Steak

[Andy Lynes]

I've eaten at Juniper and met Paul Kitching, albeit before he went quite so left of field. He is very nice but very "full on". He has an excess of energy and I think that is now finding release in his 40 course marathon dinners, much of which he makes up on the spot. One of his ex-head chefs told me that it was almost impossible to keep him out of the kitchen and that he would turn up on his days off. So yes he's dedicated, obsessed maybe a little odd, but an idiot? no.

I actually ate fillet of beef when I dined at Juniper and it struck me as fillet always does - as being rather disappointing.

[Andy Lynes]

and his ignorance about steak and meat is suprising.....

Chef Kitching trained with some very fine chefs in the UK including Shaun Hill and Ian McAndrew, both of whom place a great deal of emphasis on the quality of the raw ingredient. He's been cooking for a long time now, has a Michelin star and so I think we can safely assume his knowledge is as it should be in this area. He is most definately not some johnny-come-lately know-nothing chef. Heston Blumethal is a fan and calls him a great chef Kitching appears to me to be expressing an opinion and a preference here, which is entirely his right.

[John Whiting]

Blumenthal's admirable report reminds me of my wife's several books on feeding children, in which she describes "pattern" foods which can help to overcome a child's resistance to the unfamiliar.

few people would relish drinking from a potty, albeit a new one

A college friend of mine came from a mid-California family in which Haloween was celebrated with a brand-new chamberpot in the center of the table, full of hot steaming cider with a couple of twisted doughnuts floating in it.

[robyn]

What I did dismiss was his snottily superior statements about the relative merits of cuts of beef, and his outright misinformation about the makeup of the cut he so loves. (Just to remind you, there is NOT, nor should there be, intramuscular blood...

If there isn't blood in beef - what's the point of "koshering it" to remove the blood?

This is a description of the koshering process: "After kosher slaughter, meat must be "koshered" before it becomes acceptable for consumption. The process of koshering removes any blood that may remain in meat. To kosher a beef carcass, only the forequarter is used...First, veins, arteries and certain nonacceptable fats are removed from meat by highly trained specialists. After deveining, the meat is soaked in cold water, salted, then allowed to drain for a period of time to aid in the removal of blood from the meat. Following the draining process, the meat is rinsed in cold water."

Robyn

[Mabelline]

I've got a crazy solution; one of youall across the water who's a writer go interview him for eGullet. Then we can get to the true brass tacks of the hue and cry, and he can be given more of a chance to illumine us, hmm?

The only thing I take exception to, truly, was the statement of the ribsteak being the refuge of a cheap restaurant. Tell that to Ruth's Chris, Del Frisco, Peter Luger, etc.

[rlibkind]

Let's note that the chef didn't post those comments here on eGullet. There were taken from another text and reposted here. I don't know the original context, so I'm less eager to call him an idiot until I learn more about what he has to say in greater context.

The quote was taken from the recipe section of Juniper Restaurant's website.

[Andy Lynes]

I've got a crazy solution; one of youall across the water who's a writer go interview him for eGullet.

I've emailed Chef Kitching and asked if he would like to contribute to this thread or make a statement which I can post for him. I don't hold out a lot of hope however as the tone of the thread is so unnecessarily negative.

If I were to interview him, I'd do it from a positive angle. I really have no wish to act as Spanish Inquisition on the basis of what has been posted so far.

[Mabelline]

Oh, Lordy, I hope it didn't sound that way! I am of course respectfully asking for his side. I just figured we seem to be -ahem!- grilling him without input.

Andy, just so long as that Dr. Batch critter doesn't interview him

[tommy]

where's bux? waiting for his follow-up. his implications (the insulting implications...or perhaps "condescending implications" is a better phrase, and one which is never overused in this particular case) seem to touch on some of the posts here on egullet, and i think he should take an active part in this discussion after he made those above comments. or maybe that part of the discussion isn't worth his time?

Edited February 23, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Suzanne F]

If there isn't blood in beef - what's the point of "koshering it" to remove the blood? . . .

I don't know; I wasn't around when those rules were made. Perhaps they refer to any residual blood that might be left in the blood vessels that cannot be removed and remain in muscles (such as microscopic capillaries).

As I quoted from Robert Wolke's book, What Einstein Told His Cook, to you (Robyn) privately, the red in muscles is not blood but myoglobin. I believe Wolke more than I believe any religious rules promulgated long before there was much accurate scientific knowledge.

(edited to correct misspelling)

Edited February 23, 2004 by Suzanne F (log)

[robyn]

If there isn't blood in beef - what's the point of "koshering it" to remove the blood? . . .

I don't know; I wasn't around when those rules were made. Perhaps they refer to any residual blood that might be left in the blood vessels that cannot be removed and remain in muscles (such as microscopic capillaries).

