Kitchen Knives: Preferences, Tips, General Care

[CharityCase]

Thank you all for the excellent links and recommendations.

I'm confused about my global 8" chef's knife. By description it is a straight edge and not beveled.

1. For home sharpening can a steel still be used daily or weekly to help retain the edge, or is that counter-productive with this knife?

2. The sharpening tutorial found here seems helpful: http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html

But I want to to make sure I follow the correct set of instructions as there's also this page (for "Single bevel edge" knives): http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen2.html

Thanks for your helping straighten (or bevel) this out for me.

Charity Case

[kelautz]

I'm 5'6", a retired cooking teacher w/ very small hands and carpal tunnel in my cutting hand. These are the knives I use.

8" Victorionox stamped chefs knife. I like the shape of the blade. I like that the blade is thin. If you have sharp, heavy isn't so necessary. For me, a light knife is easier to manipulate with accuracy. It hones up nice, and is easy to use. I also own a 10" but find I use it only for large watermelons.

14" F. Dick granton edge "turkey" slicer, blade is less than 1"wide, i.e. not the wide roast beef slicer. Very flexible. This knife gets used almost every day to make lunches. Slices cooked meats and tomatoes paper thin. Works good for lox.

14" serrated edge bread knife, unknown brand. I find the short serrated bread knives, 7 or 8", are too short for a large loaf of bread. My knife might be construed as a cake slicer, as the blade is quite flexible. I hone it with one of those pocket ceramic steels, laboriously, in the cup of each tooth. It is single bevel.

Paring knife. Obvious. But I also have an old Chicago Cutlery "Bio Curve" paring knife with about a 3 inch blade that gets a lot of use this time of year for hulling strawberries, and close work with the thumb.

Boning knife, 7", also stamped, house brand of a cookware store. I prefer the handle of the stamped style over the handles on a forged boning knife. Used for processing 3-packs of Costco chickens, boning and trimming the occasional leg of lamb, and biannually, trimming a beef tenderloin to within an inch of its life.

I prefer to store my knives in a drawer block, but have also used counter blocks and magnetic racks in the past.

I sharpen all my own knives (carefully) using an Edgecraft 120 three stage sharpening machine. I finish with the steel. I also use a Japanese water stone for my Japanese Aritsugu 12" (or so) single bevel yanagi-ba sushi knife. The edge is carbon steel, and unless you're willing to sharpen it on the stone before every use its too much trouble for me to use at home.

[rhrad]

Last year we ditched our cheap stainless knives for some Chroma Type 301's, and we've been absolutely thrilled with them ever since.

We bought the 7.25" santoku, the 6.25" Japanese vegetable knife, the 3.25" paring knife, and the 8.5" bread knife. Oh, and the matching Chroma Type 301 whetstone.

I tried out Globals also, but didn't care for the handle shape/size, and found them to be a bit too light for my tastes - I like a little weight to my knives. The Chroma's handle fits nicely in my palm, and feels nice and substantial.

After seven months of near-daily use, the santoku performs like it did on day-one...my wife & I still fight over who gets to slice the veggies for dinner.

Oh, also, their lifetime warranty is a nice thing to have...it covers everything except knicks on the cutting edge & broken tips. Our vegetable knife developed a crack on the blade, an inch from the "pearl"...I called Gail at Chroma USA (nice lady, by the way) and described the problem, and she traded me for a replacement, no questions asked.

[Jason Perlow]

I use the Wustof 10 Inch Wide Classic, which is normally a special order item unless you get it from Amazon or have a very good kitchen store near you that carries the entire Wusthof line. If you have large hands, its a very good knife with a heavy blade. Totally no-nonsense, battle worthy and restaurant kitchen quality chef's knife.

[spoon]

Ok, i know people have a LOT to say about knives. Everyone has an opinion, right or wrong, often based on a lot of hearsay of equally questionable validity. So, forgetting everything you've ever heard, read in a magazine, been told by a friend of a friend, or overheard in a bar... what do you REALLY value in a good knife? I know that I can pick up a rusty wood handled knife and have just as good a cutting experience as as with a hyper expensive japanese folded steel taper ground blade, assuming they meet my personal requirements for a good knife. I like my knives sharp (obviously), light, small handled with a hard grip, maneuverable and with fairly strong tapers toward the tip to allow detail work on a long blade.

so what makes it or breaks it for you? What's your favourite knife and why? And again, i'm not looking for quotes from magazines about Molybdinum-Vanadium alloys and sharpening angles... all hocus pocus aside please. (of course unless you work for CATRA).

[Ben Hong]

Your choice of knives largely depends on your cutting method and the foods you want to break down. For instance, you are a slicer and cutter you might want a whole slew of "western" style kitchen knives. However if you are a speed chopper in the main, like me, then you would want Chinese cleavers.

