Sichuan Peppercorn

[mrbigjas]

I just think you're failing to give her a fair hearing on account of the fact that you failed to find them yourself. As I mentioned, whilst I haven't bought them myself recently, I've been told by people I trust that sichuan peppercorns can be found in NYC if you know what to look for.

Yeah so anyway, this whole "can you find them and how easy is it" thing has been going back and forth for a while with no clear winner, but no one's brought up a related question: when kaffir lime leaves were banned, people planted the trees here. Now I can buy U.S.-grown kaffir lime leaves, no problem. Can't people grow sichuan peppercorns here?

[Ian]

Yeah so anyway, this whole "can you find them and how easy is it" thing has been going back and forth for a while with no clear winner

I would love to see something official to indicate this ban actually exists though. Ah well. We can't always get what we want.

Can't people grow sichuan peppercorns here?

Well, this webpage suggests that the prickly ash is already being grown in North America.

All the best,

Edited January 28, 2004 by Ian (log)

[eatingwitheddie]

No mistake. Sichuan pepper can still be found in NYC chinatown.

All the best,

--

Ian

At the moment this is essentially NOT true. While you may be able to find some here and there (back room stashes for special customers?), by and large their availability is minimal or none at all.

As many have written on this site, if you enter virtually any grocery store in NY's 3 1/2 Chinatowns they are not for sale - certainly not in the way they had been available up until 'enforcement' began a year or two ago. I know this for a fact, because I prowl around Chinese groceries many times a week and always look for them (for fun - I have a large personal supply). I NEVER see them and when I ask I'm told: 'no more, illegal'.

Go to Toronto, or perhaps to wholesale/internet spice sources where the ban hasn't been enforced and you can find some. My son reports seeing some for sale at NY's Porto Rico coffee on Bleecker St. just last week. But by and large they're not readily available the way they used to be.

By the way I was interviewed by The New York Times for an article that will be appearing on this subject. The writer who has done serious research on the subject tells me that the USDA regulation prohibiting Sichuan peppercorn importation and distribution dates back quite a long time, to the late 60's I believe she said. It's just recently that they have decided to enforce it. I don't know what precipitated this change in policy.

[tommy]

The writer who has done serious research on the subject tells me that the USDA regulation prohibiting Sichuan peppercorn importation and distribution dates back quite a long time, to the late 60's I believe she said. It's just recently that they have decided to enforce it.

glad to see someone did some research.

Edited January 29, 2004 by tommy (log)

[weinoo]

Hi Eddie,

It's really interesting, but I recently (within the last 3 months or so) bought some at the Kan Man (?) market on Canal Street. Prowling the markets is something I do pretty frequently as well, and since I'll be out on Grand Street today, I'll take another look-see.

[eatingwitheddie]

Hi Eddie,

It's really interesting, but I recently (within the last 3 months or so) bought some at the Kan Man (?) market on Canal Street. Prowling the markets is something I do pretty frequently as well, and since I'll be out on Grand Street today, I'll take another look-see.

I don't doubt it, but that seems to be the exception. Also 3 months back Kan Man was having a fire sale of many goods because their Mott St location was going out of business. Perhaps they had some in a warehouse and thought that this would be a good time to move it. Or perhaps they are able to obtain them on a regular basis and just sell them quietly. Clearly restaurants have them and they are around. But by and large I believe they are not available. I have looked hundreds of times.

[NeroW]

We used them at school the other day. The bag was old, dusty, and crinkled in that way old plastic-bags get. They had no "spark."

