Restaurant complaint in California

[elyse]

woodburner, who said anything about a spectacle?

[woodburner]

woodburner, who said anything about a spectacle?

How do you politely, refuse to pay?

woodburner

[elyse]

Tell them your food was inedible. They won't make you pay, I'm sure. THEY certainly don't want a spectacle. Bad for business.

[jschyun]

You could dispute the charge on the card, but since you got the meal and chose to pay for it, you probably wouldn't get any help from the credit card company.

I loved visiting Canada, especially Vancouver, and I am sorry to hear that you had a bad experience here in So Cal. When you're a nice guy and you have your wife with you, also tired, it's a hard call. Make a fuss or not?

Here's the problem with being a nice Canadian guy in America. You get a bad meal and you start looking at what you've done wrong. Hmm, that lamb was just $22 so maybe that's why they're treating me like dog dirt. Hmm, maybe I looked like a weary vagabond.

Dude, you're not in Canada anymore. Paying more doesn't guarantee anything. Why, you can get crap meals here for $100 without trying! And in So Cal, esp. near the beach, nobody notices how you look, unless you're naked.

You know in your heart, those things have nothing to do with your bad experience. That restaurant sucked hard. You should have more confidence in yourself, or is it a Canadian thing to be so humble?

Since you've already paid, and the management has made clear they'll do nothing about your bad experience, I think the best thing you can do is let it go, but make sure that everyone knows about it.

Everyone.

[woodburner]

Tell them your food was inedible. They won't make you pay, I'm sure. THEY certainly don't want a spectacle. Bad for business.

I think I'll try that approach, next time I have a bad meal.

Thanks for the heads up.

Great to hear, that they won't care, and just let you walk out.

woodburner

[elyse]

Glad to be of service.

Edited December 4, 2003 by elyse (log)

[woodburner]

You could dispute the charge on the card, but since you got the meal and chose to pay for it, you probably wouldn't get any help from the credit card company.

I have had problems with products, and services after payment by credit card. My company has always sided with me, until the problem was resolved.

woodburner

[Chef Fowke]

Tell them your food was inedible.  They won't make you pay, I'm sure.  THEY certainly don't want a spectacle.  Bad for business.

I told the server that the food was inedible...I still got a bill. I was on vacation and my wife wanted to leave (we had a great walk along the beach). It was only $22, is that worth ruining your night or vacation?

[Chef Fowke]

You could dispute the charge on the card, but since you got the meal and chose to pay for it, you probably wouldn't get any help from the credit card company.

I loved visiting Canada, especially Vancouver, and I am sorry to hear that you had a bad experience here in So Cal.  When you're a nice guy and you have your wife with you, also tired, it's a hard call.  Make a fuss or not? 

Here's the problem with being a nice Canadian guy in America.  You get a bad meal and you start looking at what you've done wrong.  Hmm, that lamb was just $22 so maybe that's why they're treating me like dog dirt.  Hmm, maybe I looked like a weary vagabond. 

Dude, you're not in Canada anymore.  Paying more doesn't guarantee anything.  Why, you can get crap meals here for $100 without trying! And in So Cal, esp. near the beach, nobody notices how you look, unless you're naked. 

You know in your heart, those things have nothing to do with your bad experience.  That restaurant sucked hard.  You should have more confidence in yourself, or is it a Canadian thing to be so humble?

Since you've already paid, and the management has made clear they'll do nothing about your bad experience, I think the best thing you can do is let it go, but make sure that everyone knows about it. 

Everyone.

But more importantly then just embarrassing the restaurant, let everyone in the food industry who posts on this board know what happened so they can avoid it in the future at there own establishment. If you where the manager and you got a letter from an executive chef about a sub-standard dinner how would you have responded?

We have all had complaints in our restaurants, and often we have thought ‘damn customer doesn’t know what he/she is talking about’ or ‘just looking for a free meal’. Unfortunately that customer might have a genuine complaint that is a real problem that runs deep through your entire organization….