As I quoted from Robert Wolke's book, What Einstein Told His Cook, to you (Robyn) privately, the red in muscles is not blood but myglobin. I believe Wolke more than I believe any religious rules promulgated long before there was much accurate scientific knowledge.

I was trying to tell you - in a nice way - privately - that there is indeed blood in muscles. And I'm not relying on Kosher dietary laws - just modern (? because it's hundreds of years old - maybe Harvey in the 17th century? ) - medical knowledge. If you think that all our blood circulates through our bodies in a closed system of blood vessels - and that the blood isn't in contact with the rest of the body - well - that's just plain wrong.

The purpose of the vessels is to deliver a never-ending supply of blood and the oxygen it carries to all parts of the body - including muscles. Because - without oxygen - parts of the body die. That's basically what happens when a person has a heart attack (the heart is a muscle). Or when circulation fails for some reason and a person gets gangrene. Or when the blood flow to the brain is cut off - that's a stroke and the affected cells in the brain die. When your muscles need more oxygen than the blood that's flowing into them has - like if you're a long distance bike rider - or a marathon runner - you can wind up with some very uncomfortable/painful/dangerous conditions related to anaerobic exercise.

I'm not sure what this has to do with cooking (you'd have to ask Chef Adria about that - I know a heck of a lot more about medicine than I know about cooking). All I was trying to say is that Chef Kitching is right about the fact that there's blood in muscles - and you're wrong for criticizing him for making that statement.

I suspect that although chefs aren't trained in medicine - they do acquire a fair amount of knowledge about animal anatomy and physiology in the course of their work. In any event - even if he was just guessing - Chef Kitching got this one right. Robyn

[Suzanne F]

Your are, of course, absolutely correct when you say

The purpose of the vessels is to deliver a never-ending supply of blood and the oxygen it carries to all parts of the body - including muscles. Because - without oxygen - parts of the body die. That's basically what happens when a person has a heart attack (the heart is a muscle). Or when circulation fails for some reason and a person gets gangrene. Or when the blood flow to the brain is cut off - that's a stroke and the affected cells in the brain die. When your muscles need more oxygen than the blood that's flowing into them has - like if you're a long distance bike rider - or a marathon runner - you can wind up with some very uncomfortable/painful/dangerous conditions related to anaerobic exercise.

(emphasis added)

You are discussing the need for oxygen throughout the body. Yup, can't dispute that. But are you saying that the blood itself oozes out into our tissue under the best circumstances (not, for example, in the case of an aneurysm, which is as likely as a stroke to cause severe brain damage) in an open system, well, how about this from the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

There are two basic types of blood circulatory systems—open and closed. In an open system, the blood flows out of vessels and directly bathes the internal body tissues. In a closed system, the blood never leaves its network of vessels; exchange of materials between the blood and tissues occurs across the walls of the capillaries, the tiniest blood vessels. Arthropods (insects, spiders, and crustaceans) have an open system, as do most mollusks. The cephalopod mollusks (squids and octopuses), however, have a closed system, as do the annelid worms and all vertebrates.

Last time I looked, humans were vertebrates. The EB goes on to talk about how inefficient an open system is for delivering oxygen rapidly.

Now, why don't you go learn to cook?

[robyn]

Your are, of course, absolutely correct when you say...

I'm not here to give lessons in elementary medicine. You know - I've been listening the last couple of weeks to people like Alan Greenspan, John Kerry and John Edwards talking about the need for more education in the US in the areas of science and mathematics. Although John Edwards is probably the most knowledgeable person when it comes to medicine (because he was a malpractice lawyer - and that's what I did) - they're all right. Anyway - Chef Kitching was right here. And that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. I hope his food is as worthy of this spirited defense as his knowledge of basic anatomy (if he's listening - I'll be in London in May ).

By the way - I'm a fair cook - considering that I got a late start (I did medical legal work for about 20 years before I discovered where my kitchen was). Robyn

Edited February 23, 2004 by robyn (log)

[JMayer]

Hello,

While reading the numerous responses in this thread I was struck by a quote by Jean-Francois Revel in Culture and Cuisine, “Hence it is language more than cuisine that has its fashions. It is more the word than the content that sustains cuisine…” “There are very few creations in cuisine, so let recreations amuse us!” To me it seems many chefs are pushing the boundaries of phrasing on menus, and creating names for dishes that both inspire and shock. The chef at Juniper is doing nothing more than playing with language (writers and poets have been doing it for countless centuries). So, let chefs have their fun! The judgment on the quality of a chef should be made by the food he or she puts out.

Personally, I enjoy menus that are written in a concise and elegant manner with the occasional wit thrown in to delight the diner (As opposed to menus such as Juniper's). However, this is just my personal preference.

