenter, and almost all of his designs have this craftman breath.

And I'm sure he would refuse the notion of his chairs being art. In the contrary - I think the craftman (in a sense of Tao or Kai-Zen) requires considerably more intellectual work than art. Because those objects are mainly intended to be used or consumed. Hence they express functionality, and this functionality requires much more understanding (in the process of creation) than art. Art can be considered isolated from function. Food (or furniture) not.

With Ducasse, I believe we are impressed by the combination of function and aesthetics. In the other thread (about Ducasse's "Grand Livre de Cuisine"), I confessed that these building blocks are the most interesting part for me. And when I read the "Tomato Rougaille" recipe, I noticed exactly the same concept of building blocks, leading to a universe of possible combinations. Like writing a piece for an orchestra. Ducasse delivres the instruments. And for the first time, a master does ist so clear and detailed that even an amateur can try to emulate a bit the art of composing.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Boris_A (log)

[Fat Guy]

Pedro, yes, he does have such a facility. It's called the ADF, Alain Ducasse Formation, described on the ad-formation.com site as the "laboratoire de réflexion culinaire d'Alain Ducasse." It's not identical to Adria's taller, because Ducasse's whole organization is so different. There is a laboratory aspect, a training facility aspect, and a public education aspect, but Ducasse's empire is decentralized and a lot of the invention and training go on in the provinces and in the active restaurant kitchens. But the ADF is also an important part of the whole.

Boris, I'm probably not disagreeing with you -- the art/not-art issue may be more a question of semantics than anything else. I'll go with your word-choice of "function and aesthetics" and just say that it is Ducasse's extremely high-level and refined ideas in this regard that I find impressive. His range is also pretty amazing -- you have the Grand Livres on one the one hand, which seem to be the Guide Culinaire for today, and then you have this ultra-contemporary global cuisine vision of Spoon, where Ducasse is building a cuisine from a flavor palette that is largely divorced from the grand French tradition, although, of course, Ducasse's approach to everything is unmistakeably French.

[paulbrussel]

Do you know if Ducasse has a formal R&D setting as such? I'm thinking of an equivalent to El Bulli's Taller. In Spain, just El Bulli and Arzak (in a scaled down scheme) have that. In fact, I saw an interview in the Spanish Food channel with Adrià where he said that when thinking about creating El Taller, he asked to colleagues around the world and nobody had separated R&D from the production stages.

In Brussels, twe two star chef Yves Mattagne of Sea Grill restaurant started a few years ago his own R&D kitchen in which he works during the week-ends. At the same time, his restaurant closed during the week-ends to have time to use it with his team.

[pedro]

I've just unwrapped the carefully packaged book sent to me by De Re Coquinaria. Copy 3159 of 5000, which according to the criteria used in the first page, put me miles ahead of the closest competitor .

The first thing I immediately missed is a CD. For this kind of reference works, using that kind of media with the right content in terms of indexes, hyperlinks and such should be a must these days. I presume that comparison with El Bulli, The Books are unavoidable.

More to follow as I advance, but it looks that just browsing I found a recipe without dependences: red and green tomato essence (p. 32). A condiment, of course.

[terrarich]

I am considering purchasing either the El Bulli or Spoon book. Since a few of you have had the opportunity to look at both books I was wondering if you could recommend which one I should get and why the preference for one over the other. Keep in mind that I as a professional cook that I do have some skill and access to equipment and ingredients, but that I also understand that both texts are made more to be enjoyed mostly for their aethetic merit and historical context.

[Fat Guy]

I think you have to go with the El Bulli book, no matter what's actually in the two books. The international culinary community, at the top level, has established that the El Bulli book is part of the cultural literacy of cooking today. No such honor has yet been bestowed on the Spoon book (the Grand Livres, maybe, but not Spoon). At the same time, I imagine a working chef at a non-avant-garde restaurant might get more usable ideas from Spoon than from El Bulli, although I haven't spent enough time with the El Bulli book to be certain of that.

