Q&A -- Brining

[Jason Perlow]

WHAT ABOUT VACUUM MARINATION? TRIED IT?

Dave,

Have you ever worked with or a you familiar with vacuum marination?

We occassionally vacuum marinate at home if we are pressed for time. Our Telia Foodsaver can vacuum marinate -- we simply put the meat in one of the special plastic jars, toss in the marinade, seal it up, jiggle it around for a bit, and vacuum all the air out. 15 minutes or so later, you got marinaded meat. I like to let it go for an hour, if I want a really strong marinaded flavor.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, I think it really depends on how long you leave the meat in the brine and how strong the flavor is in the brine.  I have used herb flavorings steeped in the brine, lemon juice and chili pepper in the brine, and also garlic brines.  All of these flavors penetrated deeply, as was evident by tasting some of the flesh near the bone.  Part of the secret, I think, is that the flavoring agent has to be really strong in the brine.

I do think your molecular size hypothesis makes sense.  For eample, I wonder if it might be the case that pigment molecules are too large or otherwise not able to be carried deep into flesh.  When I have brined chicken with chili peppers, the chili flavor was carried deep into the flesh but very little of the red color.  The red color ended up mostly on the skin and the outside of the flesh.

Well, between you, me and the Colonel, we've really answered tommy's question!

How about posting a recipe for one of your brines? I'm curious as to how much "really" strong is.

I agree with the Pigment Corollary, and I think this sort of "fracturing" of solubles happens a lot. To bring molasses up again, I think the simpler sugars get through the cell walls. But molasses is a combination of many sugars, some of them quite complex. It's these more complex sugars that give molasses its charateristic color and flavor, yet very little of this flavor ends up in the meat.

[Dave the Cook]

WHAT ABOUT VACUUM MARINATION? TRIED IT?

Dave,

Have you ever worked with or a you familiar with vacuum marination? It is a relatively recent addition to the world of brining and injecting. More suitable to small pieces of meat, vacuum marination involves a stainless steel cylinder which after being filled with brine and protein has most of the air removed from it. The interior has little ledges which pick up the meat as the cylinder slowly revolves and tumbles the meat and seafood in the brine. Somehow the removal of air causes the protein to to act like a sponge and it efficiently quickly soak up the brine. I have had great success working with a vacuum marinator and think they are really useful machines. I first saw them used at the Perdue R & D facility in western Virginia.

I've never tried this. Please get Perdue to send me one of those machines.

Seriously, these sound like a vacuum-enhanced version of how brining is carried on at an industrial scale. I'm not clear on the physics of how the vacuum affects osmosis and diffusion, though. Do you have, or do you have a source for, more information? And is what Jason's talking about the same thing?

Edit: this vacuum stuff reminds me of a talk I had with Sandor Zombori (more about him here). He was experimenting with post-heat brining. He would sear a rack of lamb, then drop it in a vacuum pouch with a sort of vinaigrette (EVOO, lemon juice, water, salt, herbs and spices. He'd draw a vacuum and let it sit for a day, then finish to order on the grill. Again, the science is somewhat inscrutable, but I can't argue with the results -- it was one of the best lamb dishes I've ever had. The evidence that he had successfully seasoned throughout the meat was that lamb done to 130 F was brown throughout, rather than pink inside. He complained that people sent it back as overdone simply on the basis of how the cut meat looked.

Edited September 23, 2003 by Dave the Cook (log)

[Dave the Cook]

This is a simple question, but I don't recall seeing it in the instructions. 

What do you do with the meat after it comes out of the brine?  Rinse?  Rub dry? Air dry?

I'm sorry, this should have been in the lesson, so thanks for asking.

It depends on how you're cooking the meat. With one exception (see below), I always rinse the meat to get rid of surface salt, etc., and pat it dry. Then you're ready to go, or use the following optional treatments (none of them are necessities):

In addition: for whole turkey, I set it breast side up on a rack over a half-sheet pan, uncovered, and let the skin dry out for four to six hours. I'll do the same for whole/spatchcocked chicken (also duck and game hens), unless I'm going to subject the skin to hight heat anyway, as in Eddie's technique, or in my preference, which is basically Eddie's technique done on a grill. Also, if I'm pan-frying or broiling parts, I don't bother with the refrigerator drying.

If I'm going to do Southern fried chicken, I go one of two routes: I either give it another bath, this time in low-fat buttermilk; or I leave the chicken parts brine-wet and dredge them in flour. The moisture helps the flour adhere to the skin. I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

[slkinsey]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

[Dave the Cook]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

[Mottmott]

I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl. It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie.

[JAZ]

Dave, the last couple of times I've brined meat (chicken thighs and pork tenderloin), I've then finished it with a jerk-style paste/marinade (more of a paste than a marinade) for a very short time -- about 20 minutes.

