The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[Ninjai Fanatic]

I think there should be a stronger push to teach people- chefs/pro cooks or just any other person who cooks, about the food safety rules. I've been cooking almost all of my short life, and yet I never really knew about the extreme dangers of not preparing or keeping food corretly until recently when I joined a seminar on HACCP and bread making.

[Pam R]

I suppose i've wasted enough time on here with what I didn't want to talk about.

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I don't think I get what you want to talk about. Sorry. Wanna try again?

[bavila]

there was nothing that the Chile's worker could have done to prevent it's spread anyhow, the virus was (claimed to be) in the onions from Mexico. 

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I'm pretty sure this was Chi-chi's, not Chili's, and they were green onions, so not pre-sliced, and never cooked (served as garnish or in salsa), therefore the higher likelihood of disease spreading.

While a home cook might have more leeway (I say "might" because homecooks still serve immuno-compromised individuals -- pregnant women, infants, elderly, etc. -- all of whom might have had dire consequences from whatever bug got NulloModo), anyone in the restaurant industry should have safety as their top priority because getting customers sick means losing business -- more than just the person who got sick.

As an anecdote, in my (Tulane U) alumni magazine a few months ago, there was an article on alums who were in the food biz. Most had businesses in New Orleans, and every single one of them, when asked what their biggest fear was, was getting someone sick. Yay them.

[Pam R]

(...)  and they were green onions, so not pre-sliced, and never cooked (served as garnish or in salsa), therefore the higher likelihood of disease spreading.

Exactly. This is why I stopped using green onions in my restaurant for over a month - until my supplier brought in some green onions from elsewhere. Chances are I could have used the case of green onions I had in the walk-in with no problems, but I didn't want to take that chance.

...Most had businesses in New Orleans, and every single one of them, when asked what their biggest fear was, was getting someone sick.  Yay them.

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I'll second that.

[anzu]

anyone in the restaurant industry should have safety as their top priority because getting customers sick means losing business -- more than just the person who got sick.

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Absolutely!

I mentioned earlier that I was living in Osaka at the time of the E. coli 0157 outbreak there.

There was quite a long period between the outbreak starting, and it being discovered where it originated. On top of that, once it got started, it spread relatively easily from person to person.

During this period, people stopped eating out whenever they could help it. The worst-hit area was southern Osaka - where the outbreak started. A huge number of restaurants in that area went bankrupt, and the ones in other parts of Osaka weren't doing too well either.

On top of that, people were avoiding all types of food in the supermarkets that they thought might be the origin of the problem - meat sales went way down, so did most fresh vegetables, and so on.

I don't know what the final number was of bankruptcies actually was - when you're just getting your information from ongoing reports in the media at the time that information tends to be fairly unreliable - but I think the whole effect was considerable. Not just restaurants, but for farmers as well, and for the people who are making a living from dealing with food at any point between production and consumption.

[coquus]

I guess it's just my thinking that foodbourne illness is not going to kill me or anyone in my restaurant, because I taste, practise fifo, and make small enough quantities where I turn them over. I'm personally worried about carcinogens, metal oxides, or hormonal imbalances, etc. It's probably mistaken thinking because, as you point out, there are still source issues with my food. I would still like to think those green onions were pre-sliced. How did so many of them get exposed to hepatitis, which I would suppose had to come from the dirt of the farm then, i.e animal waste? And how does the hepatitis survive rinsing, is it inside the onion, or living off of it? I'm glad that your college alumni are worried about getting people sick bavila, and I hope they take a proactive role in preventing this. I totally agree with Ninjai too, lots of things can be tought, and lots of things need teaching to get across. That blacklight trick was pretty cool, right? The right path should be made the easier.

What I would like is for the right path to be more clear first, that's why I started this topic and thanks for your contributions so far. I was hoping to draw more of a broad map of where we are. I guess that is why I originally posted this to the comments section, I wanted to separate the discussions to keep them focused. I do see where you all are taking it, and it's my fault for wanting to go everywhere at once I suppose.

