St. Peter's fish, John Dory,

[Rogelio]

A Saint Peter’s fish

I gess the name is John Dory

[MiguelCardoso]

Off-topic: speaking of John Dory ("peixe galo" in Portuguese) I have at least six friends and several more acquaintances who have stopped eating it because of the loveable character in the Little Nemo Disney film. A strange reaction in a country that eats more fish than any other, is it not?

My own befuddled explanation is that the movie's "message" (if it has one) is that eating fish of any sort is wrong because, hey, they're just like human beings - Disney's familiar but effective mantra. So, instead of wholeheartedly embracing this insufferable prohibition, sensitive souls have elected to single out the John Dory alone.

The price of John Dory has actually gone down, but (unless it's my imagination) you don't see it on restaurant menus as often as before Little Nemo.

[pedro]

Miguel, if that's the case, let's pray they choose a goose barnacle as the star for their next movie.

PS: Rogelio, much to my surprise, I found that Saint Peter's fish seems to be an acceptable way to refer to San Pedro in English. At least, according to my source.

[vserna]

Indeed, both John Dory and St. Peter's fish are British names for Zeus faber, the French saint-pierre. Curiously, in Spain we have two saints competing for the name - San Pedro and San Martín.

[Pontormo]

This thread is quite dated, I realize. However, I found it while conducting a related search.

While the discussion concerns the John Dory, a number of fish have been called Saint Peter's fish because of a story in Matthew in which Peter renders unto Caesar what is Caesar's by fetching a coin out of a fish's mouth and handing it over to the tax collector.

For the John Dory, see Adam Balic's picture in a fascinating thread on Fish, in General Food Topics. Look for Post #171 on February 1, then read captions. The prominent dark circle on either side of the fish inspires the biblical name; it is there that Peter pressed down with his thumb and fingers when catching the fish, leaving an imprint.

However, tilapias are also called St. Peter's fish. (Click on the button to read the Web site in Spanish, and the name "St. Peter's Fish" will disappear. Hmmm.)

FYI: Here's an Italian fresco (Masaccio, 1420's, Florence, Brancacci Chapel, Santa Maria del Carmine) that represents the Tribute Money. You'll notice Peter in the background to the far left catching the fish, and in the

foreground, right, delivering the coin to the Roman collector.

I am curious and would like to know more about the Spanish name "Pez de San Martin."

One of the earliest biographies of saints took Saint Martin as its subject, so it's a source for a lot miracles and good acts attributed to saints. However, I can't find anything related to fish in one of the most highly circulated, popular versions of his life, except a moment when he tells birds to stop dive-bombing fish and they obey. That can't be the source. Does any one know more about the local tradition and association of the fish with this biship saint?

Edited March 29, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[wesza]

A Saint Peter’s fish

I gess the name is John Dory

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Rogelio:

I'm sorry but you have been misinformed.

"St Peters Fish", as referred to in the Bible is a species of the same fish now more popularly known as the "Talipia" probably considered one of the most adaptable species of Fresh Water Fishes in Africa and Asia Minor regions until recently being cultivated at Fish Farms all over the world.

It is so adaptable that after initially being introduced to Hawaii it proliferated so extensively that it has adapted to salt and brackish waters in the Islands.

The John Dory is sometimes confused with the "Orange Roughy" commonly known as the "Slime Head" until becoming more commercially successful under the name of "Orange Roughy".

The "John Dory" is indigenous to many Ocean waters but has become popular keeping it's own name.

There are several popular fish caught off the Island on Madeira that are when caught there considered the best tasting of it's species in the world " Madeira Belt Fish", receives premium price in Asian Markets.

Irwin

[Pontormo]

Irwin: Please read my post above and consult ALL links.

There are several fish called St. Peter's fish, not just tilapia.

See Adam Balic's photograph as well as images you'll find through googling, such as this from Australia where the connection between the John Dory and name St. Peter's is explained.

You'll also find many Web sites geared towards people more interested in Biblical subjects than fish that provide the same association between tilapia and Saint Peter the fisherman that also caught my eye.

In Spain, you'll notice, the John Dory IS called St. Peter's fish, or as also noted in an earlier post, St. Martin's fish (or the Fish of St. Peter, etc.).

