Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

[jackal10]

Where do you keep the glasses and the other drink things (and the red wine)

Maybe move the wine fridge and icemaker there, or to the pantry?

Maybe even move the main wash up sink and DW there?

If you have the luxury of two sinks, I'd rather keep the wash-up in a seperate area, that way you don't dump the dishes where you are preping the next course.

[Rachel Perlow]

The dishes and plates will go into a cabinet that sits above the dishwasher.

The dishes and plates need to go into a cabinet near the dishwasher, but not immediately over the dishwasher, IMO. With the dishwasher door open, it would be very hard to access anything above the bottom shelf of that cabinet. You would have to unload onto the counter, then close the dishwasher to put things away. They way I have it arranged in my kitchen is the dishwasher to the right of the sink and the dish cabinets to the left of the sink.

~~~

If you shorten the depth of the peninsula to the edge of the wall (sink side) then you'll get a few more inches standing room in the L shape "guest cook" area. This would also make the template much simpler, lessening the chance of error. Remember the base cabinet of the penninsula needs to be finished on three sides. Double check with the cabinet maker/contractor whether it is more cost effective to order it finished from the manufacturer or order veneer to finish onsite.

~~~

Since you have plenty of countertop opposite the fridge for putting down grocery bags, you don't need that little bit of countertop to its left. Instead, consider a bookcase. You could have it facing the doorway rather than the sink since you don't need a deep bookcase. It looks like that is about 14 -16 inches there, perfect for a bookcase.

~~~

The SubZero freezer doesn't make ice?

Edited January 19, 2004 by Rachel Perlow (log)

[Varmint]

The dishes and plates will go into a cabinet that sits above the dishwasher.

The dishes and plates need to go into a cabinet near the dishwasher, but not immediately over the dishwasher, IMO. With the dishwasher door open, it would be very hard to access anything above the bottom shelf of that cabinet. You would have to unload onto the counter, then close the dishwasher to put things away. They way I have it arranged in my kitchen is the dishwasher to the right of the sink and the dish cabinets to the left of the sink.

~~~

If you shorten the depth of the peninsula to the edge of the wall (sink side) then you'll get a few more inches standing room in the L shape "guest cook" area. This would also make the template much simpler, lessening the chance of error.

~~~

Since you have plenty of countertop opposite the fridge for putting down grocery bags, you don't need that little bit of countertop to its left. Instead, consider a bookcase. You could have it facing the doorway rather than the sink since you don't need a deep bookcase. It looks like that is about 14 -16 inches there, perfect for a bookcase.

~~~

The SubZero freezer doesn't make ice?

You're right about the dishwasher, Rachel. I'm trying to think of a configuration that makes sense, but it's not leaping out at me. One way to do it would be to slide the window down toward the utility room, and slide the sink and dishwasher a bit to keep the sink under the window. We don't want the window to be centered against that wall for a number of reasons. However, we could keep the primary dish cupboard at the end of the wall nearest the peninsula.

The bookshelf idea is fantastic. The only downside of that is the phone is there. I'm thinking of a bookshelf as well as a little phone/desk area to take messages. It'll be about 15" deep. Good idea.

Yeah, I could narrow the peninsula back again, but I sort of like the continuity with the wall. I need to think about that one.

As far as the SubZero is concerned, it's old. Very old. Thus, no icemaker. Our freestanding one will suffice.

[Varmint]

Where do you keep the glasses and the other drink things (and the red wine)

Maybe move the wine fridge and icemaker there, or to the pantry?

Maybe even move the main wash up sink and DW there?

If you have the luxury of two sinks, I'd rather keep the wash-up in a seperate area, that way you don't dump the dishes where you are preping the next course.

Wine is kept in the cellar, of course. We keep the wine that we drink quickly in the pantry. Having the ice maker and wine fridge in this location is perfect for us, as this counter will not be the primary prep area. The main prep area will be near the driveway, where we'll be installing a simple prep sink with its own disposal.

[Rachel Perlow]

The bookshelf idea is fantastic. The only downside of that is the phone is there. I'm thinking of a bookshelf as well as a little phone/desk area to take messages. It'll be about 15" deep. Good idea.

If you have tall bookcase there a hole can be cut through the wall side (at desk height) for the telephone jack plate (have an electrical outlet installed there too, if possible). Then you could use it for a cordless phone base.

I don't think you should bother with an actual desk configuration (i.e. actual countertop over base cabinet (or not) with bookcase above) because it is so shallow, and you won't be able to sit there because it is a doorway.

