THE BEST: NYC Restaurant Neighborhood

[robert brown]

I am not sure what the best restaurant neighborhood is, but I can tell you what the worst is: the Upper East Side.

Wilfrid, what does the "D" stand for?

[TCD]

I am not sure what the best restaurant neighborhood is, but I can tell you what the worst is: the Upper East Side.

Wilfrid, what does the "D" stand for?

What do consider to be the south and north boundries of the upper east side?

[Ellen Shapiro]

If you define the Upper East Side as inclusive of Yorkville and Carnegie Hill, the boundaries are 59th and 96th Streets, Fifth Avenue and the River. That would put Daniel, Cello, Cafe Boulud, Bid, Butterfield 81, Etats Unis, Mark's, and a host of other good spots on the Upper East Side. I think the Upper East Side stacks up very well against for example the Upper West Side or the Garment District.

I've written two books about New York City, both guidebook-type books, and the first fight you always have with the publisher and the cartographer in that situation is over the definitions of neighborhoods. There are so many ways to go about it. There's the way the community districts are divided up, which is also reflected in the way the census is taken. There are various quasi-official maps like the NYCVB and TLC maps. I actually think the NYCVB map is a pretty good starting point:

http://nycvisit.com/maps.html

But of course if you're a real New Yorker you know that all these maps have flaws and don't accurately reflect what the neighborhoods are being called in the most deeply rooted New York vernacular. So you have to wind up telling people, yes, I know that block is technically part of that neighborhood, but the people who live there think they live in another neighborhood and so does everyone else who knows about this stuff. It's a real pain, and that's not even getting into the issue of whether or not we should accept new neighborhood designations that are still debated by some. I mean, the East Village is pretty firmly rooted now and as a guidebook author I'd be doing my readers a disservice to call the neighborhood the Lower East Side anymore. But NoLIta, DUMBO, and others, now there you get some debate.

The Gramercy/Flatiron neighborhood -- to the extent that even makes sense as a designation -- is a good example. What are its boundaries? Beats me.

[Pan]

It's worse than that.  I work alongside people who are either New Yorkers or at least have been hanging around the city longer than me, and I have drawn blanks with the phrase "Alphabet City".  I now tell people I am moving to the East Village.  I wouldn't, in truth, call it the East Village, but at least I don't get vacant stares.

So you really _are_ moving to Av. D. (At first, I thought you might have been joking.) Would that be a side street, or are you actually going to be living on the avenue itself? For the many of you who don't know, with all the gentrification happening on the Lower East Side, Av. D has been a holdout (i.e. it remains kind of dicey, especially at night) because of the low-income housing projects between the avenue and East River Park that run all the way from Houston St. to the Con Edison plant between 13th and 14th Sts. Even people in this neighborhood who don't have a specific reason to go to Av. D (e.g. to see fireworks on July 4 or because they know someone who lives there) generally steer clear of it. I've walked on that avenue and felt like the few blocks east put me into a different world, and not one I figure on returning to often for recreational purposes.

Yes, this is the Lower East Side. The "East Village" concept hasn't had a great impact on Av. D, I think, though I seem to recall some bodega or/and drugstore on that avenue with "East Village" in its name. As for me (living on 7th St. between 1st and 2nd), I tend to say that I live in the East Village or/and the Lower East Side, as both designations apply.

[Bux]

I've thought of the East Village as part of the Lower East Side, but understand that some people think of "lower" as below Houston. Virtually no restaurants there, but what about the strip between the Flat Iron District and Chelsea. Is that Ladies Mile still, or yet? hell's Kitchen is going fast. hell's Hundred Acres has disappeared, no? The Indian restaurants are in Rose Hill, yes?

[cabrales]

Daniel, Cello, Cafe Boulud, Bid, Butterfield 81, Etats Unis, Mark's, and a host of other good spots on the Upper East Side. I think the Upper East Side stacks up very well against for example the Upper West Side or the Garment District.

Ellen -- I agree with your assessment of that area, although it's clearly not the most promising restaurant area in the city.  Maya and Sushi of Gari (preferably, the unfortunately expensive special platter) are other restaurants I would be happy to eat at on the Upper East Side.  JoJo is marginally improved; Aureole appeals to certain diners more than others and could be "spotty".