Ok, enough with the whining, I'm really interested in what Anzu has to say. Does anyone want to quantify the effects of each type of food bourne illness? I'll share what I beleive. I think that Hepatitis C basically cuts your lifespan by ten years or twenty by messing up the liver which is normally the most regenerative organ in the body. The one time I got sick from food was questionable sushi, the little corner place decided to start selling peices on an all you can eat buffet, I puked my brains out a while later. And it wasn't from eating too much, everyone else I was there with puked too. I personally haven't known anybody to get it worse than that? The e-coli thing that happened in Maryland a few years back was scary, and even though lots of Marylanders are scary raw ground beef eating freaks, I still ate my burgers well for a while though because permanent kidney damage is a horrible thing. I don't even eat burgers out anymore because of bovine spongiform encephalitis, which is so freaky very few people even understand that it cannot be killed by cooking with temperatures even remotely used for cooking food. And it basically infects your brain and eats it until you go crazy and die, albeit 15 years down the road. Then there is salmonella, which has mutated to an antibiotic resistant strain, that gives people the flu for about a week, and is found in greatest numbers under the skin of chicken, but also in most reptiles and amphibians as well. There is probably some truth in this somewhere, but like I said at the outset it's what I believe, now you are free to shoot at it.

Edited July 12, 2005 by coquus (log)

[Really Nice!]

I guess it's just my thinking that foodbourne illness is not going to kill me or anyone in my restaurant, because I taste, practise fifo, and make small enough quantities where I turn them over.

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OUCH! If there's ever a statement for not eating at an establishment, that is it!

[JohnL]

If one were to apply a "worst case" scenario prior to embarking upon any activity one would live in abject fear.

This includes walking, running, exercise,drinking anything,eating anything,leaving the house, not leaving the house...........

That's what phobias are all about!

There is risk in everything--including living! Let alone enjoying life to any degree at all.

In order to function (and to enjoy life at all) one must be prudent and practical. We make decisions based upon rational consideration and we ponder the odds and we move on.

For eg--yes--one can get BSE from eating a hamburger (cooked or uncooked) yet odds are wildly in favor of one not getting BSE or anything else so one would rationally determine that the pleasure of eating a hamburger "outweighs" the risk and that person will (the odds are great) enjoy life (and ground beef) and be happy and well adjusted.

(or they might eat the burger and be the one in eight billion --I am sure the oodds are even higher--who drops dead)

or

they may chose to not eat the burger andmiss out on one of life's pleasures.

I guess it all comes down to:

"Do the math and proceed".

[coquus]

they may chose to not eat the burger andmiss out on one of life's pleasures.

I guess it all comes down to:

"Do the math and proceed".

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The problem with that statement is that the math isn't known. Do I think that eating Kobe/Grass finished beef is safe, yes, I'll eat that for burgers, or grind my own. And Seattle, please clarify.

[coquus]

My girl was getting upset at me for my spending time on here with my imaginary friends, and not with her so I feel I was unable to address this, so now I'll take a stab at it. For natural reasons, most of us humans eat to live and don't live to eat. We are able to detect a spectrum of flavors so as to differentiate nutrients instead of poison, i.e. live. Unfortunately, a certain poison (Martian?) has found us out and has infiltrated our food supply. And due to the carnivorous nature of our race, can and probably will cycle with us forever. Sure we (U.S. Gov't now, not human beings) have done things, but unfortunately I see it as too little too late, we should have been doing at least the level of testing we are before the first mad cow, banned the import of dead cows from europe, etc. Now the deer are infected too. It's not that we didn't know about it though there is much we don't, it's just pure laziness/red tape/free market worship that allowed this. While I know this, as a cook I do still eat the industrial ground beef when I taste for seasoning at work, and if i'm at parties, you know, i'm poor and a good ole boy so i'll eat it, etc. I just see a lack of understanding that reaches alot of levels about this disease and it's scary. I mean someone on here, eGullet, a virtual oasis from the ignorance, told me that there was no need to worry, the (second case) cow was a downer, and also not intended for human consumption, so there is still no danger. What? I didn't say to them, but am saying it now, what? That a second cow has had BSE long enough to be a downer means that it's in our food, I think the first was also a downer too? It's here and i'm not convinced that it will leave us, ever. I don't get worked up about having to eat beef however irrational, I still consider it more important that my meatloaf is seasoned properly. Now JohnL, I was thinking more about your post a bit more and realize now it may have been as a response to some others' posts on here so I was wrong to attack it initially and am all for the second part of that quote, Proceed.

