Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

[robyn]

While you're thinking about it - are there any things relating to the kids being in the kitchen that you might have overlooked?  Robyn

That's an excellent point, and one that I had not fully considered. But of course, they'll have total access to the sink and dishwasher, which is there appropriate spot!!

Let me consider the island option again, although I don't like islands' ventilation that much.

Assuming you don't wind up using the "L" with the little sink for something else - you might put in some counter space which is a little lower than the rest for the kids (I don't know how old they are - but if they're L'il Varmints - I suspect they're my size or smaller). Even when the kids grow up - a lower counter can be used for certain specialty things (I seem to recall that bakers like lower counters). Note that counter heights can be important for adults too. This is your family kitchen - so make it for you (unless you're 6'5" and your wife is 5'0" - in which case I'm staying out of that discussion ). Robyn

[robyn]

I'm not crazy about island cooktops either (sorry Robyn).  People tend to congregate around cooktops which can be both dangerous and constricting when you're trying to cook.  And if the kids are in the kitchen at all, the cooktop/island is a natural place for them to play tag around (yeah yeah, I know, it's not allowed ) and knock something over or get burned etc.  Which is why I didn't put my cooktop on my immense island.

Don't be sorry - I don't much like islands either (which is why my kitchen doesn't even have room for one). I am just trying to figuring out a good place to put a really big stove - and give the cook enough room around the stove so he has handy access to everything he needs - without knocking the whole house down .

Where would you put the stove? The "L" with the little sink looks promising - but I don't think you can stick a stove in front of a whole wall of windows (and now I've forgotten whether those windows exist now - or whether they'll be created in this project). If those windows don't exist yet - putting the cooking area there would get all the hot stuff out of harms way. Robyn

[Varmint]

The windows exist now. Plus, the ceiling is quite low over there -- about 7-1/2 feet. Ah, the quirks of this kitchen.

I've run the design by 2 architects and a kitchen designer with 30 years of experience. Looks like this plan is a "go."

Now, it's time to talk about features. I saw all the bells and whistles that cabinets have today, and with the possible exception of a lazy susan and a couple of pull out drawers, I don't see anything else that's imperative.

Ever since I started working at this firm, there have been a couple of huge granite slabs sitting out in the middle of the parking deck. I’m going to ask the building’s owner if he might consider my taking them off of his hands. Granite would be cool!!!

Under the cooktop, I’m contemplating having open shelves rather than cabinets. Just an idea at this stage. I’ll have some drawers to the left to put various implements.

[Marlene]

Pot drawers. They are great. Pull out spice racks. Pull out garbage? Lazy susan is a must for any corner type cabinet. Double tiered drawers, divided drawers. The possibilities are endless

[Nick]

Here is one way to save money when it comes to lighting.  Use a couple of "floating look"  fluorescent fixtures for now.  Maybe a rectangular one along the "galley" and a square one in the middle of the left hand area.  They are cheap -energy efficient - and will give you tons of light.  There are "warm bulbs" which emit a light color which won't make the kitchen look like a garage.  Robyn

Robyn - What are these fixtures? I still haven't done my kitchen lighting and am looking for energy effiency and good light. I have a small solar electric system and it would be nice to run the kitchen lighting from it if need be. (I can transfer load from grid to solar.)

Do you have any links to learn more - or a google term to search for?

Thanks

[Dave the Cook]

Robyn - What are these fixtures? I still haven't done my kitchen lighting and am looking for energy effiency and good light. I have a small solar electric system and it would be nice to run the kitchen lighting from it if need be. (I can transfer load from grid to solar.)

Do you have any links to learn more - or a google term to search for?

Thanks

Nick: usually what this means is that the base of the fixture (the part that attaches to the celing) is smaller than the diffuser, so the part that houses the lamp(s) appears to float off the ceiling.

Here's an example that shows the principle pretty clearly, since the base is black: click

[robyn]

The windows exist now. Plus, the ceiling is quite low over there -- about 7-1/2 feet. Ah, the quirks of this kitchen.

I've run the design by 2 architects and a kitchen designer with 30 years of experience. Looks like this plan is a "go."

Now, it's time to talk about features. I saw all the bells and whistles that cabinets have today, and with the possible exception of a lazy susan and a couple of pull out drawers, I don't see anything else that's imperative.