[jo-mel]

~~~~~~~because their Mott St location was going out of business. ~~~~~~~~~

HUH??? Kam Man is leaving?

How about Kam Guo??

[Pan]

Kam Kuo closed about 2 months ago.

[pjs]

The writer who has done serious research on the subject tells me that the USDA regulation prohibiting Sichuan peppercorn importation and distribution dates back quite a long time, to the late 60's I believe she said. It's just recently that they have decided to enforce it.

glad to see someone did some research.

Tommy, is this what you're looking for?

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 7, Volume 5]

[Revised as of January 1, 2003]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 7CFR319.19]

[Page 225]

                          TITLE 7--AGRICULTURE

CHAPTER III--ANIMAL AND PLANT HEALTH INSPECTION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF

                              AGRICULTURE

PART 319--FOREIGN QUARANTINE NOTICES--Table of Contents

            Subpart--Citrus Canker and Other Citrus Diseases

Sec. 319.19  Notice of quarantine.

    (a) In order to prevent the introduction into the United States of

the citrus canker disease (Xanthomonas citri (Hasse) Dowson) and other

citrus diseases, the importation into the United States of plants or any

plant part, except fruit and seeds, of all genera, species, and

varieties of the subfamilies Aurantioideae, Rutoideae, and Toddalioideae

of the botanical family Rutaceae is prohibited, except as provided in

paragraphs (b), ©, and (d) of this section.

    (b) Plants or plant parts of all genera, species, and varieties of

the subfamilies Aurantioideae, Rutoideae, and Toddalioideae of the

botanical family Rutaceae may be imported into the United States for

experimental or scientific purposes in accordance with conditions

prescribed by the Administrator, Animal and Plant Health Inspection

Service, United States Department of Agriculture.

    © Plants or plant parts of all genera, species, and varieties of

the subfamilies Aurantioideae, Rutoideae, and Toddalioideae of the

botanical family Rutaceae may be imported into Guam in accordance with

Sec. 319.37-6.

    (d) Plants or plant parts of all genera, species, and varieties of

the subfamilies Aurantioideae, Rutoideae, and Toddalioideae of the

botanical family Rutaceae that are regulated articles under

Secs. 319.40-1 through 319.40-11 may be imported into the United States

in accordance with Secs. 319.40-1 through 319.40-11 and without

restriction by this subpart.

    (e) As used in this section unless the context otherwise requires,

the term ``United States'' means the continental United States, Guam,

Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands of the United States.

[24 FR 10788, Dec. 29, 1959, as amended at 60 FR 27674, May 25, 1995]

PJ

PS: NeroW, do you actually have a recording of the song you quoted lyrics from in your sig?

[tommy]

Tommy, is this what you're looking for?

i don't know what most of those words in that passage meant.

although i'm not looking for anything but sichuan peppercorns. you know, those things that are really easy to find in NYC if you know where to go and the secret handshake.

[pjs]

I think this is the mother regulation (dated 1959). Szechuan Peppercorns are in the Rutaceae family (citrus). I'm not sure about their sub-family but I'd place a good bet they are included in one of those listed. You won't find a reference to actual Szechuan Peppercorns in all of this mumbo-jumbo, only their classification name. Frankly, after slogging through mind-numbing, misleading, ill-constructed government sites for an hour or so today I felt like someone has been whacking me in the temples with a ball-peen hammer. So I stopped when I found this document.

Some other things to note:

According to the manual for US port inspectors, ALL citrus seeds are subject to quarantine. I'll dig up the link if anyone would like it.

Also, Szechuan Peppercorns are not actually peppercorns. They are the buds of a citrus plant. The import restrictions on pepper plants and parts are quite unrestrictive. This mislabeling could lead to easier entry in my opinion. I can provide a link on this info too.

BTW my beloved central Florida asian grocer has restocked his prominent display of Szech Pep after having his inventory confiscated by the feds last year. Complete with a hand-lettered sign promoting the stale product. Wouldn't be the first time he's had to pay a big fine.

I need another drink.

PJ

[tommy]

that's some great info PJS. thanks for taking the time!

[Pan]

OK, I'm Googling "Sichuan peppercorn Latin name":

Sichuan peppercorn [huajiao, fruit of Zanthoxylum bungeanum

Source: Chinese Medicinals

Sichuan Peppercorns

Zanthoxylum piperitum syn Xanthozylum piperitum. Not related to the peppercorn family but resembling black peppercorns containing a tiny seed. This is the one with the kick.

asiacuisine.com "Spice Trail"

Now, Googling under "prickly ash Latin name," I've found a site that seems authoritative on matters of botany:

Zanthoxylum simulans

Szechuan pepper

Genus: Zanthoxylum

Family: Rutaceae

Synonyms: Zanthoxylum bungei

GardenWeb's HortiPlex Plant Database Species Record #: gw1042878

And there are links to information about various Zanthoxylum species and indeed other genuses beginning with the letter "Z" here:

GardenBed.com Z index

[Pan]

OK, I've now been trawling Google trying to find out a breakdown of genii (? genuses?) under the subfamily Rutoideae, but I haven't found a chart that shows this.