[tan319]

I am considering purchasing either the El Bulli or Spoon book. Since a few of you have had the opportunity to look at both books I was wondering if you could recommend which one I should get and why the preference for one over the other. Keep in mind that I as a professional cook that I do have some skill and access to equipment and ingredients, but that I also understand that both texts are made more to be enjoyed mostly for their aethetic merit and historical context.

One can cook from the El Bulli book.

I'm not sure I'm going to articulate this thought greatly but, the profile of what they do is so hyped up, and I mean that in a good way, that it's seems unreachable.

I've posted at least a few times on this.

I feel their approach is very simple, and you'll see this on the CD ROM.

Yes, they use some very different techniques, ingredients, etc., but where it really takes off is in the presentation.

If you have a fair amount of patience and a willingness to experiment, you can come up with some good results.

Definitely need a scale, a digi thermometer...

A Pacojet would be nice

If you go for it, use the UK tables, they're a lot more user friendly to a pro cook.

It's a stupendous package!

That said, can't wait to get the Spoon cookbook, I think it's going to be great.

Oh, a final thought.

I think the Adrias would be greatly disappointed if they thought people weren't going to try to cook from their books.

[paulbrussel]

A Pacojet would be nice

Don't forget the Thermomix! (Also needed to cook from the book of Marc Veyrat, btw.)

But I would go for el Bulli as well (I have both).

El Bulli is really amazing, and some recipes are really doable. It is not very easy, but experimenting will lead you to great success.

And you can always buy the simple Spoon Food & Wine to get an impression of Ducasse.

[tan319]

ahhh..., right!

Paul, if you get a chance. could you explain the Thermomix?

I think it get's more action in Europe. I only know one person in the states who has one.

Thanks!

[terrarich]

Well, I caved in and bought both books from De Re Coquinaria (thanks for the tip Pedro). Cheapest prices I could find anywhere. Hopefully my wife doesn't throttle me! I did also find out that there is a paperback version of Ducasse's "Grand Livre de Cuisine" available for about 80 euros. I have seen the Bulli book before and couldn't resist owning it myself, but the thought of getting my hands on another pivotal tome that is potentially extremely limited in its availability was too much to resist. It will be a while until I receive the Spoon or El Bulli since I had the books shipped via mail in an effort to try and save a little money.

[paulbrussel]

ahhh..., right!

Paul, if you get a chance. could you explain the Thermomix?

I think it get's more action in Europe. I only know one person in the states who has one.

Thanks!

You are very lucky! I don't know any one who has a Thermomix, accept for some restaurants.

More info on: http://www.thermomix.com/.

But prices are not available, but I thought they are around 700 USD / €.

[paulbrussel]

Well, I caved in and bought both books from De Re Coquinaria (thanks for the tip Pedro). Cheapest prices I could find anywhere. Hopefully my wife doesn't throttle me! I did also find out that there is a paperback version of Ducasse's "Grand Livre de Cuisine" available for about 80 euros.

Congratulations! :-)

I wasn't aware of Ducasse Grand Livre de Cuisine in paperback... Anyway, seems odd to me, since the book is quite heavy, and I would think it needs to be bound. Nevertheless, the info comes too late; I will get my bound copy this Saturday.

[tan319]

ahhh..., right!

Paul, if you get a chance. could you explain the Thermomix?

I think it get's more action in Europe. I only know one person in the states who has one.

Thanks!

You are very lucky! I don't know any one who has a Thermomix, accept for some restaurants.

More info on: http://www.thermomix.com/.

But prices are not available, but I thought they are around 700 USD / €.

My mentor and friend has one in his restaurant.

Only 700 bucks?

And it cooks and all that stuff?

Hmmmmm......

[pedro]

Fat Guy, when are you planning to tackle another recipe/subrecipe of this book?

[Fat Guy]

Dude, I'm still shopping for the ingredients for the first recipe!

[pedro]

Are you still trying to complete the Tomato Rougaille? Move on, man! We're waiting.