Not that I did side-by-side comparisons, but it seemed to me that the flavors in the paste permeated the brined meat more than they did when I used the paste on untreated meat. Do you think that was just my imagination? Is there some reason for that to happen?

[Dave the Cook]

I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl.  It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie.

Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

This is not to deny that it's very good, of course. In fact, it sounds terrific.

[slkinsey]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

I know what you mean. If they're cheap pork chops, I really only like them thin cut and smothered (in either onions, mushrooms or both). I brown them off over really high heat, then put them aside as I deglaze and make the onions and/or mushrooms. When that's ready, I put the pork chops back in just long enough to heat them through. Seems to keep them tender and moist.

For a real pork chop experience, I am lucky enough to have an old-fashioned full-service butcher nearby. When I want double cut pork chops, he pulls a whole fat-covered bone-in loin of pork out of the walk-in and asks how I want 'em. Not cheap, but certainly not expensive (although obviously I'm talking relative to NYC prices here). I usually brine these for around 2-3 hours before pan searing and finishing in the oven. They've never let me down even once. Nothing like it next to some cheddar cheese grits and sauteed bitter greens dressed with hot pepper vinegar.

[Varmint]

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able).  Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

Now, now, Dave. It's gonna be all right. Varmint's here to take care of you in a couple of weeks with some Niman Ranch pig. There, isn't that better now?

[slkinsey]

Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

Dave, look here. I linked to this recipe from this page, which attributed the recipe to Patrick O'Connell.

Sounds like brining to me.

[Mottmott]

I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl.  It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie.

Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

This is not to deny that it's very good, of course. In fact, it sounds terrific.

My bad, I should have said "brine," not "marinate." The recipe is below, both attributed and paraphrased, so it should be legal.

BRINED CHICKEN from Patrick O’Connell,

found in NYT 12-22-99

serves 4-5; Time: 1 hour 15 minutes, plus overnight brining

My notes: This recipe imparts a wonderful taste to the fowl; used on both chicken and Turkey. Time must be adjusted for the size of the bird. Used on parts do not follow timing here or it becomes too salty. For the turkey (fresh, organic, free range), I multiplied the recipe and used a picnic cooler which I left outdoors in the chill Fall air. Worked fine.

BRINE:

½ cup kosher salt

1 3/4 cups sugar

1 cup honey

3 sprigs each parsley, dill, thyme, tarragon, sage

1 sprig rosemary

1 Tbs mustard seeds

1 Tbs fennel seeds

1 cinnamon stick

2 large bay leaves

4 cloves

½ Tbs juniper berries

½ Tbs cardamom pods

1 Tbs black peppercorns

1 lemon, halved and squeezed lightly

3 star anise

½ Tbs whole allspice

CHICKEN:

3-4 lb chicken

1 cup sliced carrots

1 cup sliced celery

1 cup sliced onion

2 Tbs butter, melted

1. Large stockpot or roasting pan that holds chicken in one piece: bring 1 gallon to a boil; remove from heat, add all brine ingredients, stir. Cool to room temperature. (Of course you can substitute a ziplock for the pan once the brine cools.)

2. Add chicken to pan. Cover, refrigerate overnight.

From here you can substitute your own favorite way of roasting the bird, but I give you O'Connell's instructions for completeness:

3. Drain chicken well, discard brine. Cut off and discard wing tips. Preheat oven to 350f. Roasting pan: place carrot, celery, onion. Place chicken on top of veggies. Brush chicken with melted butter.

4. Roast chicken til thigh joint temperature reaches 150f, about 1 hour. Baste with pan juices at least every 15 minutes. Watch carefully to avoid burning. If parts become well browned, cover with foil. When chicken is done remove from oven. Allow it to rest at least 10 minutes before carving. (depends on size of bird, of course)

[Dave the Cook]

Yup, that's brining.

One thing I learned from Alton Brown that speeds things up (I used the same technique in the lesson) is to cut the water in half (you'll still have plenty to dissolve the salt and sugar). Then let the brine cool just a bit and add the other half as ice-water.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, the last couple of times I've brined meat (chicken thighs and pork tenderloin), I've then finished it with a jerk-style paste/marinade (more of a paste than a marinade) for a very short time -- about 20 minutes.

Not that I did side-by-side comparisons, but it seemed to me that the flavors in the paste permeated the brined meat more than they did when I used the paste on untreated meat. Do you think that was just my imagination? Is there some reason for that to happen?

I've gotten the same sense when I've slipped chili oil or an herb paste under the skin of a brined chicken. All I can think is that somehow the brining is opening up the surface of the flesh somehow. I can't think of a way to prove or disprove our observations, though.

