Eating Dog

[skchai]

Quote

skchai said:

Boshintang / Sacheoltang / Mongmongtang, i.e. Dog Soup.  O.K., I've never tried it, but it's I guess it has attained talismanic status in the guk/ tang category.  As is often the case, this occured in part as a result of the efforts by PETA, Brigitte Bardot and others to have it banned.  Being challenged in such a way, it now becomes an essential part of what it means to be true Korean (male).

Yes...how could I forget boshintang? Especially during the "dog days of summer" which, traditionally in Korea, are actually the dog days of summer. There are three days during the summer when it is traditional to eat dog meat.

My favorite way to eat dog, however, is tomagogi, which is stewed and sliced dog meat served on a wooden board (toma). The seasoning dip is sublime -- heavy on the gochujang, sesame oil, shiso seeds, and more.

Wait, maybe this should be a dog thread.

Jim

You wish is my command.

Perhaps we could start off this thread in the traditional Egullet fashion. How often do you eat dog soup? What is your favorite way of preparing dog? How do you rate dog meat compared to cat / hamster / armadillo?

However, given that presumably few people here have actually tried dog meat, perhaps it would be better to start a thread about the ethical issues involved? Is it barbaric treatment of man's best friend or a cultural practice that ought to be defended? Feel free to weigh in on whale-eating and other practices that raise similar issues. . .

[torakris]

I have never eaten dog, it isn't available in Japan (to my knowledge) and I have never been to Korea.

If I do ever get to Korea I will definitely search it out, I have wanted to try it for a long time.

No problems with whale either, I have eaten it quite a few times (horse as well) and enjoy it., I almost bought some whale sashimi at the store yesterday but being 2 days before payday it wasn't in the budget!

[Wren]

I have never eaten dog, it isn't available in Japan (to my knowledge) and I have never been to Korea.

If I do ever get to Korea I will definitely search it out, I have wanted to try it for a long time.

No problems with whale either, I have eaten it quite a few times (horse as well) and enjoy it., I almost bought some whale sashimi at the store yesterday but being 2 days before payday it wasn't in the budget!

If you really want to eat dog, go to Switzerland. The Swiss eat more dog per capita than any other country. Their dog of choice: Saint Bernard. Method of preparation: Sausage.

[jschyun]

Although I can't see myself eating dog, because I'm female and I have 4 dogs of my own, I can say that the guys I know who have had it, don't think it's all that different from beef. These are not gourmets I'm talking about, though.

As for ethical issues, at least some restaurants raise dogs for meat, and I'm sure they also catch stray dogs on the street. How different is that from raising cows, goats or chickens for food? Or hunting venison?

Also, tiny dogs (Pomeranians, or Yorkshires like my dogs) are expensive in Korea, if you can get them at all, so they don't get grilled. Also, they wouldn't have much meat, I imagine. So you don't have to worry so much about those.

[ecr]

"How different is that from raising cows, goats... for food?"

Disclaimer: I don't eat dog, and I wouldn't eat dog. I have a dog and I'm the sort of squeamish type who wouldn't ever eat bacon again if I had a pet pig (a good reason not to get a pet pig ). Ditto cats and rabbit (I've got or have had them, so wouldn't eat them).

But if one wishes to eat dog, that's their choice.

I do, however, have problems with a couple of the arguments advanced by the pro-dog-food camp, so to speak, to defend the practice.

The first is the cultural argument. You know, that dog meat consumption is a vital part of Korean/Chinese/Vietnamese etc. culture and so needs to be "protected" (usually from the incursion of foreign --- read, Western --- culture that labels the practice unacceptable). Culture in any setting is not immutable (slavery was part of U.S. southern culture, remember?) and it seems Koreans/Chinese/Vietnamese etc. are perfectly amenable to change in other aspects of their cultures, even to changes in their food cultures (and often these are Western-influenced changes). Spam, anyone? So what's with the burning need to protect and preserve this one facet of local culture? You'll also find Koreans, Vietnamese, and Chinese who don't and never would eat dog. Are they less Korean/Vietnamese/or Chinese for it? If one's answer is "no" then I would maintain that dog meat consumption is really not as integral a part of these countries' cultures as it is often portrayed.