This post is not to embarrass the restaurant, I have had many meals in Europe, USA, Britain, etc that have not been up to my expectation (one of them at a three star Michelin); all have been dealt with on the spot and I left happy In 99% of the cases the problem was dealt with immediately and reinforced my belief in the excellence of the restaurant. Never was ‘not charging me for a meal’ necessary. Correcting the food, an apology from the manager or a visit from the chef recognizing the problem always was enough.

This was unique. I informed the restaurant of a problem, they did nothing and my wife told me to relax because the meal was only $22. That is the issue. Should you expect more from a restaurant then the prices on the menu?

[porkpa]

Chef,

An item that's on a menu should not be inedible, regardless of its price. The price of $22 is not that cheap anyway. Translated into your currency it comes out to about $27 - not overly expensive, but not cheap by anybody's standards.

The next time you are in California skip Burger King and try In N Out. You'll see why cheap and poor quality are not necessarily synonomous.

Porkpa

PS-I wonder if management at Sparks is aware of this thread. Perhaps they should be directed here. Maybe the can learn from their errors.

[elyse]

Tell them your food was inedible.  They won't make you pay, I'm sure.  THEY certainly don't want a spectacle.  Bad for business.

I told the server that the food was inedible...I still got a bill. I was on vacation and my wife wanted to leave (we had a great walk along the beach). It was only $22, is that worth ruining your night or vacation?

That comment was meant for woodburner, as I has already told you I would have probably done the same etc. etc..

But the waiter was not the one to speak to to get the problem resolved. And you clearly weren't in for a free meal as you had only eaten 10% of each dish.

[Hest88]

I think you handled it correctly with one exception. You *could* have asked for the manager and pointed out that your meal was inedible. However, I doubt I would have taken that extra step under the same circumstances, either. The letter was the right way to go. Unfortunately, there's only so much one can do if the recipient refuses to handled the situation adequately. The amount of bad publicity Sparks is now getting is equal to many times what your meal was worth!

And to reiterate. $22 is NOT cheap. If you got rotten, inedible beluga caviar for $50 an oz would you consider it a good bargain? The restaurant is clearly and completely in the wrong.

[jschyun]

Hmm, I didn't really intend to say that you should embarrass the restaurant but to encourage what you've already been doing, which is to talk about it. I just said it in what I thought was a humorous way, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Here, you are resolving the issue (in a fashion) by letting others know about these issues. Heck, maybe someone here can actually do something about it.

Basically, it doesn't sound like there really was anything else you could have done at the restaurant. If the total meal was $22, and it was vacation time, I would have done the same thing. If the management isn't interested in consumer feedback, that's really not something you can control, except by not visiting.

Edited December 4, 2003 by jschyun (log)

[merle]

I've been in similar positions in the past. It's easier just to pay the bill and complain later... especially in places where bad service caused the problem (and it was part of the problem in this case; had they checked you could have complained in time).

Had a similar problem once at Chevy's (in Alameda), where our fajitas came out but no tortillas arrived. By the time we managed to flag anyone down, everything was cold. The meat wasn't trimmed well, either This was after waiting 20mins+ for our drinks to arrive. It shouldn't take two hours to try (and fail) to eat at a chain restaurant. For the $21.83 bill (or so) we left $22, figuring the whopping $0.17 tip would indicate to the waitress that she was incompetent.

Similar service problem at a local joint (Connie's Cantina in Oakland). After waiting half an hour for the bill, went up to the register (and waited another five minutes). She rang it up as $22, I gave her $40, and got... $8 in change. I complained, and so she rang it up again -- this time getting $27. Fine. I'm frustrated and getting a headache, and I figured it was worth the $5 just to get the heck out of there. (I left no tip, figuring the $5 counted towards the tip) At home I checked the menu I had taken, and even the $22 was high -- should have been $18!

So I wrote up a scathing review on chowhounds, and frequently tell people to stay away from the place. Hey, even now I'm reaping the benefits by being able to whine and moan about the event a year later! Of course, in that case I had enjoyed the food, so there was no excuse for not paying -- my grievances are with the service and the casual 40% price hike at the register.

