Fish and Chips an import?

[Carolyn Tillie]

Yep, according to This Article, they are Jewish and French, respectively...

[melkor]

So what does that leave in the way of good British food?

[Carolyn Tillie]

good British food?

Oxymoron!!!!

Okay, I confess... I actually LIKE British Food... When it is cold, there is nothing like Steak & Kidney Pie with a pint of Stout and I like a proper British High Tea.

[marlena spieler]

interestingly enough, i just gave a talk in which i discussed the fact that fish and chips were not originally british, and in fact put it in one of my books. My observations reached a slightly different conclusion however. Apparently, Portuguese Jews making their way from Holland where they had settled from the persecution of the expulsion brought the art of frying battered fish from Partugal where they had brought the art of frying the fish as a variation of the Japanese tempura (according to a Japanese food writer friend). Anyhow, when the fried fish reached the east end of london, and all of the sweat shops of what was then (and still is somewhat) a garment district, they added the potatoes. They found that the combination of fried fish and fried potatoes provided the needed calories to feed the hungry workers. And, being fish and potatoes, there wasn't kashrut to worry about.

does anyone out there realize that british jews fry their gefilte fish?

[marlena spieler]

ps: the east end was the jewish area.

ps ps: it was wrapped in paper (the original was newsprint) so that they didn't need to use a plate and could keep on working while they ate.

ps yet again: some people, my devoted eater of an uncle for instance, maintain that fish and chips without newsprint just doesn't taste the same!

[mags]

Hmmm...and what about the malt vinegar?

Actually, I had read that it was the Portugese who introduced batter-frying to the Japanese, in the 16th or 17th century. A Portugal --> Japan connection makes more sense to me than the Japan -->Portugal connection, because outside of tempura, Japanese cuisine tends so much to be water-based, rather than oil-based.

Edited January 11, 2004 by mags (log)

[John Whiting]

ps yet again: some people, my devoted eater of an uncle for instance, maintain that fish and chips without newsprint just doesn't taste the same!

And it has to be a tabloid newspaper! Times ink isn't acidic enough.

[balex]

I have a couple of times got fish and chips wrapped in paper printed to look like newspaper (but presumably in line with health and safety regulations). A nice touch.

[John Whiting]

In the early 60's the first fish and chip shop in San Francisco used to import old London tabloids to wrap them in. (They first wrapped them in wax paper; the newspaper was an outer wrapping.)

[fresco]

I have a couple of times got fish and chips wrapped in paper printed to look like newspaper (but presumably in line with health and safety regulations). A nice touch.

I've always understood that printer's ink contained some chemical that made it at least mildly antibacterial, which would make newsprint ideal for wrapping takeout food. Any chemists know for sure?

[Alex]

LONDON (Reuters) - The reputation of fish and chips as Britain's national dish has taken a battering after a historian said the classic meal originated elsewhere.

Panikos Panayi, history professor at Leicester's De Montfort University, said his studies had shown deep-fried battered fish and potatoes were a mixture of French "pommes frites" and fried fish dishes brought by Jewish immigrants.

Full story here

[MobyP]

I had heard the same thing about a year ago in a documentary on UK TV. Obviously the style of Jewish cooking differs substantively depending on the ghetto or region from where it came (Rome, Crakow etc), and I can't remember the specifics in this case. The first shop, I believe, was in the East End (as it would be) in the 19th C, but I believe they spread rather quickly as the style of it caught on.

[marlena spieler]

As I understand it and have written in my Jewish Heritage Cookbook, the portugese jews brought the art of batter/crumbling and drying fish to britain, and a japanese foodwriter informed me that the portugese had in fact got this technique from the japanese (the portugese were great explorers at this point).

portugese jews, sephardic having originated in spain most likely but coming from holland due to the expulsion, made their way back to england after jew-free centuries (basically since the York massacres), anyhow portuguese jews settled in the east end of london. there is still a little cemetary there where if anyone answers the door, you can visit. anyhow, they brought the technique of frying the fish.

then when the east end filled up with jews from eastern europe etc and the beginnings of the sweat shops, the fish were paired with the fried potatoes and though i've heard english say it just made sense to fry them, i'm sure the french pommes frites were in inspiration. i mean, i find them inspiring at all times!

fried fish and chips caught on because it was filling, calorie filled to fuel and warm workers who were cold and exhausted, and they were wrapped in paper--old newspaper being free-- so that the workers could take the meal back to their work and not stop. also, the fact that it is pareve, that is, neither meat nor dairy which cannot be combined in kashrut, had a big effect in winning its popularity.

from the east end jews to the rest of britain this dish's popularity spread.

and i don't know about anybody else, but is it only me, or are fish and chips just not right outside of the UK?