Chinese cleavers come in a variety of weights, thicknesses, widths and lengths. I have three different ones, for bone chopping, vegetable chopping and meat slicing. They meet about 95% of all my knife needs, from deboning chickens, to mincing meat, to chopping mushroom slices, slicing meats, deconstructing a quarter loin of beef and with a cleaver in each hand I can mince 8 oz of beef to make REAL chopped sirloin in about a minute...But I do have great use for an 8" chef's knife and a paring knife too.

Member Jo-Mel calls the Chinese cleaver the Chinese food processor. In the proper hands, it is the ultimate kitchen utensil...bone cracker, mincer, slicer, chopper, spatula, carver, hamburger maker, etc.

And, they are extremely cheap as the best and most expensive Chinese cleaver in Toronto's Chinatown costs about 20% what an average German brand knife does.

BTW, I have discovered a perverse truth in Chinese cleavers and that is price does not reflect utility.

[spoon]

ok, so for your needs, what distinguishes a good cleaver from a bad? You see two lying on a table, how would you choose?

[Chris Amirault]

I just merged the newest version of this regularly repeating thread into an old chestnut with lots of useful information. I'll also point you toward the excellent knife maintenance and sharpening eGCI course and the related Q&A from that course, both of which have excellent information about knife choices.

[Ben Hong]

ok, so for your needs, what distinguishes a good cleaver from a bad? You see two lying on a table, how would you choose?

←

Again, that depends on your needs. A bone chopper need heft (weight) and thickness. A slicer needs to be light, thin bladed and sharp and the blade doesn't have to be wider than 2.5-3". A general purpose slicer and light chopper should be about 3-4" wide, some good heft and sharp.

Characteristics to look for in any knife:

-good balance

-good edge retention

-easily sharpened

-enough heft to suit the purpose

-very comfortable and safe handles

I find that carbon steel is better than stainless steel in easiness of sharpening and edge retention. Look like hell, but they are effective. Oh, an absolute essential is a whetstone and a sharpening steel. If you want to have a good sharp edge, you should learn how to use both. I don't use electric sharpeners or other gadgets for sharpening my knives. Nor do I subject them to the dishwasher.

[SusanNS]

I have an 8 inch chef's knife made by Grohmann knives right here in Nova Scotia. It has a forged steel blade and a rosewood handle. The weight is nice and heavy and nicely balanced I can chop anything with it. Hmmm, I have a birthday coming up, maybe I should add a Grohmann knife to my wish list!

[spoon]

seems like the blade is the biggest thing for people... does anyone even look at the handle when they're shopping? I'd think it was at least as important for the overall impression a knife leaves with you.

[wattacetti]

seems like the blade is the biggest thing for people... does anyone even look at the handle when they're shopping?  I'd think it was at least as important for the overall impression a knife leaves with you.

←

I guess I do. I prefer the classic handles over the ergonomic ones of a Wustof Grand Prix or a Henckels FiveStar, and I could never make up my mind when playing with Globals. I definitely don't care for Sanelli handles; a bit too chunky.

For the Kershaw Shuns I'm using now, the offset D handle was one of the things that I was most interested in. I find the D handle very comfortable in my hand but I did notice that I wound up selecting different knives than what I first had in mind (10" chef instead of an 8", 8" deba instead of the 6") because the balance was different than anticipated.

[Octaveman]

seems like the blade is the biggest thing for people... does anyone even look at the handle when they're shopping?  I'd think it was at least as important for the overall impression a knife leaves with you.

←

The handle itself is important but only with regards to how it feels in your hand. Some handles have ergonomic bumps on the underside and some don't. Some handles have more rounded edges than others and conversly some are quite squared off. Some handles are also bigger than others and some handles taper from wide to narrow as you get toward the blade. If you grip the knife using the pinch grip then many of these handles characteristics are not as important but ergonomics of the handle does come into play. Bottom line is you've got to hold the knife and see how it feels. If you don't like the way it feels, you won't use it no matter how good the blade is.

I'm of the Japanese knife camp and a few of my knives have handle's where the fit and finish is not all that great. This is quickly is forgotten once I start using it. Sure it detracts somewhat from the overall aesthetics of the knife but you want a knife that performs more than you want a knife with a purdy handle. Blades IMHO are without a doubt the most important thing to consider in a knife with the handles ergonomics a close second. What the handle looks like is not as important. It's a special bonus to get a kick-ass blade and a handle with near perfect fit and finish.

Cheers,

Bob

[baconburner]

Todd

I found a combo Japanese waterstone at www.leevalley.com 1000/4000 grit. I am curious about the ceramic steel. What is your experience?