[coquus]

I guess it's just my thinking that foodbourne illness is not going to kill me or anyone in my restaurant, because I taste, practise fifo, and make small enough quantities where I turn them over.

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OUCH! If there's ever a statement for not eating at an establishment, that is it!

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Do I know you?

I know there are factors beyond my control, but that's life, and I beleive I said so after that segment you took out of context. And that's not all that I do, it's the tip of the iceberg. I'm talking about doing more, and am interested in what you're doing if you ever cook and would like to share what you do to make you're food safe.

[coquus]

Copied from my response to Tony's GMO stance and subsequent discussion to the Bourdain, Between Meals, A Talk With Tony, by Rachel Perlow thread

The only beef I have is the genetic engineering neutrality statement. I mean have you tasted fresh truffles, boleti, morels, etc., do you think they taste bad? Mother nature doesn't deserve to be messed with, and that is what the definition of genetic engineering is, messing with Mother's natural encoding. Have you heard of Chaos theory, and the layman's way of explaining it by the Butterfly Effect? You know, the butterfly flaps it's wings over in Vietnam and that small wind variation is the root cause of storms two weeks later in New York. You don't screw your mom, that's called incest, and if that's not a sin, it should be.

Coquus, the way I read it, Tony is keeping an open mind to GM foods, waiting for evidence for one side or the other to rear its head and possibly end the debate. He hasn't endorsed it.

Admittedly I don't know much about genetically modified foods, but I also don't believe that the point of GM'ing is to change the taste of the food (your comment re: tasting truffles etc), but rather to increase the yield of crops.

Given my limited knowledge on the subject, I couldn't comment on whether it is ultimately good or bad - however, in the hypothetical scenario where crop yield increases with no detrimental biological, environmental etc side-effects (and before dumping a load on me, I understand that we do not and cannot understand the long-term effects yet)... why would this be bad?

Without hijacking this thread let me respond. I get worked up over food politics as it is clear from my food safety thread, so I'll try to restrain myself, but I think by remaining neutral he is endorsing it. It's true that GM foods are being marketed to us now as high yeild and no risk, that they don't spread is the claim of the GM food industry. The taste issue is a result of our loss of native species which would be adversely affected by the GMO, in two ways, the natural way: by the chance of cross breeding with similar natural species and the competition which occurs between plant species. And the corporate way: as has happened in India, S/E Asia, etc. with rice growers no longer being able to sell their rice which has been naturally bred to yeild high, and taste great because whomever corporation has a patent on it. I'm glad you and Tony are still on the fence BC in BC, but it would be really nice to have you on my side of the fence.

[kelautz]

"How about food safety?" is just too broad a topic, IMO. Would it help to differentiate between several aspects of food safety?

1.) Food safety as we cook at home.

2.) Food safety when eating out.

3.) GMOs and meta-food supply issues.

Of course, these three will overlap in places. For one thing, I find myself compelled to cook at home far more often and eat out far less often, because of contamination issues in restaurants. (I'm HACCP certified.) Salad bars? No thanks! And high-end restaurants can be just as problematic as budget restaurants, I'll betcha.

I tend not to eat burgers out. I like them med-rare, and nobody will cook them that way any more. I make my own. I'll buy large packages of ground beef, but not pre-formed patties. Perhaps this is straining at gnats. There's a nice clean little ethnic meat market across the street from where I work, and he grinds beef to order, right where I can see what goes in the hopper. This is good.

Reluctantly, I have given up making brown stock. Another nearby ethnic market sells beef neck bones for $.79/lb, and will bandsaw them per request. Ten pounds of these made a great home size batch of brown stock, but because of BSE, I'm holding off. They say avoid the neural pathway. No more oxtails, either, *sob*.

The principle I use to grocery shop, my way of "doing the math", is that whenever there is a choice, I purchase the less processed ingredient over the more processed one. I never buy pre-cut vegetables, peeled garlic, much less chopped garlic, etc. Same thing applies to meats. Give me the bigger cuts, whole chickens, and I'll cut them up myself. Its the bulk processing of these items which provides a lot of opportunity for contamination.

