Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop Cookware

[slkinsey]

The second downside - I placed a 6 quart (long handle) saucepan in a long slow oven - 4 hours or so - and when I took it out, the varnish on the iron handle had discoloured, and cracked in places. Some rust spots have now appeared. So - not quite sturdy as I'd imagined.

Um... Moby? You're supposed to take the varnish off the handle (as well as the copper) before you start using the pan. Just rub some oil on the handle the next time you have it in the oven and it will build up a rust-proof "seasoning."

[Sandra Levine]

I had to scrub my Falk Culainair saucier...and when I was finished, not only had the gunk come off, but also, it looks like, the copper as well! Where I had scrubbed, there is now a large, pale, stainless-steel colored spot. What gives? I bought the pot on-line, directly from the manufacturer. It's supposed to be 2.5mm copper, stainless-lined.

Edited April 4, 2004 by Sandra Levine (log)

[slkinsey]

That seems very odd. Could you provide a picture?

A few questions: What did you scrub it with? And does it look like you might have scrubbed away >2 mm of copper (i.e., is there a dent in the copper)?

[mnebergall]

And what did you scrub with?

edited to ad a ? after the "with."

Edited April 4, 2004 by mnebergall (log)

[MobyP]

Um... Moby? You're supposed to take the varnish off the handle (as well as the copper) before you start using the pan. Just rub some oil on the handle the next time you have it in the oven and it will build up a rust-proof "seasoning."

Waitasecond - are you saying that today is Moby dumbass day? I could've sworn it was tomorrow. Thanks Sam.

MobyP-

I live in Chicago and have wanted to visit Villedieu and buy more cookware and tour the war monuments and the Calvados distilleries for years.

May I ask, if you don't mind, what size sauteuse evasee pans you bought and use most often? Would you recommend the trip to the copper factories, both as en enjoyable escape, and as a fun way to buy copper cookware if one was thinking of buying some?

I would add that many people couldn't use the 11 inch Mauviel saute, it's so heavy, even when empty. I'd prefer a rolled edge, and no pan is more in need of a helper handle. It's truly a weapon.

I'd love to hear any additional recollections you have, of visiting the manufacturer, because I've found no such information on the Internet, other than comments from many people who enjoyed visiting Normandy and who found the area to be less touristy and more interesting than the Cote D'Azur.

Thank you most kindly.

Sorry gkg680 - I missed this. I only bought the largest - 9" I think, but Sam will know - Sautee Evasee. I prefer the 11" Bourgeat for shape and capacity, but haven't been able to afford one. Does Falk do something similar? The mauviel is phenomenal - as Sam noted - for reductions - feels at least 50% faster at evaporation than the closest competition.

The factory trip was fantastic. The problem with the town - which has 8 or 10 shops which sell both hand made and factory made pans - is that the shopkeepers haggle like professional wrestlers. This was a bit too much for me, and found the factory much calmer. It's a long building at the edge of town, and you have to go to the office to get someone to come and open the shop. Coming from America, everything was about a third of the price.

The advantage of the town is that I was offered a couple of interesting pieces - like a 3mm sauteuse - that I didn't find elsewere. If it wasn't for the haggling, I would've bought it.

I agree about the 11" saute pan - it's brutal to lift. I tend only to pull it out for really high temp stuff. Hope this helps.

[slkinsey]

Um... Moby?  You're supposed to take the varnish off the handle (as well as the copper) before you start using the pan.  Just rub some oil on the handle the next time you have it in the oven and it will build up a rust-proof "seasoning."

Waitasecond - are you saying that today is Moby dumbass day? I could've sworn it was tomorrow.

Dude... isn't that every day?

I only bought the largest - 9" I think, but Sam will know - Sautee Evasee. I prefer the 11" Bourgeat for shape and capacity, but haven't been able to afford one. Does Falk do something similar? The mauviel is phenomenal - as Sam noted - for reductions - feels at least 50% faster at evaporation than the closest competition.