Thanks

Baconburner

[russ parsons]

i'd never argue with bob, who is a certified knife god, but i really have a hard time sorting those factors out and assigning them a weight. the blade is probably most important, since it does the cutting and has to be sharp. but thin or thick? carbon or stainless? french or german (or japanese imitating french)? balance is incredibly important and something i think most people don't pay enough attention to. a blade-heavy knife makes you feel like you're lifting weights all day. a handle-heavy knife makes you work too hard to do anything. the handle is probably the least important, at least until you find that one perfect one that is matched up with a great blade and great balance. when i was doing my piece on japanese knives, i found that pretty much all of them were extremely sharp and very well balanced. so given a virtual draw there, the handles became extremely important (also, the type of bolster).

Edited June 22, 2005 by russ parsons (log)

[Octaveman]

i'd never argue with bob, who is a certified knife god, but i really have a hard time sorting those factors out and assigning them a weight. the blade is probably most important, since it does the cutting and has to be sharp. but thin or thick? carbon or stainless? french or german (or japanese imitating french)? balance is incredibly important and something i think most people don't pay enough attention to. a blade-heavy knife makes you feel like you're lifting weights all day. a handle-heavy knife makes you work too hard to do anything. the handle is probably the least important, at least until you find that one perfect one that is matched up with a great blade and great balance. when i was doing my piece on japanese knives, i found that pretty much all of them were extremely sharp and very well balanced. so given a virtual draw there, the handles became extremely important (also, the type of bolster).

←

I agree 100% with all you wrote, Russ...except for the "god" part. I'm doing my internship for a knife god.

In my post, I was responding to what Spoon said about looking at the handle when they shop for a knife. I understood that to be do people choose a knife based on aesthetics. So I just talked about how the actual handle itself looks and feels in your hand. Balance was kept out of the picture because with just about all western style Japanese knives balance is where it should be. Balance is a factor in deciding between a traditional styled Gyuto versus a western styled Gyuto. Traditonal styled Gyuto's are extremely blade heavy so one has to make the decision regarding balance between similar Japanese knives. I guess I'm trying to say that balance relates more to the overall picture of a knife versus choosing a knife with a nice "looking" handle...but you are 100% correct about balance being very important when choosing a knife of any make.

If the handle doesn't fit or feel good in your hand, balance is irrelevant though. For example I have a Kikuichi Gyuto that has a great blade, great balance and flawless fit and finish. It's not in my knife block because the handle is squared off and I don't like the way it feels. An expensive knife not being used because I don't like the way the handle feels. Some day, I will sand down those edges to make it more comfortable but this is an example of something as simple as that can cause you to choose another knife. So from my experience the handle itself is pretty high up there.

Cheers,

Bob

[Mumin]

This seams to be the right pleace for a couple of questions.

I bought this big(27cm) Masahiro carbon steal chef`s knife.

It is really good in the blade, balance and handel.

But is there any good way to keep it from oxydaiting? Exept from the normal things you do, like clean and dry well and give the knife normal love.

My other question is. What is better to sharp the knife with? Stone, ceramic or iron?

I choose stone when I have the time and ceramic when i work in the restaurant and need it sharper fast!

About the blade, balance and handel I think they are equally important. The weight(light is bether) and the thicknes of the blade is really importante for me.

But in the end this doesn´t matter. The important thing is how the knife works for you. For example I have this really cheep spanish made Arcos japaneese chef´s Knife.

It isn`t impressive or any thing or even good but for me the knife is the best!

I have used it for 7 years in the kitchen almost every day.

But this is just what I think.

Is it possible to by Masahiro knifes in USA?

This is the brand of my choise! I think you get a lot for the money.

You chould try it!

Mumin!

[jayt90]

If it is carbon steel from Japan, it probably should only get stone treatment

[Octaveman]

But is there any good way to keep it from oxydaiting? Exept from the normal things you do, like clean and dry well and give the knife normal love.

What you're experiencing is normal and there's no way to stop it. This "Patina" is the reaction of the metal caused by acidity in the foods you cut. Washing and drying well keeps it from rusting. There are ways to remove this patina but it is a pain in the butt to do daily and really not worth the time. Someone once told me to leave the patina alone as it tells a story of where the knife has been and the meals it helped create. Kinda cool, I think.

My other question is. What is better to sharp the knife with? Stone, ceramic or iron?  I choose stone when I have the time and ceramic when i work in the restaurant and need it sharper fast!

Wetstone or sandstone is the ideal method for sharpening Japanese blades whether it's carbon or stainless steel because of the acute angles of the bevels. If your knife is sharp at the beginning of the day it usually only takes a quick touch-up on the stone to bring it back to life. Idealy, you should have at least a 1000 grit and a 5000 or 6000 grit stone. A combo stone would be the cheapest route. Touch ups would be made on the 5000 grit stone and if your knife is REALLY dull, use the 1000 grit. You could get a 220 or 320 to repair chips if needed. Norton and King are good brands.