Ever since I started working at this firm, there have been a couple of huge granite slabs sitting out in the middle of the parking deck. I’m going to ask the building’s owner if he might consider my taking them off of his hands. Granite would be cool!!!

Under the cooktop, I’m contemplating having open shelves rather than cabinets. Just an idea at this stage. I’ll have some drawers to the left to put various implements.

With your budget - and your large pantry - I think you want as plain vanilla as possible. You don't even need a lazy susan (put large things in corner cabinets).

Do however try to get the following in cabinets if possible:

Upper cabinets which are full width - and where the shelves can easily be adjusted at lots of different heights.

As for lower cabinets - I am a big fan of the configuration with a utensil type drawer on top - 2 drawers underneath (preferably with full extension). Anything that is buried in a lower cabinet is almost worthless in my opinion.

Don't know if you want a pullout for garbage/recyling.

One of my favorite lower cabinets is a "cutting board cabinet" - with vertical dividers - where you can store cutting boards - baking sheets - muffin tins - etc. Items like this can be stored much more efficiently vertically than horizontally. Take all of yours out - stack 'em up - leave some room for dividers and "wiggle" room - and that's about how much space you need to start. Add a little - it's always more fun buying this stuff when you have somewhere to put it .

Think of other items you might want specialty storage for. We're not talking fancy hardware here - just different sized drawers. Like a drawer for placemats if you use them a lot.

What are you going to do with the granite?

I somehow thought that this was a big standalone stove - not a cooktop. If it's a cooktop - remember that there is stuff under the cooktop including the electrical line (or gas line? - I don't know anything about gas) - and you'll need something to conceal that stuff. Robyn

[Al_Dente]

That's an excellent point, and one that I had not fully considered. But of course, they'll have total access to the sink and dishwasher, which is there appropriate spot!!

You could get some shackles and chains anchored to a slab of concrete. Make the chains just long enough to go from the sink to the dishwasher.

[Dave the Cook]

You could get some shackles and chains anchored to a slab of concrete.

. . . or maybe this answers Robyn's question of what Varmint's going to do with the granite?

[Dave the Cook]

Here is one way to save money when it comes to lighting. Use a couple of "floating look" fluorescent fixtures for now. Maybe a rectangular one along the "galley" and a square one in the middle of the left hand area. They are cheap -energy efficient - and will give you tons of light. There are "warm bulbs" which emit a light color which won't make the kitchen look like a garage. Robyn

I agree with Robyn on this point, and not only for those on a budget. Fluorescents are often overlooked in the overall lighting package, I suppose because they have a connotation of cheapness. But with the latest bulbs, they can be extremely effective at general lighting (and task lighting, when used under cabinets) for a fraction of the installation and maintenance cost of incandescent or halogen, and when properly deployed, they can be almost invisible.

[Dave the Cook]

. . . remember that there is stuff under the cooktop including the electrical line (or gas line? - I don't know anything about gas) - and you'll need something to conceal that stuff. Robyn

Actually, this might easier with the open shelving Varmint's considering. Presumably, such a unit can be cheaply built by hand. It just needs to be somewhat shallower and shorter than the standard cabinets, with a false back and top to hide the hardware.

[robyn]

Here is one way to save money when it comes to lighting.  Use a couple of "floating look"  fluorescent fixtures for now.  Maybe a rectangular one along the "galley" and a square one in the middle of the left hand area.  They are cheap -energy efficient - and will give you tons of light.  There are "warm bulbs" which emit a light color which won't make the kitchen look like a garage.  Robyn

Robyn - What are these fixtures? I still haven't done my kitchen lighting and am looking for energy effiency and good light. I have a small solar electric system and it would be nice to run the kitchen lighting from it if need be. (I can transfer load from grid to solar.)

Do you have any links to learn more - or a google term to search for?

Thanks

Nick - Dave saved me the time of looking up a picture (thanks Dave).

My fixtures are Lightolier (which is now Genlyte). I don't know if they're the best - and they're certainly not the only manufacturer - but the Lightolier/Genlyte web site has a lot of technical information. See, for example, this description.