The 9.5 inch sauteuse evasee is the largest Mauviel does, AFAIK. They also don't seem to make a curved sauteuse evasee in 2.5 mm. Both Bourgeat and Falk Culinair do make a curved sauteuse evasee up to 11 inches. My Falk Culinair 11 inch curved sauteuse evasee is the most used pan in the kitchen. According to this page, Falk also seems to make a regular, straight-sided sauteuse evasee at 11 inches (28 cm).

I agree about the 11" saute pan - it's brutal to lift. I tend only to pull it out for really high temp stuff. Hope this helps.

Almost any 11 inch saute pan worth having is going to be pretty heavy, especially when filled with ingredients. Ultimately, you shouldn't have to lift it into the air all that often. Just shake it back and forth over the heat and let design work for you. "Flipping" the food is definitely a two-handed enterprise.

[lorea]

Speaking of copper...is there a reason why Falk, Bourgeat, & Mauviel don't make stainless steel handles on their 2.5mm lines (as opposed to most other major cookware manufacturers)? I emailed Falk about this and the representative responded back, saying that using stainless steel handles are too cost prohibitive. I don't understand though....why would it be cost prohibitive to put it on a copper pan rather than...say, an All-Clad pan? If those manufacturers used stay-cool stainless steel handles (read: low-maintenance handles) on 2.5mm cookware, I would buy that line in an instant.

And do the cast iron handles get hot during normal stovetop use?

They also rust if not dried, I'm assuming?

[MobyP]

Sam - could you tell me how much the 11" Falk and Bourgeat pans go for in the US? And what's the most inexpensive route you've found?

I'm heading off to France for a few days so I thought I'd keep my eye out.

You know, we need a cookware anonymous section in this place. Not that I have too much stuff! It's just - you know - I bet there are - well - people - people who need people - who maybe have slightly more than they need. Allegedly. No? Anyway...

[Sandra Levine]

That seems very odd. Could you provide a picture?

A few questions: What did you scrub it with? And does it look like you might have scrubbed away >2 mm of copper (i.e., is there a dent in the copper)?

I used a regular steel-wool pad, and didn't scrub very hard. There was just one little patch that needed a bit of extra attention. That patch is now silvery. There are no sharp demarcations between the silver color and the copper. There is no indentation. I don't have a digital camera, so I can't provide a picture.

[gkg680]

Moby-

I wanted to thank you for your remarks about Villedieu. I'd like to go sometime, but I've only been to Paris twice, and there's so much to see, it's hard to catch a train or tour bus and leave the city.

Given that the only other copper pieces I'd like, are a curved sauteuse evasee that we've discussed, and a couple of other things, I should just go to Dehillerin, I suppose. Many of us, I think, share your distaste for haggling with shopkeepers about prices.

Have a safe and enjoyable trip to France, let us know how you fare.

Best wishes,

Greg in Chicago

[natasha1270]

Currently, I have pots from the Hackman Tools line, which I really like and Lodge Cast Iron griddle/grill and fry pans. The iron is really great but sometimes I don’t want to do all the weightlifting associated with them and have been looking at some nice, non-stick frypans. So far, I am leaning towards Swiss Diamond brand (10 mm). Does anyone have any experience with their pans? Any thoughts?

Here is a blurb from cutlery.com:

Swiss Diamond 10MM Eleven Inch Non-Stick Frypan

Real Diamond Crystals Create A Virtually Inderstructible Non-Stick Surface

This cookware by Swiss Diamond features a non-stick surface that is far more cut-, chip- and abrasion- resistant than anything else out there. It combines real diamond crystals with a non-stick composite to create a virtually indestructible cooking surface. The composite gets fused to the pan, rather than layered on, as with most other non-stick surfaces. Swiss Diamond invented this technology and is the only cookware manufacturer that uses it.

But it is not just the non-stick coating which makes these pans so incredible. The pans also provide outstanding heat distribution. They are made from hand-cast aluminum that is 10-mm thick and because diamonds conduct heat (even better than copper), the coating contributes to the pans' performance.