Does this help improve the restaurant? Probably not. But as Chef Fowke (OP) indicated, he contacted them and got a pretty pathetic reply. I would minimally have expected a gift certificate to help promote going back (which probably wouldn't cost them a thing, as he would doubtless choose never to return).

But does posting about it help? Certainly! Helps other people to know not to come back, and it feels good, too...

[jschyun]

You could dispute the charge on the card, but since you got the meal and chose to pay for it, you probably wouldn't get any help from the credit card company.

I have had problems with products, and services after payment by credit card. My company has always sided with me, until the problem was resolved.

woodburner

I was surprised to find out that credit card companies do more than just take your money. I was always told "buyer beware", but this isn't necessarily the case. I know with platinum cards, you are afforded some protection, but apparently Fowke's case can go his way via the credit card company.

I called my credit card company and the dispute resolution person there told me that to dispute charges, first you have to send in written documentation about what happened, and any other documentation that you can find, like the bill and Fowke's letter to the management, their reply.

Then what they do is charge the restaurant back and see if they dispute it. If the restaurant decides to dispute the chargeback (is this a word?), then they wrangle for a bit. If they can't resolve it, then the dispute goes to Visa. If it gets to Visa, then there are substantial charges involved, and if you lose, you pay more (I didn't get all her jargon, but I understood that losing the dispute meant paying charges). Over a $22 meal, she said they wouldn't even send it to Visa if the dispute could not be resolved by the credit card company.

She said that in the situation I outlined (basically C. Fowke's experience), the chances are about 50-50 that the dispute will go his way. She said that his case would have been stronger had he walked out on the bill. Also, she asked how much of the meal was eaten and when (before or after the complaint). His case is stronger because he didn't eat after the complaint. He didn't eat right?

The lady talked fast so I hope I got everything.

Crap, i just rememberd that i forgot to tell her, he only talked to the waitress not the manager.

--edit

Just remembered that she said they get about 300 calls a day (I use a small credit union's credit card) about this very thing. She said to send in your documentation and see what happens.

--end edit

Edited December 4, 2003 by jschyun (log)

[woodburner]

You could dispute the charge on the card, but since you got the meal and chose to pay for it, you probably wouldn't get any help from the credit card company.

I have had problems with products, and services after payment by credit card. My company has always sided with me, until the problem was resolved.

woodburner

I was surprised to find out that credit card companies do more than just take your money. I was always told "buyer beware", but this isn't necessarily the case. I know with platinum cards, you are afforded some protection, but apparently Fowke's case can go his way via the credit card company.

I called my credit card company and the dispute resolution person there told me that to dispute charges, first you have to send in written documentation about what happened, and any other documentation that you can find, like the bill and Fowke's letter to the management, their reply.

Then what they do is charge the restaurant back and see if they dispute it. If the restaurant decides to dispute the chargeback (is this a word?), then they wrangle for a bit. If they can't resolve it, then the dispute goes to Visa. If it gets to Visa, then there are substantial charges involved, and if you lose, you pay more (I didn't get all her jargon, but I understood that losing the dispute meant paying charges). Over a $22 meal, she said they wouldn't even send it to Visa if the dispute could not be resolved by the credit card company.

She said that in the situation I outlined (basically C. Fowke's experience), the chances are about 50-50 that the dispute will go his way. She said that his case would have been stronger had he walked out on the bill. Also, she asked how much of the meal was eaten and when (before or after the complaint). His case is stronger because he didn't eat after the complaint. He didn't eat right?

The lady talked fast so I hope I got everything.

Crap, i just rememberd that i forgot to tell her, he only talked to the waitress not the manager.

--edit

Just remembered that she said they get about 300 calls a day (I use a small credit union's credit card) about this very thing. She said to send in your documentation and see what happens.

--end edit

You doubted woodburner

Yeah, card companies hold much more clout than you and I. (singular)

And I can add this without getting too much into the process, since each card/member may have some different layers of service.

Just a mere call from a credit agency to discuss a backcharge, will send most honest business owners scrambling for the phone, to kiss the ass of the customer.

I would never walk out on a meal, no matter how bad or terrible it was, or refuse to pay.

Just me I guess.

