Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

fifi · January 18, 2004

I am with you on the tile, Varmint. Yes, granite, Silestone and their ilk are wonderful. But I just CAN'T spend that kind of money. When I saw how many thousands of dollars that would be for my kitchen I just about fainted. I have had tile and I have had laminate (Formica) and I was happy with both of them. The somewhat retro look fits the design as well. I am considering a granite inlay in the island for the rare occasion it would be handy. (I don't bake much.) If I hit the lottery or something, I won't have that much invested in it should I want to change it. That is pretty unlikely.

Mayhaw Man · January 18, 2004

Actually, while it is pretty easy to scratch and you have to be little careful of it, there are some really cool formica products out there these days. And given the cost as compared to marble or man made stone, it looks even better.

All your formica needs

Varmint · January 18, 2004

I am with you on the tile, Varmint. Yes, granite, Silestone and their ilk are wonderful. But I just CAN'T spend that kind of money. When I saw how many thousands of dollars that would be for my kitchen I just about fainted. I have had tile and I have had laminate (Formica) and I was happy with both of them. The somewhat retro look fits the design as well. I am considering a granite inlay in the island for the rare occasion it would be handy. (I don't bake much.) If I hit the lottery or something, I won't have that much invested in it should I want to change it. That is pretty unlikely.

That's the major point, here, fifi. This renovation is all about moving things around to make them functional. This kitchen will not look all that nice when it's done: cheap painted cabinets, patchwork floor. But the appliances will rock, the layout will be great (or substantially better than the status quo), and it will be consistent with some long term plans. I won't need to swap out appliances. I will need to redo floors. I can change the cabinets if I ever want to. With the exception of the hardware, the current cabinets have never really been a problem. Funny thing -- when I envisioned my "dream" kitchen, the thought of cabinets and countertops never came into play. It's all about space and funtion.

Let the fun begin!!!!

fifi · January 18, 2004

Thanks for the link, Brooks. I am about at the point for nailing down these kinds of details. I guess I am a pretty careful cook. I have never damaged a laminate countertop. But then, I always use a cutting board (out of concern for the health of my knives) and I always plan for a place to put that hot pan. Growing up, my mother's kitchen had those little porcelain "drugstore" tiles on what little counter space she had. Then I lived with my sister for a time and she had the typical 4x4 tile countertops. We liked the fact that they had the "bullnose" tiles at the edge so that our frequent spill disasters did not drip all the way down the cabinets to the floor. We even sloshed elderberry juice all over the place making jelly from one of our foraging forays and it cleaned up fine with a little bleach. The balance of my 45 plus years of cooking have been living with laminate... quite happily, thank you. For looks, my favorite was this slate looking stuff in this cool little house I built in Metairie LA. My sister has the same thing in the bar area of her early 60s vintage house. It reminds me of that really cool little kitchen.

Rachel Perlow · January 18, 2004

If the garbage pull out is going to be to the left of the main sink, have you considered putting a hole (with lid) in the countertop for easy throwing away access (like they do on a lot of cooking shows)? I'm thinking that way the latest prep sink addition would have access to the garbage as well.

**Dave the Cook** · January 18, 2004

Looking really good, Varmint. I have two more suggestions for the layout. The first is to swap the sink and the dishwasher. The second is to push the closet out into the living/dining area.

The sink/dishwasher swap isn't so much for utility as for the ability to add a window over the sink for the pleasure of the dishwasher. If I'm remembering the structure incorrectly, however, a window may not be possible, in which case, forget it. But you've got a pleasant view in that direction, and that can ease the dreariness of the task.

Pushing the closet out, although it might be a PITA, will give you a perfect spot for stacking dishes and other tableware right out of the dishwasher, ready for deployment to bar or dining room. It also makes a nice art nook on the living room side, not that that's a concern in this project.

In any case, I'd resist the temptation to put the dishwasher under the ovens. This would sacrifice a very efficient arrangement for the sake of one cabinet. I'm certain you'd be sorry for having made this trade. Remember that you'll have new storage areas surrounding the prep sink. I don't think you're losing any usable cabinet space with this plan compared to your present arrangement.

**Dave the Cook** · January 18, 2004

As far as countertops go, I think you've got a great opportunity. If you carefully mix and match materials, you can maximize your budget, meet utility goals, and also create a lively aesthetic.

Varmint · January 18, 2004

As much as I like the idea of a window, I don't think that we want the sink so close to the wall to the left. Although it may be possible -- I just don't know.

The closet's not going to be touched this time around. I see it being eliminated altogether at some point in the future, but if we're going to move it, we might as well take it out and put a little counter area there. But not this time.