By the way - the reason I used these fixtures (in my kitchen/laundry room/closets etc.) doesn't have anything to do with money. I have absolutely terrible eyesight - including developing cataracts - and I just like to have enough light so my fingers don't wind up in the bowl when I'm chopping onions - or I don't walk out in blue pants when I meant to wear black. Robyn

[robyn]

That's an excellent point, and one that I had not fully considered.  But of course, they'll have total access to the sink and dishwasher, which is there appropriate spot!!    

You could get some shackles and chains anchored to a slab of concrete. Make the chains just long enough to go from the sink to the dishwasher.

He decided to go the fancy route - he's using granite instead of concrete . Robyn

I see Dave beat me to it on this one. By the way - is there any way here to just delete a message - not simply modify it (I've looked for one and can't find it).

Edited January 20, 2004 by robyn (log)

[Dave the Cook]

I'm thinking about lighting a little more. Varmint, what's your latest hunch on your prep area(s)? Will the main one be at the back windows, next to the main sink, or at the bar?

[Varmint]

I'm thinking about lighting a little more. Varmint, what's your latest hunch on your prep area(s)? Will the main one be at the back windows, next to the main sink, or at the bar?

There will be two areas where much of the prepwork is done. The prep sink by the windows is designed to be a dedicated prep area. That sink will have its own disposal.

The eating counter will act as a prep area when I'm doing simple things. But for big jobs, the eating counter and the long new counter will be considered secondary prep areas.

One thing about the lighting above the eating counter is that we'll likely build a wood housing around the structural I-beam that sits above the counter. We can put the wiring in this housing, from which we can add lighting. The bottom of the I beam is but a half inch above the cabinets in this picture, which should help you visualize:

[robyn]

. . . remember that there is stuff under the cooktop including the electrical line (or gas line? - I don't know anything about gas) - and you'll need something to conceal that stuff.  Robyn

Actually, this might easier with the open shelving Varmint's considering. Presumably, such a unit can be cheaply built by hand. It just needs to be somewhat shallower and shorter than the standard cabinets, with a false back and top to hide the hardware.

You may well be right. And if he tends to use the same X number of pots/pans all the time - it would be convenient too.

Whatever Varmint decides - I'd advise measure 5 times - cut once. And even then you can run into problems. I wanted to put all my knives in a knife drawer under the cooktop. Ordered a cooktop which gave me the necessary clearance below. When it arrived 6 months later - it was the next year's model - and my knife drawer wouldn't close. Wound up pulling out the cooktop and tracking down a "last year" model which fit. Luckily - the last year model was also a touch bigger - so I didn't have to ponder the question of how to make the hole in the counter smaller. Robyn

[fifi]

I like the idea of the open shelves below the cook top for often used pots. I am doing something similar under the island across from the range. I have seen this in a friend's kitchen and it is wonderful. That feature has had some of her friends ripping doors off of lower cabinets.

[Nick]

Robyn - What are these fixtures? I still haven't done my kitchen lighting and am looking for energy effiency and good light. I have a small solar electric system and it would be nice to run the kitchen lighting from it if need be. (I can transfer load from grid to solar.)

Do you have any links to learn more - or a google term to search for?

Thanks

Nick: usually what this means is that the base of the fixture (the part that attaches to the celing) is smaller than the diffuser, so the part that houses the lamp(s) appears to float off the ceiling.

Here's an example that shows the principle pretty clearly, since the base is black: click

Dave (and Robyn) - thanks for the info. Unfortunately it looks a little to commercial/surburban for my place. And huge! Right now I'm illuminating the kitchen space with one 24 watt compact flourescent in a clip lamp aimed toward the ceilng - flat white ceiling, as are the walls. Flat white really makes a difference in being able to light an area with only one or two lamps. I don't know if there's anything available like this, but if there were a fixture that reflected lamp light to the ceiling and would hold one or two compact flourescents it would light a lot of space. (If you don't gease up the ceiling. )

Well, I've gotta get out of here to go puke - listening to GW's state of the union. That dude has got to go!

[marie-louise]

Varmit, it sounds like you've settled on your final plan, but thought I'd post a couple of excerpts from what I think is the best kitchen design book ever published, Kitchens for Cooks by Deborah Krasner in case others find them helpful at some point. Alas, the book is out of print, but REALLY worth ordering from a used bookstore.

LINEAR COUNTER SPACE

She makes a point of saying these are minimums, and of course can be larger.