As for the "it's just like killing cows, pigs, etc. for their meat" argument: in China at least, it's a fairly common belief (among some, perhaps not all, dog and cat connoisseurs) that the more a dog or cat suffers before it dies the tastier the meat will be (which is strange, bec. I understood that the release of adreniline before an animal dies toughens or otherwise adversely affects the meat). I can in no way defend the means and methods of food animal slaughter in the U.S. (even though I'm a meat eater) but I'm pretty sure that they are not specifically designed to prolong suffering (it doesn't mean that the animals don't suffer). So let's be sure of slaughter methods (and animal farming methods, for that matter) before we declare dog meat consumption in X country to be "just like" killing cows, chickens, etc. for their meat.

I don't know about Korea or China but dogs *are* kidnapped in Vietnam (not strays) and some are sold as food (others are ransomed back to their owners). For food at least, unusual (to Vietnam) breeds are favored, especially larger ones like golden retrievers, though small breeds have a market too. Obviously demand fuels the practice. Again, not quite like food animal production in the U.S.

Just trying to raise a couple of not-often discussed aspects of what is usually a pretty emotional topic. If you like dog meat, and you want to be free to eat dog meat, OK. Justify it by saying it's what you like to do and that you don't appreciate anyone else telling you not to, not by maintaining that you are doing your part to ensure the survival of culture X. And if you want to claim that eating dog meat is just like eating beef, etc. then be sure that you know where the animal came from, and whether or not it was humanely raised and slaughtered (on the other hand, if you don't care, then you don't care).

[skchai]

Just trying to raise a couple of not-often discussed aspects of what is usually a pretty emotional topic.  If you like dog meat, and you want to be free to eat dog meat, OK.  Justify it by saying it's what you like to do and that you don't appreciate anyone else telling you not to, not by maintaining that you are doing your part to ensure the survival of culture X.  And if you want to claim that eating dog meat is just like eating beef, etc. then be sure that you know where the animal came from, and whether or not it was humanely raised and slaughtered (on the other hand, if you don't care, then you don't care).

Very well said.

It is interesting to note that "essential cultural practices" are often only defined as such when a theretofor mundane aspect of life either comes under attack from outside and / or is caught up in a conflict between communal groups that exists for other reasons. 19th century records of Korean markets show that dog meat was indeed regularly sold; however it seems to have been viewed at that time as a cheaper substitute for beef, no more and no less. The lore attached to dog-eating only arose in the post-Korean War era as dog meat became relatively scarce, and became viewed as a way of asserting cultural identity only when international animal rights groups launched attacks on the practice in the runup to the 1988 Seoul Olympics. I am not saying that international groups have no right to launch such attacks, but in this case they seem to have caused dog-eating to become more entrenched, at least in some ways.

Edited September 8, 2003 by skchai (log)

[Tonyfinch]

Eating dog is illegal in South Korea, although it still goes on. In an article on Dog Cuisine before the last World Cup there was an interview with S. Korea's most famous Tang chef who poured scorn on Western "sentimentality" towards dogs: "People in the West say dogs are loyal, brave, faithful etc. They are nothing of the kind. They only want you to THINK that they are loyal, brave, faithful etc so that you won't eat them" .

Now that's what I call a culture clash.

[Chef Fowke]

I had cold dog soup in a little hut in the market in Hong Kong with some rice vodka. Both were great and the cost was minimal!!!

(please do not tell my two black lab dogs!)

[Jon Tseng]

One thing I have noticed is that dog is the probably the only carnivorous animal which people eat

dunno what that signifies, but there it is

J

[jsbst18]

Although I can't see myself eating dog, because I'm female and I have 4 dogs of my own, I can say that the guys I know who have had it, don't think it's all that different from beef.  These are not gourmets I'm talking about, though. 