March is on the borders of the area you defined, at 58th, and would be my pick among the Upper East Siders (with a nod to Cello).  Then, for brunch, Sarabeth's (the jam!) would be fine.

On the Upper West Side, what have members heard about the French Laundry offshoot recently?

[Ruby]

"The Indian restaurants are in Rose Hill, yes?"

Bux, yes the community district has been trying to get the name Rosehill designated as an official neighborhood. It's also affectionately called "Curry Hill."

The neighborhood I live in also falls within one of those gray areas. I call it Murray Hill although I know it's officially not and others call it Kips Bay or Rosehill. Somehow, Murray Hill has more cachet plus my New York Magazine subscription label is printed Murray Hill, New York - I figure if it's good enough for the magazine and the post office delivers it, Murray Hill it is!  

[Wilfrid]

Thank you, Pan, for the words of comfort, and no, it wasn't a joke.  I have observed the steady gentrification of the Avenues over the last few years, and the transformation is amazing.  Avenue C is now littered with bijou boutiques, lounges and twee restaurants.  Avenue D is the final frontier, and it's still fairly barren.  On the one hand, one thinks that since Avenues A to C have gone upmarket, Avenue D will inevitably follow.  On the other, there is indeed the gloomy presence of the projects just across the street.  We are a mixed race family, and my partner and baby should be fairly safe in the area.  I probably won't be wandering around in my fancy frock coat, tapping a tattoo on the pavement with my silver-topped cane.

Bottom line: we need a lot more space, and in Gramercy Park that's for millionaires.

In case the thread isn't all about me, a couple of observations:

I didn't have much time for research last night, but I did notice that, if you go back a hundred years, writers referred to the whole area from the Lower East up just as "the East Side" (Riis, Howells, for example).  "Lower" and "Upper" seem to be later distinctions.  And personally, I find Avenues A to C to much like a continuation of the East Village in terms of population, atmosphere and general feel, and not very much like the Lower East Side below Houston.  Hard to be specific about that, but it's how it feels to me.

[robert brown]

Living near 86 and Lex. I shrunk the Upper East Side. Thus when I say it is not a good neighborhood for restaurants, I was no doubt thinking about Carnegie Hill, the Italian joints along 2nd Ave, and so forth. Even so, some of the places mentioned that are in the 60s and 70s are, to my mind, overrated and overpriced. I'll admit there are some high-profile names befitting the socio-economic profile of the district, but I don't find good Chinese, Indian, Japanese, Italian or even pizzerias such as those you find mid-town and below 14th Street. When I want to go out and have an interesting meal that affords some value for money, I can't think of more than a few places near where I live. All the restaurants I have found to be of solid interest-Craft, Blue Hill, Nobu, Salaam Bombay, Dim Sum GoGo, Babbo, Lupa-are places I have to schlepp to.

[ajay]

where is salaam bombay, and what kind of food does it serve?

[robert brown]

Ajay, it's an Indian restaurant in Tribeca on Greenwich St, near Duane. It's one of the very best Indian restaurants in the city with several dishes that you do not always see in even the other good places. I wish I could get down there more often.

[ajay]

Salaam Bombay definatley sounds worth a trip...thanks for the tip...i'll report back when I go.

[Fat Guy]

Robert, you're a self-hating Upper East Sider, plain and simple!

[Pan]

I didn't have much time for research last night, but I did notice that, if you go back a hundred years, writers referred to the whole area from the Lower East up just as "the East Side" (Riis, Howells, for example).  "Lower" and "Upper" seem to be later distinctions.  And personally, I find Avenues A to C to much like a continuation of the East Village in terms of population, atmosphere and general feel, and not very much like the Lower East Side below Houston.  Hard to be specific about that, but it's how it feels to me.

That's interesting, Wilfred.

I agree that Avs. A, B, and to some extent C are more and more extensions of the East Village, but I also consider "East Village" a somewhat questionable name, and often use "Lower East Side" for the whole area, though that can give rise to some confusion among people who - as Bux mentioned - reserve the latter moniker for locations south of Houston.