[marlena spieler]

i meant frying fish, not drying it. sorry........

[MobyP]

and i don't know about anybody else, but is it only me, or are fish and chips just not right outside of the UK?

Not right? They're positively illegal.

That was a great post, Marlene. I'm going to see about tracking down your book.

Off hand, do you know when the last 'authentically' Jewish East End chip shop survived until?

Was it quickly subsumed beneath the charicature that the chip shop became, or did it hold its ethnic origins - at least in the East End?

[Mrs Woman]

It explains some of the history here

I like to think it was us Northerners who thought it up first!

[Adam Balic]

and i don't know about anybody else, but is it only me, or are fish and chips just not right outside of the UK?

I can only speak of limited (Scottish) experience of fish and chips, but I prefer the Australian version, prehaps for very parochial reasons:

- Lack of choice, in Melbourne you would typically be offered a choice of 5-6 different types of fish, not just Haddock (I assume that haddock only, is a Northen thing?).

- Pre-cooked fish. I prefer the fish to be cooked in front on me, rather then sitting around for ages in a warmer.

- Soggy pre-cooked chips (see above).

[marlena spieler]

[Off hand, do you know when the last 'authentically' Jewish East End chip shop survived until?

having been an east ender for fifteen years (and for the past 3 a boring hampshirite) the answer is.......

i don't know.

the east end changed so much. when i got there it was still bombed out from the war. i used to joke that there were three jews left in the east end and that when my daughter and myself moved, the number was reduced by two. i don't think i was far off though the east end, at least parts of it, are quite trendy these days, so i'm sure there are new jews here and there.

my favourite place when i was there, and i miss it desperately, was the cypriot place near our warehouse flat in poplar. but truthfully ALL of the chips shops were good, fish and chips was pretty much all that anyone ate, that and the occasional kebab, pie, and mcdonalds. eels not as popular as once were........but that peas porridge pretty rank after its been simmering too long, and also the "likker" or parsley sauce for the meat pieces kinda icky. but the fish and chips: mmmmmmmmmmm.

i like my fish light and crisply battered, totally tender and sweet fish inside, and my chips big and fat and kinda limp from a quick wrap up in paper.

and okay, malt vinegar and salt is the only way to go. but here is a confession of a yuppie fish and chips condiment: and its deliicous.

I sprinkle my fish and chips with truffle vinegar and flaked maldon sea salt.

Please don't tell anyone, especially anyone from the north.

and does anyone out there agree with me? fish and chips are just not the same without a bit o' ink from the now outlawed newspaper? maybe thats the flavour the truffles in the truffle vinegar replace for me??

[marlena spieler]

ah, mrs woman, the fish and chips of the north are beautiful it is true, you are so right, though i might carry on and on and on about the east end being the fish n chip spirital if not material homeland......

its funny because there are places ooop north where fish and chips are the only good things to eat. too many places sadly. but they are soooooo good there. even when made ahead, and soggy, etc. and even when the malt vinegar is not real malt vinegar.

my husband worked in a caff in morecom (sp?) when he was student and waxes lyrical about the fish and chips of that area during his university days at lancaster. and when my daughter lived in liverpool, fish and chips were pretty much the only good thing to eat.

and i've found the fish and chips north of the border, up in scotland absolutely gorgeous, no doubt because the potatoes are divine, the fish excellent, and the oil just properly disgusting. and because the weather is cold, and because we are usually very very hungry.

as for me, tonight, i'm making hungkar begendi, the turkish mix of aubergine, bechamel and cheese.

i've got a fridge full of aubergines thanks to a big shop on ridley road market last week. nothing i like to do more than potter around in the kitchen with a buncha aubergines.