As for ethical issues, at least some restaurants raise dogs for meat, and I'm sure they also catch stray dogs on the street.  How different is that from raising cows, goats or chickens for food?  Or hunting venison? 

Also, tiny dogs (Pomeranians, or Yorkshires like my dogs) are expensive in Korea, if you can get them at all, so they don't get grilled.  Also, they wouldn't have much meat, I imagine.  So you don't have to worry so much about those.

Well I never ate dog in Korea, mostly due to the smell, I wrote before about the eating of dogs in Korea and I just wanted to respond to what the poster that I quoted said.

Dogs that are raised for boshing tang are not the same breed as those that have become a sort of fashion accessory to young women in Korea. The dogs used typically for eating are large dogs of a particular breed whose English name escapes me at the moment, but in Korean it is "Jindo".

The actual eating of a dog versus, say a cow, is not very different at all. For many the idea of eating "Rover" is the main cause for protest while the real focus should be on the conditions that the dogs are raised. Many of these dog farms are illegal farms with cramped conditions where dogs are forced to live in filthy conditions. But, how is this really different from the conditions of other farm animals?

Oh, and I was wondering if the poster mentioned she was a woman because dog is usually eaten by men to increase their sexual potency or is it because she feels women are not as likely to eat a cute fluffy, "doggy" and prefers to dine on the flesh of a dumb old cow.

If you are concerned about the eating of dog in Korea, you can learn more at: http://www.koreananimals.org/dogs_p1.htm

PS- I am not against the eating of dog, or anything in particular as long as the animal does not suffer needlessly prior to slaughter. This is strange because I was a veggie until learining about the suffering of the HUMAN pickers used to bring those "guilt-free" veggies to our tables, but that discussion is for another time and place.

Edited September 8, 2003 by jsbst18 (log)

[SobaAddict70]

It's only "strange and barbaric" because people who label it as such are coming from a different cultural context.

Horses, snakes and insects are and were routinely used for food in American history and culture, and you very rarely hear anything about THOSE traditions or practices being called "strange and barbaric".

Cutting up a dog that's been raised specifically for food is somehow to me, less of an issue than say, slimeball warlords and corrupt politicians in Africa and Asia stealing food that's meant for the starving masses and lining their own pockets with their ill-gotten gains. Your view may vary however.

Soba

[scottie]

I once had dog meat, as an appetizer, in China, but have never experienced the Korean boshintang. It was a school trip, very regimented, wherein we never had a say in where or what we were going to eat. Generally, we ate at pretty nice restaurants, as this trip was funded by the Chinese government and was meant to show off the wonders of Chinese culture to American students. We quit asking exactly what it was we were eating after about the second day.

Later in the trip, we had a meal which included a delicious cold meat appetizer; the meat looked like pork medallions, but much darker. It was quite rich and had the texture of pork. One of the chaperones later informed me it was dog; he told me not to tell anyone. I was in a phase of trying everything; there were kids on the trip who ate nothing but rice the whole time (they got terribly constipated). So I was pretty excited and felt that I was cool for having eaten something as taboo as dog. (I'm a girl, btw, not that gender has anything to do with it).

It remains my opinion that meat is meat, and one should not eat meat unless one feels comfortable with the idea of slaughtering the animal in question oneself. This is why I do not eat beef. However, I eat fowl, rabbit, venison, ostrich, lamb, buffalo and pork. Why do I feel more comfortable with the idea of killing these animals than cattle? I dunno. Maybe I just don't like beef. I've been vegetarian off and on my whole life; lately I have been adding more animals to my meat repertoire. I would eat dog again if the opportunity presented itself.

I agree that the suffering of the animal ought to be a consideration. I guess that's why I eat a lot of game, and try to stick to organically raised, "happy" animals.