By the way, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that you'll get raped and murdered on Av. D, just that it's still a kind of edgy place. If the trends that were taking place before the economic downturn and the terrorist atrocities recommence, Av. D would presumably gentrify to some degree, probably beginning first on side streets (where it may have already begun).

By the way, for a combination of variety and good value, I'd tend to rank the East Village and hell's Kitchen as #1 and #2 in Manhattan, though I agree with the observation that the cheapest good food in abundance in Manhattan is found in Chinatown. Of course, there's more to New York City than Manhattan.

[robert brown]

Steven, I have no intention of moving in the hopes that you will conceive and execute the perfect restaurant in walking distance of both our houses.

[Ruby]

Pan wrote: I agree that Avs. A, B, and to some extent C are more and more extensions of the East Village, but I also consider "East Village" a somewhat  questionable name, and often use "Lower East Side" for the whole area, though that can give rise to some confusion among people who - as Bux mentioned - reserve the latter moniker for locations south of Houston."

I kind of agree because Avenue A extends all the way down to Ludlow Street and East Houston Street so for that part of Avenue A, I do consider it the Lower East Side.

Just to clear up any confusion for people not familiar with the area, Bux mentioned "reserve the latter moniker for locations south of Houston." That would mean EAST Houston Street. The term 'South of Houston' refers to the area now known as SoHo (south of West Houston Street). Slightly confusing. When I lived in SoHo on Prince Street, about 500 B.C., it was considered part of  Little Italy. Now SoHo is broken up again with the area called NoLita (north of Little Italy)  How's that for confusion to the average shlub who just wants to find a good restaurant?  

[Bux]

SoHo, although its name derives from SOuth or HOuston has never reallyu referred to the whole of Manhattan south of Houston, nor to all of Manhattan between Houston and Canal. For the most part SoHo only refers to the heart of that area. The narrow definition would be from Broadway to West Broadway and a broader definition would extend from a half block west of West Broadway to someplace around Crosby or Layfayette. There are probably two legal SoHo districts. One set by the zoning and the other by landmark designation. For instance the SoHo zoning covers both sides of West Broadway, but only the east side is landmarked. For most of the residents in the early seventies the zoning was the crtical issue. To the east it was Little Italy and to the west it was usually the south village. But of course real estate brokers will attach the best adjacent designation to any piece of property they are advertising. It's much like Puligny becoming Puligny-Montrachet.

[Fat Guy]

Bux I think you scared everyone off this thread with all your talk of zoning.

[juuceman]

I certainly fall into the category of someone who rarely goes to the Gramercy/Flatiron area except to eat, get sworn in at the courthouse, or trade in my cable box. But I think if you're in the publishing industry, or you work for an Internet company, or you have to appear at the Appellate Division regularly, your belief in the neighborhood might be a little more pronounced.

slightly offtopic, but you started it so..

fyi: the courthouse is currently undergoing renovation.. as such, the swearing in ceremony is being held at the Association of the Bar of the City of New York courthouse on 44th..

[JennyUptown]

Funny.

I wonder how Wilfrid's move panned out. Looks like he (Wilfrid = he, right?) is inactive now.

[tommy]

Funny.

I wonder how Wilfrid's move panned out. Looks like he (Wilfrid = he, right?) is inactive now.

it worked out just fine as far as i remember. he singled handedly made ave d hip, although the median age jumped up a few points when he moved in.

[foodboy]

The best block overall (not just for restaurants) is 20th St. between Park and Broadway:

Gramercy Tavern

Patria

Teddy Roosevelt's Birthplace

Location of the first Ramones Rehearsal

Veritas (though I've never been there)

A reasonably-priced hooker named "Cheetah"

[JennyUptown]

The best block overall (not just for restaurants) is 20th St. between Park and Broadway:

Gramercy Tavern

Patria

Teddy Roosevelt's Birthplace

Location of the first Ramones Rehearsal

Veritas (though I've never been there)

A reasonably-priced hooker named "Cheetah"

For two years, I lived in an apartment on PAS facing 20th Street. Of course I was 21 and 22, broke and thus could not afford to eat in any of the lovely restaurants nearby!

Fortunately when I lived on Cornelia Street, my finances had caught up with my tastes, more or less. Although Mario Batali had moved on from Po by that time, I still enjoyed eating there with great frequency.