[torakris]

OK, I've now been trawling Google trying to find out a breakdown of genii (? genuses?) under the subfamily Rutoideae, but I haven't found a chart that shows this.

have you looked at this?

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/eng...l?Zant_pip.html

It has given me a headache and at the very bottom there is a mention of the ban.

[jo-mel]

<<<<<<Import of sichuan pepper to the USA is currently banned in order to prevent spread of the citrus canker disease. Citrus canker is caused by a bacterium (Xanthomonas axonopodis pv. citri) that infects several members of family Rutaceae, particularily citrus fruits; being highly contagious and impossible to cure, citrus canker now poses a severe threat to the orange industry in Florida. For fear of importing new strains of the pathogen, the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) has set a general ban on several herbal products, including Chinese sichuan pepper.>>>>>>

I would like to see actual data on the spread of the citrus canker to the trees. ----especially since this warning went out so long ago. Is the power of the citrus farmers so strong that the entire country is held hostage? How come the citrus farmers in California are not mentioned?

I'm getting ticked!

[pjs]

OK, I've now been trawling Google trying to find out a breakdown of genii (? genuses?) under the subfamily Rutoideae, but I haven't found a chart that shows this.

Basic classification info for Szechuan Peppercorns is available here.

I found a complete classification breakdown for Zanthoxylum Simulans (Szechuan Peppercorns) here.

Family is Rutaceae, Sub-Family is Rutoideae. So, Szechuan Peppercorns have been subject to quarantine in the US for the past 45 years according to Title 7 of the Code of Federal Regulations, section 319.19, which you can search for here.

If interested, you can download the USDA's Department of Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service's (APHIS) manuals here.

As Eddie mentioned, what's strange is why the USDA is now coming down hard after over forty years of basically looking the other way. I also noticed in my googling that many genus Zanthoxylum plants are native to the US, at least two can be found in Florida.

PJ

Edited February 2, 2004 by pjs (log)

[Pan]

Thanks a lot, pjs.

[Briarhill]

I apologize for this somewhat off-subject post, but after reading this thread end-to-end, I feel almost, um, normal in my frequently maniacal pursuit of culinary "extremes" (which, much like beauty, are very much in the eyes of the beholder!). Thanks to all who contributed.

Somewhat more on-topic: I've been using these peppercorns for years but am nearing the end of my current (I believe) Penzey's-supplied cache. There is an enormous range of Asian markets here in Atlanta, and somebody, somewhere, has got to have some more for me! I'll post if and when I find them.

Bob

[skchai]

Maybe somebody has mentioned this already, but here's an article from the NY Times tomorrow:

Sichuan Food's Signature Fire Is Becoming Hard to Find, By DENISE LANDIS

Quoteth Ms. Landis:

Eddie Schoenfeld, a consultant with decades of experience in Chinese restaurants, said that Chinese chefs would be unable to cook certain dishes without Sichuan peppercorns, but that they could still create many popular recipes in the Sichuan style.

"It's as if tarragon became unavailable to the French," Mr. Schoenfeld said. "They would still be able to make béarnaise sauce. It wouldn't be the same, but it would still be good."

Any comments, Eddie?

[Carlovski]

Personally I'd rather still be able to have my hot and numbing chicken than a glass of orange juice. Sod the canker, drop the ban.

[NeroW]

PS: NeroW, do you actually have a recording of the song you quoted lyrics from in your sig?

Why, PJS, indeed I do. The Kinks.

I am changing that sig line today, I believe.

Thanks everyone for the great info on this thread. The fight continues . . .

[robyn]

I would like to see actual data on the spread of the citrus canker to the trees. ----especially since this warning went out so long ago. Is the power of the citrus farmers so strong that the entire country is held hostage? How come the citrus farmers in California are not mentioned?

I'm getting ticked!

I don't recall that California citrus growers have had problems with canker lately. There are lots of problems with canker in Florida.

Agriculture is the second largest industry in Florida - which is the fourth largest state in the country. So the industry is kind of important politically. And influential in terms of money too. After all - the name on the University of Florida football stadium is "Ben Hill Griffin" (one of the largest citrus growers in the state) - not Wong's Chinese Restaurant. Ben Hill Griffin's daughter is Katherine Harris - ex-secretary of state of Florida (of year 2000 presidential election news) - now a Congressperson. Robyn (long time resident of Florida)

[pjs]

Ah yes. Katherine Harris. Have all the god-awful lawsuits over inherited citrus money between her and her siblings been settled yet?

What we're dealing with here is an ancient, no longer relevent regulation--dated nineteen-fifty, fuckin' nine--barring imports based on speculation.

Jeez, I recently viewed an aerial survey of Cocoa Beach taken in the '60's. There were orange groves everywhere. I don't think their almost total absence today is due to a freakin' spice from Asia.

PJ