Yours in food,

Justin

P.S The comments the chef made on meat are ridiculous, but since when did chefs have to be politically correct and try to satisfy everyone. I would rather have someone be honest about his or her beliefs then hear a bunch of BS!

Edited February 23, 2004 by JMayer (log)

[Bux]

Heston Blumethal is a fan and calls him a great chef

I enjoyed reading that very much. I don't know it convinced me that Kitching is a great cook anymore than anyone else has convinced me he's an idiot, but it was enjoyable to read what Blumenthal said. It was even more enjoyable to be a witness to his attitude.

[thom]

All,

Andy, thanks for the wise comments RE Paul's pedigree.

Let's go back to the original post quoting Paul's words. Do we all agree with it? Obviously not. The real question though (based on this threads evolution) is: Does this isolated comment provide enough evidence to discount his restaurant and damn his skills as a chef? Obviously not.

Paul does like to write in a way with blends irony and passion with a soupcon of (mild) lunacy, and the quotes don't always reflect the man or his cooking. The last faux pas I remember was when he mentioned the fairly rugged style of critique you could expect from his local clientele - "they'd come and brick your windows" were his words I think, which didn't go down well with the local press.

Genuinely, does anyone here believe a chef should be judged on a soundbite rather than on his cooking?

Lets recount the basic points here: Paul Kitching made a provocative comment about steak that many here disagree with. This is not enough material to judge his skills as a chef or a restaurant. As a chef lauded by Heston and Ramsay, mentored by Shaun Hill, and feted by Michelin and the Good Food Guide I think it is fair to assume he knows more about steak specifically and cooking generally than most posters here. The people who have eaten his food declare him a fine chef indeed.

Give the guy a break, come eat his food.

Oh, a quick aside: Comparing Manchester to Cleveland? Please, Manchester is Britains second city in terms of culture and cuisine. It has consistently had more good restaurants (according to Hardens, Michelin, Good Food, Time Out guides) than any British city except London, and it's broad cultural mix means you can eat anything from Korean to Danish, Armenian to Malaysian. We may not be London, but I don't think we are Cleveland...

Cheers

Thom

[Carlovski]

What have I started

I hope I won't have to go in disguise if I do venture to Altrincham!

For the record, I think any attack on his stance on beef cookery is justified, after all his website in effect attacked other restaurants for serving what in Paul's eyes is an inferior cut of meat.

Some of the reactions to the rest of his cuisine, not based on first hand experience has been unfair though.

Andy, it would be great if we could here from the man himself.

[Scott]

Those who dismiss his cooking outright without experience are hardly worth my time to read.

Very, Very well said

[Bux]

I think Heston Blumenthal was far more interesting and eloquent, but he had the advantage of eating in Juniper. Perhaps that reinforces my position that experience is of great benefit when speaking about a subject.

Thom spoke well a couple of times in this thread, but I think he does an injustice to the home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

I have to agree with his opinion that one shouldn't judge a man or a restaurant entirely on a sound bite. We should be free to judge the merits of the sound bite and by extension one can say something about a man who allows himself to be represented by the sound bite. Although it's but a small part of his web site, it was a complete and separate statement that should be able to stand alone. Then again, why should any of us feel he's displeased by all the time, effort and words we spend dismissing his beef? Has this thread really been bad public relations for him?

[thom]

Bux,

You're right; as the story in The Independent has shown Paul takes criticism personally, but only in the sense of wanting to respond personally rather than simply stamping his be-clogged feet. I think he would be interested in a Q&A here, and judging by the way this thread took off I am sure he would attract a crowd.

As regards the Cleveland comment, I hang my head in shame. I did not mean to besmirch anothers hometown, particularly one whose rich cultural tapestry includes the Rock and Roll hall of Fame...

Cheers

Thom

[Matt]

I think it is outrageous that people feel able to judge a chefs cooking based on one opinion. I think he has become the scapegoat for a lot of people just wanting to have a good old rant and rave.

Although I have not eaten in Juniper to date myself, I know many people who have eaten there and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I have also had the pleasure of meeting Chef Kitching when he came to dine in a restaurant I previously worked in.

He struck me as a man who is not afraid to say what he thinks and I feel ashamed of the slateing he has received from eGulleters as a result of this.

Many thanks to all those who have defended the reputation of a chef who is respected by a lot of people who know what they are talking about.

[maui420]

oh yess.....a nice fatty ribeye + bone cooked crispy burnt medium is the best!

Thanks for pointing me to another restaurant...to STAY AWAY FROM!

I love the honest, beefy taste of rib-eye. (And yep, I'm a flank and skirt fan as well. I wonder what he would do to those?!?)

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