On the other hand, GMO is something I can't worry about on a daily basis, mostly because it would take far too much work and energy to be sure nothing consumed in the house was GMO.

Good sanitation practices for the home and commercial cook are well known, easy to implement and the payoff is unquestioned. Beyond that, there are individual choices to be made on many other issues: raw meats, raw fish, raw eggs to name a few. I would hate to see disagreements about levels of prudence in these matters turn into personal insults on this forum.

Food supply politics? GMO? Uh, they're depressing topics, worthy of discussion, but not by me, not today.

[coquus]

As a cook, I like to see people who are concerned about what they eat. I'm happy you take initiative in this. I think there should be more like you. I still make and consume beef stock, how could I go through life without it? I'm pretty sure some of those little devils could find there way in through there, oh well. I do use a bit of pork, and a smaller bit of chicken if it's around, at home though. I'm not really worried about the harm that GMO foods will do to my body, but what they will do to the biodiversity.

You have touched on my major issue however, I would really like to see a separation of topics for safety or as some of you call it, politcs. And again, that is why I originally posted this in the questions and comments section of this forum. Do you think that this is a topic that's worth discussion on this website (I've seen it written here that some people think that it would be nice to avoid such talk). I for one think that it's more uncomfortable to me if left unsaid, and just look around you in your area you live in, it's a major issue with lots of people. I'll take a cue from my man thomasrodgers, in the Sausage Making thread, and suggest that you please email the administration.

Edited July 21, 2005 by coquus (log)

[Ken]

Unfortunately later that day I developed a nasty bout of food poisoning.  I couldn't help but connect it to the meal at Willi's, though at the time nothing I ate was off.  Somehow I have been unable to return. 

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The good news is that you probably didn't get sick from Willi's. The overwhelming majority of food poisoning cases are infections that take 24 to 72 hours to develop before you feel the syptoms. What you remember is of course the last thing you ate, but it's rarely the culprit.

Great thread, I'm looking forward to Paris in March too.

[therese]

The good news is that you probably didn't get sick from Willi's. The overwhelming majority of food poisoning cases are infections that take 24 to 72 hours to develop before you feel the syptoms. What you remember is of course the last thing you ate, but it's rarely the culprit.

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Although it's true that one typically associates food poisoning with the last thing that one ate before its onset, and that it was typically an earlier meal that's the real culprit, the time between consumption and onset of symptoms is typically much shorter, on the order of 6-8 hours. There's no actual "infection" in these cases---illness is the result of your consuming toxins produced by the bacteria (typically staphylococcus) before you ate it, generally because the food was kept neither sufficiently hot nor sufficiently cold (after having been inadvertently inoculated with the bacteria during preparation). The rapidity of symptom onset and the degree of discomfort are somewhat dose-related: the more toxin built up in the food the quicker and worse the symptoms.

So depending on the timing of VivreManger's symptoms relative to his meal at Willi's, that meal may well have been the culprit.

One of the worst bouts of food poisoning I've ever experienced was in Paris, the result of a meal in a Basque restaurant. Fortunately my husband ate different food, and was able to take care of me.

[Ken]

The good news is that you probably didn't get sick from Willi's. The overwhelming majority of food poisoning cases are infections that take 24 to 72 hours to develop before you feel the syptoms. What you remember is of course the last thing you ate, but it's rarely the culprit.

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Although it's true that one typically associates food poisoning with the last thing that one ate before its onset, and that it was typically an earlier meal that's the real culprit, the time between consumption and onset of symptoms is typically much shorter, on the order of 6-8 hours. There's no actual "infection" in these cases---illness is the result of your consuming toxins produced by the bacteria (typically staphylococcus) before you ate it, generally because the food was kept neither sufficiently hot nor sufficiently cold (after having been inadvertently inoculated with the bacteria during preparation). The rapidity of symptom onset and the degree of discomfort are somewhat dose-related: the more toxin built up in the food the quicker and worse the symptoms.

So depending on the timing of VivreManger's symptoms relative to his meal at Willi's, that meal may well have been the culprit.

One of the worst bouts of food poisoning I've ever experienced was in Paris, the result of a meal in a Basque restaurant. Fortunately my husband ate different food, and was able to take care of me.