Varmint · January 18, 2004

Here's a suggestion that may make no sense whatsoever, but here goes:

I made the peninsula more of a box to maximize cabinet/drawer space. I slid down the sink so half of it extends into the peninsula. This creates some openness. It also allows there to be more wall for upper cabinets. With the sink moved down, I widened the peninsula a bit to allow for some space beyond the sink. Consequently, the space between the window and the peninsula is a bit smaller, but still workable space for an individual.

Moving the sink to this location may not make a bit of sense, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

Varmint · January 18, 2004

If the garbage pull out is going to be to the left of the main sink, have you considered putting a hole (with lid) in the countertop for easy throwing away access (like they do on a lot of cooking shows)? I'm thinking that way the latest prep sink addition would have access to the garbage as well.

We'll have a disposal, so that probably won't be necessary. If we composted, that would be a different issue altogether.

jackal10 · January 18, 2004

where;s the storage?

Traditionally you need to minimise the triangle between stove, sink and fridge.

I find it useful to have a small fridge near at hand, and a large larder one elsewhere- mine is in the laundry room.

Where do you store dishes and plates when you take them out of the dishwasher?

Have you considered having two dishwashers - load into one and take from the other.

Also I would shunt the sink and dishwasher down a bit. You have just taken a hot pan off the stove, or out of the oven. Where are you going to put it down? You need workspace within easy reach.

Varmint · January 18, 2004

Storage? First, we have a huge pantry that isn't really shown here -- it's through the doorway on the bottom left.

The refrigerator will always be far away, but I can live with that.

The dishes and plates will go into a cabinet that sits above the dishwasher.

No, we're not going with two dishwashers. I love it when 2 exist, but we can't do that at this time.

The end of the peninsula and the eating bar are two places to put hot stuff.

Everything in this plan is within easy reach. It's a very user-friendly set up -- much more so than the current arrangement, I can assure you of that. Plus, this makes it much easier for more people to cook in the kitchen at the same time, which, although not currently impossible, makes for a very "friendly" and "intimate" environment.

fifi · January 18, 2004

makes for a very "friendly" and "intimate" environment.

In my family we call this "bumpin' butts". :laugh:

robyn · January 18, 2004

That's the major point, here, fifi. This renovation is all about moving things around to make them functional. This kitchen will not look all that nice when it's done: cheap painted cabinets, patchwork floor. But the appliances will rock, the layout will be great (or substantially better than the status quo), and it will be consistent with some long term plans. I won't need to swap out appliances. I will need to redo floors. I can change the cabinets if I ever want to. With the exception of the hardware, the current cabinets have never really been a problem. Funny thing -- when I envisioned my "dream" kitchen, the thought of cabinets and countertops never came into play. It's all about space and funtion.
Let the fun begin!!!!

There are costs associated with installing appliances - moving stuff around - hiring contractors - pulling permits - etc. So far you're still on paper. Why don't you go to a place like Home Depot or Lowe's - and have them work up some proposals on cabinets and flooring? Don't think they charge anything for it. Worst you can do is review the options and say "no". Robyn

Varmint · January 18, 2004

That's the major point, here, fifi. This renovation is all about moving things around to make them functional. This kitchen will not look all that nice when it's done: cheap painted cabinets, patchwork floor. But the appliances will rock, the layout will be great (or substantially better than the status quo), and it will be consistent with some long term plans. I won't need to swap out appliances. I will need to redo floors. I can change the cabinets if I ever want to. With the exception of the hardware, the current cabinets have never really been a problem. Funny thing -- when I envisioned my "dream" kitchen, the thought of cabinets and countertops never came into play. It's all about space and funtion.
Let the fun begin!!!!
There are costs associated with installing appliances - moving stuff around - hiring contractors - pulling permits - etc. So far you're still on paper. Why don't you go to a place like Home Depot or Lowe's - and have them work up some proposals on cabinets and flooring? Don't think they charge anything for it. Worst you can do is review the options and say "no". Robyn

Funny you brought this up, Robyn, as I spent a couple of hours at Home Depot yesterday! Everything is still in the paper stage, but I'm starting to get a better idea of the costs. We've got some good ideas, and everyone's participation here has been invaluable. I'm going to run this by my interior designer sister-in-law, my architect father-in-law, and my cook mother-in-law in half an hour to get their take on it all. Yeah, my father-in-law created this monstrosity 30 years ago, but he did learn from his mistakes!

**Dave the Cook** · January 19, 2004

Here's a suggestion that may make no sense whatsoever, but here goes:
I made the peninsula more of a box to maximize cabinet/drawer space. I slid down the sink so half of it extends into the peninsula. This creates some openness. It also allows there to be more wall for upper cabinets. With the sink moved down, I widened the peninsula a bit to allow for some space beyond the sink. Consequently, the space between the window and the peninsula is a bit smaller, but still workable space for an individual.
Moving the sink to this location may not make a bit of sense, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

I'd put the sink back where you had it. I think it's going to feel wrong to be standing at the sink and have your forward plane of vision divided like that. Also, although it appears that you still have close to two feet of open peninsula at the range end of the sink, I think you're going to want that as both prep area and hot zone, so I'd be happier with the previous larger space.