The reinforced edges offer a high level of shock resistance. The comfortable stay-cool handles are engineered for good balance, have finger and thumb grips and are heat resistant in the oven up to 450 deg. F. Cast brass threaded inserts ensure that the handles are firmly attached.

The interior pan color is a steel gray rather than the more traditional black, which allows better visibility of what's going on in the pan - helpful when you're caramelizing pan juices.

This Swiss Diamond Frypan measures 11" in diameter by 1.5" high.

Also, someone previously mentioned they had “cracked” the seasoning on their cast iron. I have a pan similarly afflicted on the exterior and bottom. Athough it looks terrible, it still works like a charm.

Many thanks,

Natasha

[slkinsey]

I see I've been falling down on the job and letting some questions pile up. Sorry about that. So...

Speaking of copper...is there a reason why Falk, Bourgeat, & Mauviel don't make stainless steel handles on their 2.5mm lines (as opposed to most other major cookware manufacturers)?

Lorea, the main reason is that the handles on heavy copper cookware must be solid in order to properly balance the pan. The "stay-cool" handles you're talking about are thin strips of metal bent into a shape. Not only would these handles be insufficiently heavy to balance the pans, which would make them awkward to pick up and move around, but it's unlikely that a thin metal tube or "V-handle" would be able to withstand the repeated stress put on it when the pans were lifted by the handle. Eventually the handle would start to bend. Y0ou have to keep in mind that a heavy copper pan is a lot, well... heavier than the aluminum-based pans from most other major cookware manufacturers.

As for making solid metal handles of stainless steel as opposed to iron, there are two good reasons to do this. First, as you point out, stainless steel is nonreactive and won't rust. Second, stainless steel has crappy thermal properties and therefore it will take longer for the handle to heat up. On the other hand, the solid handle on an eleven inch saute pan takes a lot of metal. Stainless steel is signifciantly more expensive to use than iron.

As it turns out, at lease one manufacturer does produce copper cookware with stainless steel handles. As detailed upthread, Mauviel has a 2.0 mm stainless lines copper line with stainless handles. However, this line is actually more expensive than the 2.5 mm stainless lined copper line. An easy way to figure out the cost of the stainless handle is to compare the 2.0 mm stainless handle line with the 2.0 iron handle line, since the body of the pan is the same. A 2.0 mm eleven inch frypan with a stainless handle has a full retail price of $240 and a typical sale price of $192. The same frypan with an iron handle has a full retail price of $180 and a typical sale price of $148. A 44 to 60 dollar difference just for the metal used in the handle! In my book, that's "prohibitively expensive."

And do the cast iron handles get hot during normal stovetop use?

Depends on how they're used, but yea, they'll heat up. I've never experienced any handle that wouldn't heat up when the pan is used over high heat for a sufficiently long period of time. The thing to consider here is that these handles are designed for professional use (in/out of oven/salamander, etc.), and I'd never touch the handle of any pan in a professional kitchen without using a towel.

They also rust if not dried, I'm assuming?

Um... maybe? I don't know, as I wipe down all my cookware when I finish cleaning it. As mentioned upthread, the thing to do is "season" the handle with a little oil. I've never been worried.

[slkinsey]

That seems very odd.  Could you provide a picture?

A few questions: What did you scrub it with?  And does it look like you might have scrubbed away >2 mm of copper (i.e., is there a dent in the copper)?

I used a regular steel-wool pad, and didn't scrub very hard. There was just one little patch that needed a bit of extra attention. That patch is now silvery. There are no sharp demarcations between the silver color and the copper. There is no indentation. I don't have a digital camera, so I can't provide a picture.

It's not the stainless, then. Perhaps it's from the steel scrubbing pad? Try scrubbing the pan all over with Bar Keeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad.

[slkinsey]

Currently, I have pots from the Hackman Tools line, which I really like and Lodge Cast Iron griddle/grill and fry pans. The iron is really great but sometimes I don’t want to do all the weightlifting associated with them and have been looking at some nice, non-stick frypans. So far, I am leaning towards Swiss Diamond brand (10 mm). Does anyone have any experience with their pans? Any thoughts?