[Dave the Cook]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

I know what you mean. If they're cheap pork chops, I really only like them thin cut and smothered (in either onions, mushrooms or both). I brown them off over really high heat, then put them aside as I deglaze and make the onions and/or mushrooms. When that's ready, I put the pork chops back in just long enough to heat them through. Seems to keep them tender and moist.

For a real pork chop experience, I am lucky enough to have an old-fashioned full-service butcher nearby. When I want double cut pork chops, he pulls a whole fat-covered bone-in loin of pork out of the walk-in and asks how I want 'em. Not cheap, but certainly not expensive (although obviously I'm talking relative to NYC prices here). I usually brine these for around 2-3 hours before pan searing and finishing in the oven. They've never let me down even once. Nothing like it next to some cheddar cheese grits and sauteed bitter greens dressed with hot pepper vinegar.

Butcher? What's a butcher?

I do the smothering thing when I can't stand the loneliness anymore, but these are not the chops of my youth.

I do have high hopes for a carneceria that's opened around the corner, and Jason has suggested trying Chinese shops for pork. I might try this, as there is a serious Asian shopping district in Northeast Atlanta.

[FoodMan]

Dave-

Congrats on a very informative and interesting class!! I started brining meats (especially pork, bscb, and whole chickens) after I did this:

This was the turkey from last thanksgiving. It was brined and cooked per Alton Brown's recipe and it was a huge success. We -for the first time- had no leftovers.

My 2 cents about flavoring the brine even though they have been mentioned already: I do believe making a strong tea with the brine works great. I've infused meat cuts with rosmary, mint, ginger and allspice berries to name a few. The main thing is that the liquid needs to boil with them for a minute or two then steep till cool. For me brinign is not just a method to make meats moist or tender but also a great carrier of flavors.

FM

[theakston]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:

I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

And food man. Thanks for posting that picture. I wasn't hungry before.

I'm now going to have to go for lunch.

[Dave the Cook]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:

I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

Thank you.

I think the potato thing is charming, and I think it would work, for the most part. But it's hardly the sort of thing you can expect a Smug Scientific Bastard (SSB) to approve:

• A lot would depend on the type of potato. Setting aside individual potato-to-potato (p2p) variation, there are big differences in moisture content between, say, a Russet and a Yukon Gold. This water content would be the prime determinant in the quantity of salt required to enable tuber buoyancy. You would have to contend with both original water content, and differing rates of absorption.
  
• It's hardly repeatable, due to p2p variation cited above. Repeatability is essential for SSB endorsement.
  
• SSBs don't believe in guesswork when a measuring device (especially if it's electronic) can obviate it. Weigh your salt, measure your water. Save the rustic notions for garnishing your perfectly seasoned protein.
  

[Dave the Cook]

That is one beautiful turkey, FoodMan.

[FoodMan]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:

I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

Thank you.

I think the potato thing is charming, and I think it would work, for the most part. But it's hardly the sort of thing you can expect a Smug Scientific Bastard (SSB) to approve:

• A lot would depend on the type of potato. Setting aside individual potato-to-potato (p2p) variation, there are big differences in moisture content between, say, a Russet and a Yukon Gold. This water content would be the prime determinant in the quantity of salt required to enable tuber buoyancy. You would have to contend with both original water content, and differing rates of absorption.
  
• It's hardly repeatable, due to p2p variation cited above. Repeatability is essential for SSB endorsement.
  
• SSBs don't believe in guesswork when a measuring device (especially if it's electronic) can obviate it. Weigh your salt, measure your water. Save the rustic notions for garnishing your perfectly seasoned protein.
  

Thanks.

what about using an egg instead of potato?? Or would be then pickling the meat?? I beleive that is what my grandma does when she is curing olives.

FM

[Dave the Cook]

what about using an egg instead of potato?? Or would be then pickling the meat?? I beleive that is what my grandma does when she is curing olives.

FM

Aw, hell. I was afraid someone would bring up the egg. Now I'm going have to try it and see how much salt is required. I'll let you know.

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

[FoodMan]

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

I wouldn't, I was just wondering. Besides now (after you get back to us with the results of course) we would know how much salt is required to float an egg

FM

[Dave the Cook]

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

I wouldn't, I was just wondering. Besides now (after you get back to us with the results of course) we would know how much salt is required to float an egg

FM

You're right, it's important.

[maggiethecat]

Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

Mr. SSB, Sir:

Old trucs like this can be invaluable. It is possible, just possible, that one can find oneself obliged to cook without instrumentation. Is is perfectly feasible that one could someday be brining a beast without measuring/weighing equipment.

Well...lost in the Outback, or something like that.

(Backing out of lab cautiously.)