I do kind of like the additional few inches of depth, though.

A detail, but just in case you haven't thought about it: you've squared off the end of the peninsula, which is fine, conceptually. In reality, you want to make sure these corners are rounded to avoid sharp gut-checks as you turn that corner, and of course to protect the Li'l Varmints' heads and shoulders.

So what did the in-laws say?

Nick · January 19, 2004

I'd put the sink back where you had it. I think it's going to feel wrong to be standing at the sink and have your forward plane of vision divided like that. Also, although it appears that you still have close to two feet of open peninsula at the range end of the sink, I think you're going to want that as both prep area and hot zone, so I'd be happier with the previous larger space.
I do kind of like the additional few inches of depth, though.
A detail, but just in case you haven't thought about it: you've squared off the end of the peninsula, which is fine, conceptually. In reality, you want to make sure these corners are rounded to avoid sharp gut-checks as you turn that corner, and of course to protect the Li'l Varmints' heads and shoulders.

I was looking at that last night and thinking the same thing - both about the space at the range end of the sink (good place to put hot pans and pots if tiled) and the need to round the corners of the end of that counter. Better to lose a few square inches of space than to, as Dave says , snag a gut on it or have one of the little ones heads run up against a sharp corner.

Varmint · January 19, 2004

Tee hee hee. I have the plan. The master plan. I just finished with the kitchen designer/architect, and he praised "me" for "my" design. I informed him how this was a collaborative project. He had one suggestion that made complete sense and makes this project a "go." I'm so excited with this that I put all countertop space in red. Take a look:

DW = Dishwasher

WR = Wine Refrigerator

IM = Ice maker

By moving the SubZeros to the opposite wall (which will cost nothing), we now have a long area of counter space plus a way to create a window. The window goes into the residing project, not the kitchen's. :wink: We have tons of wall space for upper cabinets, room for a larger sink (i.e., integrated drainage area), and more!!! I also took off a corner from the bar area to make that passage area 30 inches. People want to stand in that area, so this makes sense.

God, I love this design, and I'm sure someone can still tweak it a bit, but this is a winner as far as I'm concerned. I'm a "bit" concerned about the budget, but we can go with shelving instead of cabinets in some instances. Why not?

Comments?

**Dave the Cook** · January 19, 2004

My bad; I've been wanting to move the SubZeros for days, but I thought you said that wasn't in the cards.

This looks great, Varmint. I think you're going to be really happy with it, and it should serve you well for a long time.

What's the next step?

Nick · January 19, 2004

Man, that's looking good! Swapping walls with the sub-zeros makes a real difference. How come "we" didn't think of that? :biggrin: And a window for the sink - you gotta have a window for the sink. Good goin'!

Oops, turns out Dave did. :smile:

Edited January 19, 2004 by Nick (log)

Varmint · January 19, 2004

My bad; I've been wanting to move the SubZeros for days, but I thought you said that wasn't in the cards.
This looks great, Varmint. I think you're going to be really happy with it, and it should serve you well for a long time.
What's the next step?

I did say that moving the SubZeros was out of the question. But, of course, I never considered a move of 3 feet!!! To be honest with you, I was a bit blinded by their location and enormity and just didn't want to deal with it.

The next step is to meet with the contractor/cabinet maker again. I'm now talking about a shitload of cabinets, which I originally hadn't intended to do. I'm looking at about 33 linear feet of base cabinetry and about 5 linear feet of upper cabinets. How much is that gonna cost me??? :wink:

The other thing I like about this design is that it makes complete sense when I close off the current doorway and put in a new one into the utility room. Unloading groceries becomes easier, traffic won't be flowing through the work area as much. It's so much better!!!!

forever_young_ca · January 19, 2004

Is there any way the wall can come down in between the peninsula DW and the L shape counter to open up that space?

forever_young_ca · January 19, 2004

Oops, just realized you probably want/need that wall to put upper cabinets on.

The amount of counter space in wonderful indeed. In my experience, you can never have too much counter space! It always gets used for large events :biggrin:

**Dave the Cook** · January 19, 2004

Oops, just realized you probably want/need that wall to put upper cabinets on.
The amount of counter space in wonderful indeed. In my experience, you can never have too much counter space! It always gets used for large events

Somewhere upthread, Varmint said that there was a breaker box in that wall, and it's load-bearing, as well. While you could solve both those problems, I imagine it's an expense that doesn't fit the budget.

And you're right about counter space.

forever_young_ca · January 19, 2004

Somewhere upthread, Varmint said that there was a breaker box in that wall, and it's load-bearing, as well.

Oops, must have missed that. I am enjoying this thread - it lets me live vicariously as I would love to redo my kitchen! :smile:

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