My first thought is that there is only so "nice" a nonstick pan can be. Untimately, they're never going to be all that nice compared to a piece of quality cookware built to last. And all nonstick has a finite lifetime, since the coating will eventually wear off/out.

I'll tell you what, though... I like the thickness of the aluminum, nothing would make me spend >100 bucks on an eleven inch nonstick frypan with plastic handles.

[rbm]

I recently bought a couple Paderno Curved Sauteuse Evasées. I had a small accident with one of them where some food scorched to the bottom and slightly up the sides of the pan. Soaking and scrubbing by hand with a steel wool pad did not clean the pan so I resorted to my last alternative -- a scotchbrite pad in an electric drill using lots and lots of mineral oil as a lubricant. I proceeded slowly, stopping when the scorched food residue was removed. The pan came clean however I think the characteristics of the pan have changed from new. I now notice that food tends to react and stick more than before.

Has my cleaning removed some sort of factory applied non-stick coating to the pan that I am not aware of?

Should I "season" stainless steel in the same spirit that one seasons a cast iron pan?

[Sandra Levine]

Try scrubbing the pan all over with Bar Keeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad.

I will try this and report back.

[wrevans]

Sam,

Wow. This has been the most informative read on cookware that I have seen. Thanks for the great job.

I am getting ready to update my old set of Calphalon and I have experience everything that has been mentioned about them. The do warp and buying sets can be an expensive way to buy pans that you rarely or never use.

My first new pan is looking to be a Falk 11 inch 4.5 quart Sauté Pan or Sauteuse Evasee. I am leaning towards the Sauté pan due to its larger bottom and the helper handle, which I have found very useful in the past. A sauté pan was the most useful pan we had at the last restaurant where I worked so I am looking for a jack of all trade pans. I would like to sauté, making curries and sauces and do some braising (especially lamb shanks). I know you have mentioned the relative merits of these two pans before but would you mind comparing and contrasting once again?

One other question if I may. I enjoyed reading your definition of Sauté pans and how they are used. But there have been many instances where I have sautéed in a frying pan where you shake and toss the food. I do not recall you mentioning this type of cooking but I have seen it on food shows and in open kitchens. I have found it invaluable when sautéing onions, mushrooms etc or toasting seeds and nuts. Can you clarify the difference between this method and sautéing for me?

Thanks,

Bill

[slkinsey]

My first new pan is looking to be a Falk 11 inch 4.5 quart Sauté Pan or Sauteuse Evasee.  I am leaning towards the Sauté pan due to its larger bottom and the helper handle, which I have found very useful in the past.  A sauté pan was the most useful pan we had at the last restaurant where I worked so I am looking for a jack of all trade pans.  I would like to sauté, making curries and sauces and do some braising (especially lamb shanks).  I know you have mentioned the relative merits of these two pans before but would you mind comparing and contrasting once again?

The main thing is that the sauteuse evasée has taller sides and a curved transition from the base up to the sides. This, in my opinion, gives it an advantage for cooking applications involving liquids, such as the curries and braises you mention (especially the lamb shanks), and also for things like finishing pasta together with the sauce. I just think it's easier to work with a pan that has slightly higher sides in these cases, and the rounded edges make it a better performer in terms of sauces because it's easier to get a spoon into every corner of the pan.

The sauté pan, of course, has certain advantages when it comes to sautéing (i.e., direct heat transfer from the cooking surface to the food through a thin layer of fat) due to the larger surface area.

Fundamentally, though, they're pretty close. It's a matter of which pan you're most comfortable with and which design fits the dishes you would like to prepare. There's no right and wrong here, especially for someone with experience. For the things you say you would like to do, I would personally go with the sauteuse evasée. But, if you're used to using a sauté pan and prefer that, then you should go with a sauté pan.

One other question if I may.  I enjoyed reading your definition of Sauté pans and how they are used.  But there have been many instances where I have sautéed in a frying pan where you shake and toss the food.  I do not recall you mentioning this type of cooking but I have seen it on food shows and in open kitchens.  I have found it invaluable when sautéing onions, mushrooms etc or toasting seeds and nuts.  Can you clarify the difference between this method and sautéing for me?