[Mayhaw Man]

Wine is kept in the cellar, of course.

As many readers know, I am rediculously proud of our little way of life here in SOuth Louisiana, but I have to admit that I get a little jolt of jealousy every time I see the word cellar. What a handy little room that must be.

If we tried to put in a cellar here it would quickly be a swimming pool. At 4 feet above sea level we hit water just trying to plant trees. Hell, we can't even bury our dead. We stick em in these cool little concrete houses that (believe it or not) are often used again and again. It is a very economical system (albeit odd and a little spooky).

Now back to the subject at hand-I have a second sink on our island. It is a small, shallow prep sink with a very tall gooseneck faucet on it. It has a He Man Model 5000 Food Disposer attached to it (not sure of brand, but it was the biggest one at Home Depot-something like a million horsepower ) and I do most of my chopping on a board right next to it. It is very handy and I do not make a mess traipsing around the kitchen with onion parts and trimmed meat looking for a place to dump it. I highly reccomend the extra sink with disposal.

[robyn]

As many readers know, I am rediculously proud of our little way of life here in SOuth Louisiana, but I have to admit that I get a little jolt of jealousy every time I see the word cellar. What a handy little room that must be.

If we tried to put in a cellar here it would quickly be a swimming pool. At 4 feet above sea level we hit water just trying to plant trees. Hell, we can't even bury our dead. We stick em in these cool little concrete houses that (believe it or not) are often used again and again. It is a very economical system (albeit odd and a little spooky).

Now back to the subject at hand-I have a second sink on our island. It is a small, shallow prep sink with a very tall gooseneck faucet on it. It has a He Man Model 5000 Food Disposer attached to it (not sure of brand, but it was the biggest one at Home Depot-something like a million horsepower ) and I do most of my chopping on a board right next to it. It is very handy and I do not make a mess traipsing around the kitchen with onion parts and trimmed meat looking for a place to dump it. I highly reccomend the extra sink with disposal.

Wanna play "our water level is higher than your water level" ? Robyn

[robyn]

I did say that moving the SubZeros was out of the question. But, of course, I never considered a move of 3 feet!!! To be honest with you, I was a bit blinded by their location and enormity and just didn't want to deal with it.

The next step is to meet with the contractor/cabinet maker again. I'm now talking about a shitload of cabinets, which I originally hadn't intended to do. I'm looking at about 33 linear feet of base cabinetry and about 5 linear feet of upper cabinets. How much is that gonna cost me???

The other thing I like about this design is that it makes complete sense when I close off the current doorway and put in a new one into the utility room. Unloading groceries becomes easier, traffic won't be flowing through the work area as much. It's so much better!!!!

OK - so what else that's non-negotiable is really negotiable ?

When I look at this plan - I see a kitchen table in the kitchen. Doesn't have to be huge. Just a place for the kids to sit down and shell peas while Mom and Dad are making dinner. The whole idea concept in contemporary kitchen design these days is drawing people *into* the kitchen - giving them a place a stand/sit and be a part of what's going on.

Get those cabinets priced out first at a place like Home Depot/Lowe's. I really think it's worth it to do the job as a whole (but not - as someone suggested - at the expense of your kid's college fund). And - if you have budget restraints that prevent you from doing the whole job - I'd work from the bottom up (it is much easier to add upper cabinets 2 years down the road than to add a new floor).

Also - and I know this will be touchy - consider allocating some of your appliance budget to the other items. I know that guys are into the biggest/baddest stoves - the biggest baddest knives - whatever. Guy things (particularly if the guys aren't metrosexuals ). But there is something wonderful about a place where you and your family spend a lot of time looking nice too. Robyn

[marie-louise]

The stove placement troubles me-that sharp corner, the fact that it's a logical loitering place, yet has only a 30-inch passageway, and the fact that there's just not much room on the either side of the stove. To me, that is always going to look make-shift. That wall should have shallow shelving on it-or nothing. Maybe the bookcase should go there? Or a hanging pot rack or wall system (think Julia's kitchen w/ all her copper pots.) Or a built in seat for people to hang out in the kitchen with you?

Since we are revisiting things that were off the table, what about getting rid of that closet and putting your cooktop in the spot where the oven and closet are? Maybe even have it continuous w/ the bar area and open to the LR/DR? It wouldn't be too hard to slip a big wooden beam in there and open the area up. that is sort of what you have right now-just improve it.