I go by the rule, I'll pay now, but you'll pay more.

woodburner

Edited December 4, 2003 by woodburner (log)

[marie-louise]

A variation on the theme of paying or not paying. I'm curious how others would have handled this situation.

My husband and I had TERRIBLE service-and not very good food, but that's beside the point-at a restaurant called Cafe Maddelena in Duinsmuir. It was the last night of our vacation, it was late, and we'd hiked a lot that day so we were starving and tired. The restaurant, which had been widely well-reviewed, had recently sold, but the new owner/ chef was the previous owner/ chef of another local place with a good reputation, Trinity Cafe.

The owner of the small hotel we were staying at called and made reservations for us, so they knew we were tourists. The place was full, and most people appeared to know each other, and the chef (it has an open kitchen, so we had a ringside seat everytime he stopped service to chat for a while.) We didn't get our appetizers for literally 45 minutes, although people who came in after us were finishing their entrees before we got any food. At one point we asked our server if it was going to be much longer before we were served, as we were just too hungry to wait, and if it was going to be long we'd like to pay for our wine and leave. It was going to be "just a minute"...it was a long time... out came a hot salad that had clearly been dressed about 15 minutes earlier, and a cold appetizer that was supposed to be hot off the grill. We offered to pay at that point if the entrees were going to take much longer... were assured they weren't... everyone in town is now on dessert... finally another hour later (1 hour and 45 minutes after placing our order) comes an absolutely terrible pizza w/ an almost raw crust and barely melted cheese and some almost raw butternut squash ravioli with a greasy, not-browned butter sauce. Hypoglycemic and frustrated beyond belief at the chef passive-agressively undercooking our food, we ate every bite. We wanted to cut our losses and get the hell out of there.

When we asked for the check, the waitress came with a bill that said "so sorry-no charge." We decided that we wanted to pay because 1) we ate every bite, even though the food wasn't very good and 2) we still tipped her because she did bring the food and she had no control over how hard the chef felt like working and what order he cooked the food. It would have made all the difference if the chef/ owner, or the hostess who was also not working too hard, had come over to us at some point during the meal and apologized.

What would you have done? Would you have paid? In hindsight, I wish I'd followed my instincts and walked out of there before the appetizers came, but I don't regret paying for food we ate.

[merle]

My husband and I had TERRIBLE service

(...snip...)

When we asked for the check, the waitress came with a bill that said "so sorry-no charge." We decided that we wanted to pay because 1) we ate every bite, even though the food wasn't very good and 2) we still tipped her because she did bring the food and she had no control over how hard the chef felt like working and what order he cooked the food. It would have made all the difference if the chef/ owner, or the hostess who was also not working too hard, had come over to us at some point during the meal and apologized.

What would you have done? Would you have paid? In hindsight, I wish I'd followed my instincts and walked out of there before the appetizers came, but I don't regret paying for food we ate.

I agree with tipping the waitress. Even when I go to restaurants and use "2 fer 1" coupons I try to tip on what the price would have been.

Not sure I would have paid for the meal, having been given a chance not to. Yes, you ate the food -- but at the cost of several hours of your life, and the suffering of your taste buds and stomach. In my mind I would already have paid for it. Payment in pain, not cash, but if they're offering that currency...

[woodburner]

But the waiter was not the one to speak to to get the problem resolved.  And you clearly weren't in for a free meal as you had only eaten 10% of each dish.

I find this interesting?

Is this 10 percent by volume, or weight.

woodburner

Edited December 5, 2003 by woodburner (log)

[mixmaster b]

Chef Fowke, I am sorry to hear about your unpleasant evening.

I think the restaurant was completely to blame, in particular your server. Sending the busboy to tell the chef there was a probleminstead of handling it himself, then choosing to bill you for the full meal, was not good service. But as you said, the systemic nature of the problem was made clear by the poor response to your e-mail. Did you pay with a card? I would suggest replying to the e-mail with a request for a refund onto the card. If they said you should not have paid, they should stand by the statement.

By the way, I don't think $22 for lamb is cheap. We have a local Indian place that does a great tandoori lamb rack for about 15 bucks--that's cheap. But even that would not be a bargain if it sucked!