Yea. A lot of kitchens use an all purpose deep frypan, usually in aluminum. In a frying pan, I find that one often has to "flip" the ingredients, or they will simply slide out the back side when you shake the pan. They both work. One is simply more difficult to do from a technical standpoint (the flipping with a frypan technique). You're much more likely to flip your mushrooms out of the pan using a frypan than you are a sauté pan. Sometimes, if the ingredients are wet and/or tend to stick together, or if the pan is carrying more food than it really should (a frequent error) the only thing you can use is the flip technique. I still think it's easier to do in a sauté pan, though.

[slkinsey]

I recently bought a couple Paderno Curved Sauteuse Evasées. I had a small accident with one of them where some food scorched to the bottom and slightly up the sides of the pan. Soaking and scrubbing by hand with a steel wool pad did not clean the pan so I resorted to my last alternative -- a scotchbrite pad in an electric drill using lots and lots of mineral oil as a lubricant. I proceeded slowly, stopping when the scorched food residue was removed. The pan came clean however I think the characteristics of the pan have changed from new. I now notice that food tends to react and stick more than before.

Has my cleaning removed some sort of factory applied non-stick coating to the pan that I am not aware of?

Should I "season" stainless steel in the same spirit that one seasons a cast iron pan?

Hmmm... that's pretty rough treatment for a pan. You probably changed the texture of the metal on the inside of the pan and made rougher, which would tend to lead to more sticking. As for the food reacting more, that's impossible unless you scraped away part of the stainless steel all the way down to the aluminum base (very unlikely). Stainless steel is nonreactive. It doesn't need to be, nor does it benefit from seasoning.

Wish I could be more encouraging, but I think you screwed up the pan using that drill.

[wrevans]

Sam,

Thanks so much for the info. I agree that the fry pan flip technique is an acquired skill. I learned with vegetable scraps over the waste can and I will still get carried away occasionally and find myself with some stovetop cleaning.

Just a couple more questions before I hit the ship button. Do you have a preference between the Falk, Bourgeat, & Mauviel lines?

I just found this Bourgeat Sauté Pan on Pampered Chef. They claim that Bourgeat is 1/8 inch copper bonded to 1/8 inch 10 18 stainless. Can this be right? That would be just over 3mm of copper and stainless. I would think that this thickness of stainless would start to get in the way of the heat properties of the copper.

Their 11 inch sauté pan is interesting. It is 5 ¼ quarts with and 3 inches high. What a monster if their thickness is accurate.

Thanks again,

Bill

[gkg680]

Bill-

Just a few comments that I thought might be helpful to you. I'm an amateur, but I share your enthusiasm for this website. For example, I thought I knew about making stocks. The online Egullet stock pages had so much valuable information, same with the other specialized instructional pages.

I, too, have a set of Calphalon that disappoints. Food is hard to clean off, they warp, the saucepans, except for a small Windsor pan, don't have a lip. Every time I pour something, it dribbles. I even bought a Calphalon wok, which never gets hot, although part of the problem is that my heat source is electric.

Recently, I bought the 11 inch Mauviel saute pan by mail from the factory in France, at artcopperware.com, and it's wonderful. I measured the capacity carefully, it holds almost 6 quarts. A cm is .3937 inches, so 2.5 mm of copper comes out to .098 inches, roughly 1/10 of an inch. I'm not sure how thick the stainless layer is, but the pan, as you say, is a monster. You need two hands, definitely, and I would discourage anyone from buying this pan without holding one in the store first.

My problem in Chicago is that Sur La Table is the only store that carries any significant inventory of copperware. A chef recently opened a cookware store in Evanston, near Chicago, and he carries Bourgeat, but he has very little inventory, and he'll have trouble surviving.

I would love to look at a Falk or Bourgeat large curved sauteuse evasee, but I can't find one. The manufacturers are coming out with more lines of copperware that is not commercial-grade thickness, and it's misleading.