As far as dogs are concerned, I see no reason why humans should project some kind of anthropomorphic feelings onto them, then point to that as a reason against eating them. People eat horses in much of the world. How different is that? How different is it for people to eat pigs? Pigs are every bit as intelligent and trainable as dogs, if not more so. People eat them because they are delicious.

BUT. I think there is some kind of line to be drawn, somewhere. Whales and dolphins should not be eaten, mostly because they are endangered and killing them in large numbers throws the ecosystem out of whack.

"Bushmeat," particularly from apes, is very popular in parts of Africa. Something about that seems wrong to me, in part because of the same endangered animal/screwed-up ecosystem thing, but also because the apes are like us.

Dogs are not like us, we only think they are after several millenia of living together. Neither are they in any danger of dying out. Killing dogs for food will not screw up any ecosystem more than the domestication of canines already has. Therefore, the only ethical concerns about eating dogmeat lie with the humane raising of all animals meant for food, canine or otherwise.

In Bali, dogs are considered pests. The wandering curs are easy meat for poor families, who are probably doing those dogs a favor by putting them out of their misery.

BTW, dogs are not carniverous. They are omnivores, scavengers. So are pigs. We feed pet dogs canned horsemeat, but dogs will eat just about anything. We feed pigs grain-based pig chow and kitchen scraps, but pigs will eat just about anything, including snakes and small mammals, as well as each other. Just so you know.

[jschyun]

<snip>

Dogs that are raised for boshing tang are not the same breed as those that have become a sort of fashion accessory to young women in Korea.  The dogs used typically for eating are large dogs of a particular breed whose English name escapes me at the moment, but in Korean it is "Jindo".

<snip>

Oh, and I was wondering if the poster mentioned she was a woman because dog is usually eaten by men to increase their sexual potency or is it because she feels women are not as likely to eat a cute fluffy, "doggy" and prefers to dine on the flesh of a dumb old cow.

<snip>

You hit the mark when you wondered if I don't eat dog because it is usually eaten by males to increase sexual potency. You are also right in saying that our food animals live in filthy, cramped conditions before being slaughtered. This isn't just in Korea; the USA has a very bad record.

They use Jindo dogs for boshing tang? I used to have a jindo dog...

Regardless of my feelings pro or con, I get a little irritated that Korea has been targeted with global scorn for the practice of eating dogs when American Southerners purportedly eat raccoons, squirrels, and skunks. The craze in the U.S. is now ostrich meat. I love dogs, I would never eat them personally, but I just don't understand why it's okay to eat one animal and not the other.

[trillium]

I don't know much about Korean dog eating, although I worked with a Korean guy who grew up on a dog "farm" and won't touch the stuff, but I do know something about "exotic" animal eating in south China, such as cats, dogs, monkey brains from living monkeys, etc. You get told that the more slowly they're killed the better they taste. I'm all for cultural differences in what animals a society chooses to eat, but I think the culture argument for being allowed to kill an animal in a way to bring about maximum suffering is total bullshit. That's not culture, it's testosterone poisoning.

regards,

trillium

[Chef Fowke]

I don't know much about Korean dog eating, although I worked with a Korean guy who grew up on a dog "farm" and won't touch the stuff, but I do know something about "exotic" animal eating in south China, such as cats, dogs, monkey brains from living monkeys, etc.  You get told that the more slowly they're killed the better they taste.  I'm all for cultural differences in what animals a society chooses to eat, but I think the culture argument for being allowed to kill an animal in a way to bring about maximum suffering is total bullshit.  That's not culture, it's testosterone poisoning. 

regards,

trillium

In reality, the more relaxed an animal is before you kill it the better it tastes. The best cattle in France are hand killed. The butcher walks into the field and slowly approaches the steer. He pets the animal and makes it feel comfortable before he quickly slits it throat. This reduces the release of hormones into the flesh and preserves the tenderness of the meats.

On a sidebar.... anyone who has gone tuna fishing can tell you of the 'high' you get from eating raw tuna right after it is caught. Because of the fight the meat is full of adrenaline...fun for the first ten minutes but your heart gets tired very quickly!