I do agree that sometimes it is not worth the fight. The aggravation of getting the manager, complaining, waiting around--sometimes it is not worth it. I think I would have done the same thing you did.

And thanks for the warning--I am one potential customer who will avoid the place now.

[Chef Fowke]

Look out; here is Chef Fowke's famous twist on things....

I am a little surprised that no one ever said 'relax, the restaurant was full! Lots of people obviously like it. Maybe they were just having a bad night. You have no right making a complaint if you were not willing to try the place a second time'.

I work at one of Canada's largest white tablecloth seafood restaurants. We make mistakes. We have a budget for complaints. I wonder how well we do? I think we turn ever complaint into a customer....

The restaurant business is a hard gig. Perishable inventory, constantly revolving staff, eccentric Chefs, alcohol and long hours for the staff.

I would hope that someone would give me a second chance if I had a bad night.

Here is a great post. I had on some of my work go sideways on me! (user name) Coop took me to task and I beleive his words were true. This is how he/she felt. Now we do 175 000 guest a year and hopefully those numbers would prove a few people like us!

Here is the link: Chef Fowke Slage!

[marie-louise]

... I would hope that someone would give me a second chance if I had a bad night...

To err is human, to forgive is divine. I guess my answer on second chances is, it depends, but probably my answer would be no.

I can forgive a lukewarm soup or incorrect entree (within reason) a lot quicker than I can forgive rude or inattentive service. In your case, maybe the lamb was from a bad night in the kitchen, but the staff's reaction to it was the result of bad training by management. In my case, it was clear the owner/ chef had the philosophy that tourists were second class scum who would be served only when he had finished serving-and chatting with-all of his local customers. I saw no evidence of pride in delivering good service or creating good food the night I was there. I don't think it is too much to ask that a $6. green salad is not dressed 15 minutes beforehand and not put on a hot plate. Consistently-every salad, every night-not just for the customers you think will be returning.

I wouldn't give either of these establishments another dime of my hard-earned money. There are so many good restaurants around the Bay Area, far more than I have the time to enjoy. I don't understand why I shouldn't just move on to the next one rather than give someone a second chance to disappoint me.

[mixmaster b]

... I would hope that someone would give me a second chance if I had a bad night...

To err is human, to forgive is divine. I guess my answer on second chances is, it depends, but probably my answer would be no.

I can forgive a lukewarm soup or incorrect entree (within reason) a lot quicker than I can forgive rude or inattentive service. In your case, maybe the lamb was from a bad night in the kitchen, but the staff's reaction to it was the result of bad training by management. In my case, it was clear the owner/ chef had the philosophy that tourists were second class scum who would be served only when he had finished serving-and chatting with-all of his local customers. I saw no evidence of pride in delivering good service or creating good food the night I was there. I don't think it is too much to ask that a $6. green salad is not dressed 15 minutes beforehand and not put on a hot plate. Consistently-every salad, every night-not just for the customers you think will be returning.

I wouldn't give either of these establishments another dime of my hard-earned money. There are so many good restaurants around the Bay Area, far more than I have the time to enjoy. I don't understand why I shouldn't just move on to the next one rather than give someone a second chance to disappoint me.

This is my feeling exactly. A poor meal is bad enough, but the way it was handled by the staff was not cool. And the e-mail was the "nail in the coffin". They had numerous chances to get you on their good side, and they failed consistently.

The bad night question is a hard one. If I go to a place for the first time and all the food is unimpressive or not good, it is very unlikely I will go back. If a trusted friend urges me, I'll consider it, but there are just so many choices...

However, if just one of the items is sub par, and the staff handles it well, I am willing to overlook it. I'll try the place again. (Especially if it is a new place, or I can see that they are unusually busy.)

I am curious, Chef Fowke, would you try that place again after the experience you had?

[Chef Fowke]

No, I do not see myself trying it again.

[BettiePage]

As a waitress there is no way you should have paid for the meal. It is the servers responsiblilty to take care of a customer complaint. I can't count the amount of times i've taken things off a guests bill because they obviously didn't like it but didn't complain.