Save money on having less cabinets. Maximize the use of your pantry.

[Rachel Perlow]

OK everyone, chant with me: GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

Seriously. Also, since the wall ovens are something that actually don't usually require that much attention while stuff is cooking, why is it smack dab in the middle of the room? Imagine standing there, basting something (i.e. the door open), while the lil' varmints try to get by you for some reason. Disaster waiting to happen. Move the wall oven to the guest cook L, right behind that little wall.

If possible, get the wall ovens with the doors that swing out to the side, rather than down like a shelf. You'd have counter on both sides (the peninsula and the rest of the L) to put hot things down on, and standing in that U, no one is at risk of bumping their heads or touching hot things if they walk by.

Then, expecially if you get rid of the closet (although that can wait till next upgrade with this design) you'd have a great expanse of countertop, adjacent to the kids' bar for the cooktop.

Am I brilliant or is someone going to fault my logic?

[Varmint]

To get rid of the closet really requires some structural changes, as a load bearing wall separates the closet and the ovens. A steel "I"-beam runs down the length of the eating counter, which then ties into another "I"-beam just beyond the end of the eating counter. Consequently, we can't really get rid of the closet at this time (that, and the issue of not having another closet available).

What's nice about this arrangement is that it still works in the master plan. When we close off the door near the driveway and put in a new door in the utility room, we'll likely move some external walls as well, making the room much more of a standard rectangle rather than the goal posts of its current configuration. We'll then be able to move out eating bars, closets and other items. That bar will be removed, moved, or pared back at some point in the future. Just not right now.

As far as the cooktop is concerned, that location has worked for years, in spite of its cramped nature. Thirty inches is a lot more than the current 20!!!

I'm sure we're already maxed out on the budget. There are a lot of things I'd like to do, but this is something that is reasonably affordable. I got a quick estimate for midlevel cabinets from one source: about $4500 without countertops. We'll be going with tile countertops for the most part, adding another chunk of expense. I'm staying with the "he-man" appliances -- actually, the only appliances that are considered "professional level" will be the cooktop and the hood. I'm not sacrificing performance on either of those items. We're keeping our dishwasher and microwave. But our spec list is quite extensive -- a lot of labor will be involved. I'll post the new spec list later.

In the end, with the configuration of our space and the traffic flow, it ain't gonna get much better than this. I'm liking what I see here. It will work. It'll open up the kitchen, allowing more people to be in it comfortably. It allows more people to work in the kitchen. Plus, it will be brighter.

Now, can someone help me out with replacement lighting?

[Varmint]

OK everyone, chant with me: GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

GET RID OF THE CLOSET

Seriously. Also, since the wall ovens are something that actually don't usually require that much attention while stuff is cooking, why is it smack dab in the middle of the room? Imagine standing there, basting something (i.e. the door open), while the lil' varmints try to get by you for some reason. Disaster waiting to happen. Move the wall oven to the guest cook L, right behind that little wall.

If possible, get the wall ovens with the doors that swing out to the side, rather than down like a shelf. You'd have counter on both sides (the peninsula and the rest of the L) to put hot things down on, and standing in that U, no one is at risk of bumping their heads or touching hot things if they walk by.

Then, expecially if you get rid of the closet (although that can wait till next upgrade with this design) you'd have a great expanse of countertop, adjacent to the kids' bar for the cooktop.

Am I brilliant or is someone going to fault my logic?

I discussed the closet above. As far as the guest cook L, please recognize that those counters are surrounded by big sheets of glass just above the counter level. They're beautiful windows that will not be touched. That's why the ovens can't go there.

As far as the closet is concerned, I'm with ya, but it ain't gonna happen yet. Patience, Miss Rachel, patience.

[Nick]

Hang in there, Varmint. I think it's looking good.

[Varmint]

KITCHEN RENOVATION SPECS – JANUARY 19 2004

1. DEMOLITION

• Remove all existing cabinets except those comprising the eating counter.

o Cooktop

o Compactor (will keep to sell)

o Grill

o Wall ovens

o Bar Sink + plumbing

o Kitchen sink + plumbing

 Keep existing disposal for new prep sink

• Cut off end of cabinet next to wall ovens to make flush with wall and to give more room

2. PLUMBING AND GAS, ELECTRICITY, HVAC

• Run gas line to cooktop location

• Run plumbing for 2 new sink locations

• Run plumbing for dishwasher

• Drainage for new ice maker location

3. ELECTRICAL

• Wiring for cooktop and hood

• Add required outlets near both sinks

• Move circuit breaker and switches to opposite side of wall.