[wesza]

Irwin:  Please read my post above and consult ALL links.

There are several fish called St. Peter's fish, not just tilapia.

See Adam Balic's photograph as well as images you'll find through googling, such as this from Australia where the connection between the John Dory and name St. Peter's is explained.

You'll also find many Web sites geared towards people more interested in Biblical subjects than fish that provide the same association between tilapia and Saint Peter the fisherman that also caught my eye.

In Spain, you'll notice, the John Dory IS called St. Peter's fish, or as also noted in an earlier post, St. Martin's fish (or the Fish of St. Peter, etc.).

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Portormo:

My criteria for the explanations are based upon the merchandising, historical associations and species of the fish themselves. In eGullet it's how the fish tastes, what it's called where you purchase it and how should I cook it best. Since I have been involved with many species of seafood formally under utilized but now well known I only hope to simplify what may not be general knowledge.

Local names of specific seafoods varies all over the world, but shouldn't effect the species themselves. A good example is Mahi Mahi also called Dolphin that has absolutely no connection to or association with the species of Porpoises also called Dolphin.

The "Talipia" has been called the "St. Peters Fish" ever since it was concluded by scholars to have been the species referred to in the Bible. It also has various African names, but they are all from related species now generally known as "Talipia", still existing thru out Israel, Africa and Asia Minor with no other fish being comparable.

There are indeed many fishes with regional names, especially in the Snapper family where Porgy, Tai or Scup are only a few for the same or similar species in addition to other regional names that are common in most oceans.

John Dory being insidious to so many ocean areas has in excess of 30 different local names I am aware of, but I'm sure there are more.

The ideal way to ascertain different species of Fish is by the Latin Names that remain the same no matter what popular name it's called locally.

If you look in Fish photos from various locations there are always some similarities. names or variations but whatever it's called is first the regional name, followed eventually by the Latin name.

I am always interested in learning more about any of the foods we consume, historically, biblically and traditionally it what makes being part of eGullet so special.

Irwin

Irwin

[Adam Balic]

The "Dory" bit in the name refers to the golden sheen on the skin of very fresh fish. In English the fish was know as "dorre" (various spellings) long before it gained the 'John' attachment. For some reason the English went through a period of attaching personal names to the pre-exisitng ones of various birds, animals and fish etc. Most are no longer used ("Jenny Wren", "Tom Tit" etc), but at least one has survived "Maggie Pie = magpie".

In Australian waters we have a 'John Dory' which is the same genus, but a different species.

Regarding Talipia, the species found in the Sea of Galilee is Sarotherodon galilaeus galilaeus, there are many different types of this fish found thoughout Africa and I am betting that the species used most often in Aquaculture are not Sarotherodon galilaeus galilaeus, therefore I would look to marketing, rather then tradition for the naming of fish you see on the slab.

As for St. Martin. The one I know about is commonly associated harvests (especially wine) and geese and kicked out the pagans from the Loire. There are likely to have been more then on chap with the name though.

[Pontormo]

Portormo:

My criteria for the explanations are based upon the merchandising, historical associations and species of the fish themselves. In eGullet it's how the fish tastes, what it's called where you purchase it and how should I cook it best. Since I have been involved with many species of seafood formally under utilized but now well known I only hope to simplify what may not be general knowledge.

Irwin

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Since the quote used to begin this thread is not offered in any sort of context, I presumed the exchanges concerned one of at least two different fishes that are associated with St. Peter for different reasons. The original posts do not offer pictures that would help determine whether that fish of 2004 was either a Zeus faber/John Dory/St. Peter's fish or a tilipia/St. Peter's fish.

Are you saying that the Spanish use the term "Pez de San Pedro" for a fish that is actually tilapia and not the John Dory/Zeus faber since they have access only to the former and not the latter? That Web sites I have linked are not accurate? You may, instead, be aware of the source of the original quote that alludes me.

My interest is purely in the haigiographical names assigned to the fish.

As for the origin of the name John Dory, thanks for the explanation that has nothing to do with pirates, Adam.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Pontormo (log)

[Rogelio]

This was the original thread where the quote comes from.

The fish that we were talking about was a John Dory, the Zeus Faber above mentined.

[JesusBarquin]

The fish that we were talking about was a John Dory, the Zeus Faber above mentined.