[wesza]

I don't know much about Korean dog eating, although I worked with a Korean guy who grew up on a dog "farm" and won't touch the stuff, but I do know something about "exotic" animal eating in south China, such as cats, dogs, monkey brains from living monkeys, etc.  You get told that the more slowly they're killed the better they taste.  I'm all for cultural differences in what animals a society chooses to eat, but I think the culture argument for being allowed to kill an animal in a way to bring about maximum suffering is total bullshit.  That's not culture, it's testosterone poisoning. 

regards,

trillium

In reality, the more relaxed an animal is before you kill it the better it tastes. The best cattle in France are hand killed. The butcher walks into the field and slowly approaches the steer. He pets the animal and makes it feel comfortable before he quickly slits it throat. This reduces the release of hormones into the flesh and preserves the tenderness of the meats.

On a sidebar.... anyone who has gone tuna fishing can tell you of the 'high' you get from eating raw tuna right after it is caught. Because of the fight the meat is full of adrenaline...fun for the first ten minutes but your heart gets tired very quickly!

This is true , but the actual thoughts and emotions reflecting,"Eating Dog Meat" were staged and set up, by a "Shock", Movie under the guise of being a Documentry by a french production compay, that showed "Dog's being prepared from Eating", in a graphic was intending sensationalism.

This Movie, one of a very successful series was called. "Mondo Caine", wouldn't be surprised if prints were available on E Bay. It was set up to show the Dogs being "tenderized", by being cruely beaten with sticks. This is something that is abborant to any Asian Culture who has traditionaly eaten dog. This information is available should anyone wish to research the topic.

In fact in the Phillipines and Indonesia they breed dogs, for this purpose and treated them with care, only wanting then to grow chubby, prior to being utilized in as they felt a kindly manner.

I don't advocate this, but it's bad enough without being sensationalized for whatever reason. Irwin

[jschyun]

interesting article in defense of dog eating

Defending Dog Eating

[sparrowgrass]

"Regardless of my feelings pro or con, I get a little irritated that Korea has been targeted with global scorn for the practice of eating dogs when American Southerners purportedly eat raccoons, squirrels, and skunks. The craze in the U.S. is now ostrich meat. I love dogs, I would never eat them personally, but I just don't understand why it's okay to eat one animal and not the other. "

Dang it, don't nobody round here eat skunks!!

[Mayhaw Man]

American Southerners purportedly eat raccoons, squirrels, and skunks.

Squirrels-You bet. Tasty little critters and fund to hunt. Bring 'em on

Coons- I don't, but there are people that seem to like them

Skunks-No one I have ever heard of eats skunks. I am sure it has happened to some starving denizen of the rural south, but it is not common. Yuck.

I suppose I would eat dog if I had the opportunity, but I don't think I would seek any out for dining purposes. As I write this I have a goofy yellow lab sleeping at my feet and I am afraid I would picture him as I was preparing to clean my plate. I certainly understand that in cultures where a certain animal is not a domestic pet that it could be considered a foodstuff and I support their right to treat dogs as such, but I don't think that dog is something that I will ever actively seek out.

[chengb02]

Eating dog is illegal in South Korea, although it still goes on. In an article on Dog Cuisine before the last World Cup there was an interview with S. Korea's most famous Tang chef who poured scorn on Western "sentimentality" towards dogs: "People in the West say dogs are loyal, brave, faithful etc. They are nothing of the kind. They only want you to THINK that they are loyal, brave, faithful etc so that you won't eat them" .

Now that's what I call a culture clash.

I know before the World Cup there were a number of articles about Koreans eating dog. I saw one that went into the description of how they were killed for optimum tenderness and it seemed more than a little wrong. Not sure if it was true or not, though. I know dog is not unusual in Korea and Vietnam. I've run into in China, especially in the northeast where it is typically eaten in the winter as a soup, for its warming qualities, and I've had it served as such. In poorer regions of China, I also am aware of dog hotpots...