I liked the idea of buying from the factory, and artcopperware charges only 106 Euros for the 11 inch Mauviel saute, but shipping brought the cost up to $201. I can't imagine anyone wanting to return one of these pans, but it'd be a hornet's nest to do that by mail, especially overseas.

I have nothing to compare my pan with, but I can say that I love the Mauviel. It's a Rolls-Royce, truly. It doesn't have a curved edge like the Bourgeat, but that's more of an issue with a saucepan, than with a saute pan. It's not only functional, it's a thing of beauty, and I don't even mind cleaning it.

Sam Kinsey is the guy to advise you on this, but let us know how you fare and what you decide. It's very exciting when you open the box and see that beautiful pan. Best wishes.

Greg in Chicago

[slkinsey]

Just a couple more questions before I hit the ship button.  Do you have a preference between the Falk, Bourgeat, & Mauviel lines?

I prefer Falk Culinair for several reasons: 1. I think their American distributors are great people. I have always enjoyed doing business with them, and would like to give them more of my business. Having relationships with people who believe in their product and stand behind it is important. 2. I like the fact that they have a brushed finish rather than a mirror finish. This means I can easily keep my copper looking great using nothing more than Bark Keeper's Friend and a Scotch Brite pad. 3. The price of stainless lined heavy copper has come down significantly over the past five years. An eleven inch Bourgeat sauteuse evasée that used to list for 580 dollars and sell for 410 at deep discount (if you were lucky) now sells for around 270. This is largely due (I think) to Falk's rationalization of the copper cookware market with their reasonable prices. Falk's eleven inch sauteuse evasée sells for around $235.

From a pure performance standpoint, however, it's a wash. They're all exactly the same.

I just found this Bourgeat Sauté Pan on Pampered Chef.  They claim that Bourgeat is 1/8 inch copper bonded to 1/8 inch 10 18 stainless.  Can this be right?  That would be just over 3mm of copper and stainless.  I would think that this thickness of stainless would start to get in the way of the heat properties of the copper.

This is bullshit, and these people clearly don't know what the hell they're talking about. First of all, Falk Culinair makes all the stainless/copper bimetal used by Bourgeat and Mauviel (they invented/patented the process). The thick gauge is 2.5 mm thick. Second, you are correct that no one would want 1/8 inch of stainless bonded to copper, as it would ruin any of the thermal properties of the copper. Third, I doubt very much that it is technically possible to bond 1/8 inch of steel to 1/8 inch of copper and form it into a piece of straight gauge cookware. Finally, 1/8 inch of copper bonded to 1/8 inch of stainless would give an overall thickness of 6.36 millimeters. No way.

Their 11 inch sauté pan is interesting.  It is 5 ¼ quarts with and 3 inches high.  What a monster if their thickness is accurate.

As detailed above, that site's thickness claim is completely bogus. Bourgeat's stainless lined copper is no thicker than Falk's or Mauviel's. As for the sauté pan, Bourgeat's eleven inch sauté pan has sides that are a little higher than the standard height of ~2.8 inches. It's up to you to decide if that's something you would like to have. Bourgeat certainly makes a good sauté pan.

[wrevans]

Sam,

Thanks again. I appreciate you passion, conviction and knowledge. I have a Falk 4.5 quart sauteuse evasée on the way.

Bill

[rbm]

Hmmm... that's pretty rough treatment for a pan.

Yea, I really didn't have much of a choice. I tried just about eveything short of abrading the surface to clean the pan but just couldn't clean the carbonizing off. The drill atachment was a very fine Scotchbrite so any damage was minimal.

Wish I could be more encouraging, but I think you screwed up the pan using that drill.

Yes, possible. If so, I can use the pan for less demanding work. Oh well, live and learn. Tremendous thanks for the help, Sam.

[lorea]

Hi Sam,

In terms of food sticking, would a polished stainless interior be more food stick-resistant than a brushed stainless steel interior? I noticed a lot of cookware advertise one or the other, and was wondering what the real difference was. Are there any other considerations when choosing between polished vs. brushed interiors?

Thanks for all of your assistance!