• Add wiring for new disposals in both sinks

• Add new disposal switches for both sinks

• Add electrical outlets near cooktop (if necessary)

• Electrical for new Subzero locations

• Electrical for new wine fridge location

• Electrical for new ice maker location

• Check wiring for new wall ovens

• Replace lighting where appropriate

• Prepare wiring around I-beam for lighting

• Phone line??

4. HVAC

• Close off ductwork from current grill location

• Close off ductwork from current cooktop downdraft location.

• Reconfigure ductwork near window

• Reconfigure ductwork under current sink cabinet

5. CABINETS AND CARPENTRY

• Create new wall oven space

o Double ovens are 50 inches high

o Put microwave above wall ovens

o Put new cupboard below lower oven

• Reconfigure cabinets above wall ovens

• Build and Install 15 linear feet of 24” base cabinet to house sink, dishwasher, icemaker and wine fridge.

o Sink cut out

• Build and install approximately 7 linear feet of upper 12” cabinet over long counter

o Build around windows

• Build and install “L” shaped 24” base cabinet near window

o Sink cut out

o Small marble slab to sit on

• Move SubZeros

• Build and install base cabinets for cooktop (5 linear feet)

• Build and install housing around I-beams

• Prepare surface to install tile countertops.

• Prepare

• Replacement pulls on eating counter cabinets.

• Build and install bookshelf/phone area at end of SubZeros

• Need to determine cabinet configuration (drawers, lazy susans, etc.)

6. INSTALLATION

• Cut and install ductwork for hood

• Install stainless backsplash

• Install hood

• Install cooktop

• Install wall ovens

• Install microwave

• Install dishwasher

• Install sinks and disposals

• Install lighting (Homeowner to replace track lighting)

7. FOLLOW-UP (Homeowner to do)

• Paint cabinets

• Floor configuration

• Replace Sub-Zero panels

[Rachel Perlow]

Wait, there's a window above the word "driveway" (in the latest picture) or to the left of the word "window"? If above "driveway" but not next to "window" (I assume that window is the one above the main sink), then the ovens can go into that nook.

Next drawing you color in, make the windows blue or something.

[Varmint]

Next drawing you color in, make the windows blue or something.

As you wish:

Windows are in blue. Note that the two corners of these windows are not framed: the glass has been fused together creating a great, relatively unfettered view. And the windows start at a height of approximately 40" off the floor and go almost to the ceiling. It's a lot of glass!

[Rachel Perlow]

OK, makes sense now. Too bad because having the ovens in the middle of the traffic pattern makes me nervous. One of my main dislikes of my pre-renovation kitchen was having the range opposite a peninsula end in between the the kitchen and dining room. Bad place to be bumping butts.

[Varmint]

QUOTE from Robyn in Granite v. Marble Thread

In Varmint's thread about his kitchen renovation - he wants sexy appliances - but is willing to live with an undone floor and repainted cabinets. That wouldn't be my personal choice - but it's his kitchen and his money.

I don't want "sexy" appliances, Robyn. I want high performing appliances. Ones that kick out the heat and suck out the smoke.

My two objectives of this remodeling are function and space. Everything else is secondary. Looks will come later.

[Marlene]

The only thing I'm not crazy about is the location of the cooktop. This config doesn't make for an ideal work triangle. Without having to read through this whole thread what's IM and WR?

[Rachel Perlow]

Ice Maker

Wine Refrigerator

[Marlene]

Ah. Thanks Rachel. I assume, these are under the counter? Could they be switched with the cooktop then?

[Varmint]

As strange as it might look, the cooktop location is quite good. It's a spot where I can interact with guests, there's enough room for 2 to cook simultaneously, and it's only two steps away from the prep sink.

The location of the wine fridge and ice maker (yes, both under the counter) is down a long hallway. We don't want the cooktop there for two reasons: (1) It's pretty isolated the further you head down that way; (2) Once we swap out doors from the present location to the laundry room (in the next 2 years or so), traffic flow through that hallway will increase dramatically.

[Marlene]

Just askin is all By the way, have you had your electrical panel checked yet?

[fifi]

In that category, are there any issues with the size of the gas line?

[forever_young_ca]

This is looking vvvvvvvvvvery good. I just looked back at the original plan - what an improvement. I can see why you couldn't take it anymore.

Good luck on the remainder of the planning/work.