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Sorry, the occurence of symptoms within 6- 8 hours is not typical. Too much of what people believe to be true about food poisoning is simply not supported by facts.

May I refer you the link below for an excellent and meticulously researched article last year (10/26/05) about restaurants and food poisoning in the San Francisco Chronicle by Janet Fletcher.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...y&sn=010&sc=189

I'll be at Willis later this month and am quite sure it will be safe and delicious as always.

[John Talbott]

I have long held that one should never get between a gastroenterologist and an ID specialist; dangerous ground there.

So folks, as informative as this interchange was, how do we settle what is not a theoretical issue. We all get GI stuff at one time or another, when travelling and eating. And, I have a hunch both of you are using the CDC for your side's argument. What are the rest of us poor slobs to believe if the experts disagree?

[Ken]

I have long held that one should never get between a gastroenterologist and an ID specialist; dangerous ground there.

So folks, as informative as this interchange was, how do we settle what is not a theoretical issue.  We all get GI stuff at one time or another, when travelling and eating.  And, I have a hunch both of you are using the CDC for your side's argument.  What are the rest of us poor slobs to believe if the experts disagree?

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Sorry to get off thread. One should always be very very careful about accusing a restaurant of food poisoning, it's just too hard to prove and very unfair to the establishment.

That being said, great thread, thanks to all for contributing, especially John Talbott for his many great links. I can't wait to get back to Paris later this month and will share any good finds.

[Werdna]

this isn't really a food safety observation, but it seemed to fit with the thoughts regarding not eliminating all bugs so that our systems could build up a natural immunity - my theory is that we should all eat a bit of fast food several times a year so that if we are ever kidnapped, our body systems won't rebel at the food we are forced to eat by our kidnappers!

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Close, it's not that we build up a natural immunity, it's that we build up bugs that dont bother us and they out-compete the bad bugs.

The chicken producers have seen the research done on various Lactobacillus and Bifedobacterium strains on this and are using it.

http://www.bioinfo.com/fbdnewusda.html

but it is not generally known by the public. The benefical bacteria (found in fermented products, very notably unpasturized Kim Che and yogurt) are what allow some people to do just fine in an environment that would give others a case of food poisoning, and being overly sanitary (and ingested antibiotics) are a good way of stripping your digestive system of its defenses.

[FistFullaRoux]

There's a couple of other bug hiding places that few people think of. The knobs/buttons on the stove, and pot handles.

At least the pot handles get washed every so often.

But for the most part, "what does not kill you makes you stronger."

[therese]

Sorry, the occurence of symptoms within 6- 8 hours is not typical. 

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But it's also not atypical. Depending on the etiology, onset can be rapid, and particularly rapid if there's a lot of pre-formed toxin in the food item.

There's basically no way to know in this instance.

[therese]

There's a couple of other bug hiding places that few people think of. The knobs/buttons on the stove, and pot handles.

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You don't scrub down all the surfaces of the stove, including the buttons and knobs?

[phatj]

My only food poisoning experience was pretty clearly food poisoning, and also pretty clearly the restaurant's fault: about 6-8 folks in my extended family ate from the same Canadian Bacon & Pineapple Pizza (consumed within minutes of delivery, mind you), and each of them was sick within about 12 hours. Several others who were around that day did not eat the pizza, and did not get sick.

I have a tangential question: I have a persistent problem with a mildewy smell in my kitchen, particularly on sponges and rags, despite pretty thorough cleanings, with stuff like 409 and chlorine bleach. I don't think mildew is a particular food poisoning hazard, but it's unpleasant. Any suggestions?

[FistFullaRoux]

There's a couple of other bug hiding places that few people think of. The knobs/buttons on the stove, and pot handles.

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You don't scrub down all the surfaces of the stove, including the buttons and knobs?

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I do, now. Before the wife's health problems, they only got cleaned when visibly dirty. Then we had to look at what could be potential causes of infection. Those two came up as ones we hadn't thought of. Also the kitchen phone, as well as cookbooks. Although the cookbooks work well in a gallon ziplock bag now.

And I almost forgot the bottle of dishwashing detergent. The outside of it can get pretty bad, if you think about it.