Wet You need at least 24 inches on one side of the sink (conveniently, this is the width of a dishwasher) for stacking dirty dishes, and at least 18 inches on the other side for draining dishes. (plus the width of the sink)

Dry For food preparation, a minimum of 3 feet is necesary for 1 person. Add an additional 2 feet for each cook working at the same time.

Hot Requires at least 30 to 36 inches on one side of the cooktop or range (for food preparation) and a minimum of 18 inches on the other (it could easily be another 30-36 inches) to allow for clearance of pot handles, parking of hot pots, and serving.

Cold A refrigerator requires about 18 inches of counter space next to the opening door (if it is a side by side model, allow this clearance on both sides) as a place to set food prior to loading or after unloading the refrigerator.

Traffic For one person in the kitchen allow at least 38 inches between parallel counters, or between a counter and an island, to provide enough working space. If this aisle also functions as a passage, allow 26 inches to allow another person space to walk through, making a grand total of 64 inches between counters.

The whole book is filled with information like this. A must read, IMO.

PS Maybe she could do a Q& A for us? As way of doing penance for posting quotes out of her book, heres' a link to her web site.

Edited January 21, 2004 by marie-louise (log)

[Rachel Perlow]

Do your kids ever use the microwave?  They won't be able to in this configuration.  My double ovens are 50" high - and they are 1 foot off the floor.  I am 5 feet tall - and I wouldn't be able to use a microwave that was above the ovens without a step stool.

I think the microwave could go either on top of or in a shelf built into the lower cabinets in either the L-prep area or the new counter created by moving the subzero.

Also, since I'm on the next page (100-posts per page view), I'm copying the latest floorplan here:

And, looking at that floorplan, I think a microwave shelf should go in the base cabinets between the sink and ice maker. That's right across from the fridge (easy access to leftovers), under the dishes (if you put them where I suggested upthread), and low enough for the kids to use.

Edited January 21, 2004 by Rachel Perlow (log)

[Nick]

I don't have a microwave, but if I did, I'd want it higher than down in the base cabinets.

[Rachel Perlow]

Now, it's time to talk about features. I saw all the bells and whistles that cabinets have today, and with the possible exception of a lazy susan and a couple of pull out drawers, I don't see anything else that's imperative.

Upthread I mentioned how the peninsula base cabinet will need to be finished on the end and back. But there are also cabinets that open from the front and back. One of my base corner cabinets opens with a hinged door from the "front" and regular cabinet doors on the "rear" which faces the dining room. I'm sure they make regular rectangular cabinets with front and rear entry. It's the countertop that has clipped corners, not the cabinet under it.

I like the idea of open shelving under the cooktop for several reasons. But the main one being that cabinets to the side of the cooktop cabinet will have to be so narrow as to be nearly useless (I have two narrow base cabinets on either side of my stove with pull-out shelving. I found uses for them, but it was not their intended use. One holds mugs and coffee & teapots, the other holds various sieves & strainers on one shelf and knife sharpening tools on the other).

It looks like you have about 14" on one side and less than that on the other, plus the angled corner. It would make a lot more sense, storage-wise, for this to be one big open area of shelving. Although someone else pointed out that the cooktop will invade the center area quite a bit. You'll have to look at the specs of your chosen cooktop to see how much space it will need below the surface.

Pot drawers seemed like a nice idea at the time, until several of my pots just didn't fit. Instead the pots & pans ended up in the base corner w/lazy susan (I need to put a light in there!) and one pot & pan drawer is used to hold all the various tupperware & other plastic storage devices (originally in the lazy susan area, but they are better contained by a drawer) and the other holds nesting steel bowls, colanders, salad spinner, and a few small frequently used appliances like my blender, mini-chop fp, and coffee/spice grinder.

[Rachel Perlow]

I don't have a microwave, but if I did, I'd want it higher than down in the base cabinets.

My favorite spot would be directly on a counter. I think it's the safest space for one. That's why I also said it could fit right on the countertop across from the fridge, right there in the corner on top of the wine fridge.

[marie-louise]

My microwave is in my pantry, at eye level, with a countertop-high shelf directly underneath. Handy for taking things out & setting them down.

[fifi]

Maybe you could use those narrow cabinets on either side of the cook top for vertical storage of sheet pans, cutting boards and such.