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Not only called in Spain Pez de San Pedro or plainly Sampedro), but also Gallo de San Pedro or (particularly in Almería) Gallopedro.

[Pontormo]

So the fish crows three times?

[nimzo]

Not to be confused with the Mexican gallo, a completely different and much bigger species, still good eating though.

[Rogelio]

There is also an spanish Gallo fish, the Lepidorhombus whiffiagonis.

[nimzo]

There is also an spanish Gallo fish, the Lepidorhombus whiffiagonis.

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The Common Megrim by any chance?

[Saborosa]

This interesting list gives us some idea of the scale of the 'issue':

http://www.fishbase.org/comnames/CommonNam...&StockCode=1388

I think I might start using the Turkish name. Pretty catchy (pun initially unintended).

Note the ratio of vernacular to official names, the number of varying and sometimes confusing and conflicting local names within one country and the influence of european naming on former colonies.

As previously noted both gall and gallo are used in Spain for John Dory and and megrim. And, according to my official catalan nomenclature of species of commercial interest, gall can be a cockle, as well as a megrim and a john dory.

I think it's right that what's important is being able to identify a fish in order to know how to cook it and what it's going to taste like, and the most reliable way to do that is to know a fish by sight, not what it's called (and anyone can tell the difference between a cockle and a flat fish!) as the vagaries of naming by fishmongers can be vary from stall to stall let alone place to place. The most useful thing might be to learn as much as you can then accept that the only thing you really know is that you know nothing.

But, getting back to the tilapia controversy - in a Spanish forum, surely it's the Spanish names that are important!

[Saborosa]

Appropriately enough, megrim was also an old term for migraine.

[Adam Balic]

Added to this issue is that fish from all over the world turn up in unexpected places. I have seen Indo-Pacific fish sold off wheelbarrow type stalls in Liguria. Scientific names help a great deal, but are not practical at the market, which is where being familiar with the fish is important, which you should be anyway if you want to cook it sucessfully.

[Saborosa]

Added to this issue is that fish from all over the world turn up in unexpected places. I have seen Indo-Pacific fish sold off wheelbarrow type stalls in Liguria. Scientific names help a great deal, but are not practical at the market, which is where being familiar with the fish is important, which you should be anyway if you want to cook it sucessfully.

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Actually I think most fish on most tables (in the West) comes from pretty far away as the fishing industry seeks new sources away from the traditional, overfished fisheries, such as the Med. I also expect that this will lead to more 'creative' naming - see Chilean sea bass/Patagonian toothfish.

This can be good if it means you're buying fish from sustainable sources, but then there's the food miles to consider. There's a stall in my local market that sells fish from local boats - it feels good buying there because you can read the names of the fisherman and his wife on the printed fish auction labels (at least that's what i tell myself) and it's very fresh (a few customers recently turned a bit green as the fishmonger skinned a still flapping lenguado) but it also feels terrible because a hell of a lot of the fish seem really juvenile.

So as well as being familiar with the fish to identify it, it's probably a good idea to be familiar with where and how it has been caught and how big it should be. Although all this may just persuade you to become a vegetarian instead. But then you've got a whole other set of questions... is it organic, local, seasonal....?

[JesusBarquin]

There is also an spanish Gallo fish, the Lepidorhombus whiffiagonis.

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In fact, more than one, Rogelio.

A couple of days ago I ate Zeus faber in El Puerto de Santa María and my friend at the table reminded me that the popular name in the coast of Cádiz and Huelva for that fish (and its near parent the rarer Zenopsis conchifer) is, simply, Gallo, the same as for Lepidorhombus whiffiagonis and boscii. In Sevilla, at least when I was younger, these are called Gallo and the former, Pez de San Pedro, but the fine and delicious Citharus linguatula is called Gallito or Gallo de Isla, instead of Solleta o Tapaculo, as in other areas.

I see, this is a real mess for almost everybody...

Conclusion: Latin rules!

[Adam Balic]

(and its near parent the rarer Zenopsis conchifer) is, simply, Gallo,

Conclusion: Latin rules! 

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In Australian waters a close relative Zenopsis nebulosus are landed. They are usually cheaper then John Dory, but much larger (up to 60 cm).

Scientific names do rule.