Steeling your knife during the day is a good idea. Keep in mind that the purpose of steeling is to bring the edge back into alignment and not necessarily to sharpen it. I don't recommend any kind of ceramic or metal "sharpening" steel with grooves and the one I use is a smooth steel by Handamerican.com. If you have a sharpening steel use light (only the weight of the knife) pressure to minimize remove of metal by your steel.

Is it possible to by Masahiro knifes in USA?  This is the brand of my choise! I think you get a lot for the money.  You chould try it!

I'm sure there is but nobody that I know of has the selection and availability than Koki at Japanese Chef Knife.com. She is awesome with customer service and will bend over backwards to find or get whatever you want. I've purchased four knives from her with the most recent being delivered today as a matter of fact. My knife entered the EMS system on Tuesday and I got it today. Brands of knives I have are Hattori, Tojiro, Misono and want to get a Hiromoto and maybe a Ryusen. She can deliver a knife in less than a week from Japan for $7. Nobody can beat her prices and nobody can beat her shipping. Outstanding place to buy knives.

Cheers,

Bob

[afn33282]

Hey. This may be a little off-topic, but John at Knife Merchant will beat anybody's prices, and their catalog is pretty comprehensive and informative.

[blork]

My first "real" knife was a Henckels 8" chefs knife that I bought six or so years ago, for more than $100. At the time I had to decide between the classic design and the newer line with a molded handle and some special material bonded to the edge on one side so it never needs sharpening.

I decided to go with the newer model, which I now regret. Athough it is still decently sharp, it drives me nuts that I can't take a stone or a honer to it, because that will ruin the special stay-sharp edge. So I'm stuck with a knife that will always be an 8 out of 10 on he sharpness scale.

I've looked and looked, but I've never found any more information on that line. I'm wondering if I can just scrape off the material and end up with a regular classic knife, but there seems to be no information on it anywhere, not even directly from Henckels. Does anyone here know anything about that line?

A few months ago I gave up on it and bought a 6" Wustoff Santuko knife. It took a while to get used to its light weight, but now I really like it.

[jayt90]

I guess I'm not up on high tech knives. Sounds not much better than serrated!

[Octaveman]

My first "real" knife was a Henckels 8" chefs knife that I bought six or so years ago, for more than $100. At the time I had to decide between the classic design and the newer line with a molded handle and some special material bonded to the edge on one side so it never needs sharpening.

I decided to go with the newer model, which I now regret. Athough it is still decently sharp, it drives me nuts that I can't take a stone or a honer to it, because that will ruin the special stay-sharp edge. So I'm stuck with a knife that will always be an 8 out of 10 on he sharpness scale.

I've looked and looked, but I've never found any more information on that line. I'm wondering if I can just scrape off the material and end up with a regular classic knife, but there seems to be no information on it anywhere, not even directly from Henckels. Does anyone here know anything about that line?

A few months ago I gave up on it and bought a 6" Wustoff Santuko knife. It took a while to get used to its light weight, but now I really like it.

←

Uh yeah, never needs sharpening. Red flag right there. Doesn't Cutco say that? There is no metal used in cutlery that I'm aware of that never needs sharpening. Some lasts longer than others but they will eventually need to be sharpened. If it were me, I'd work the bastard on the stone and make as sharp as I could. Either that or sell it on ebay and buy a real knife.

Bob

[blork]

Indeed. I don't know what I was thinking. I guess I figured that since it was Henckels it was trustworthy, and I was high on technology at the time. A good example of a bad decision.

It's not the metal that makes it never need sharpening, it's the material bonded to one side of the edge. To look at it, it just looks like a regular chef's knife, but on one side it looks like somebody drew a 1/4-inch line along the edge with a grey magic marker.

I almost never use it but I won't bother getting another one for now. Between it and my new Wustoff Santuko knife, my trusty 25-year-old Grohmann chef's knife, the big cheapo 12-inch molybdenum killer I got at Ikea, a huge and heavy cleaver, low-level Henckels bread, carving, and boning knives, a high-end Henckels paring knife, and two old-fashined Opinel paring knives... there's no room left in the knife block!

[blork]

Oh, hey, I just found something on Epinions about those knives. It's the "Twinstar" line:

"Twin Star knives are Henckel's most expensive line because they are made with some sort of ceramic diamond-honed(?)coating on the blade that is supposed to maintain their sharpness forever (in fact you cannot sharpen these knives as it will ruin this coating and the blade). (Note: these are very different from Henckel's no-sharpening line of serrated knives.)"

Full review:

http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-review-45BF-1...BC-384C59B3-bd3

And here's a negative review:

http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-review-55D7-1...-39CAD242-prod6

No more Twinstars for me!