Are cooks underpaid?

[Fat Guy]

This has come up on several topics as a tangential discussion, I thought we might benefit from hashing it out in one place.

The complaint is that in too many restaurants line-cooks in restaurants are underpaid, get no health insurance, etc.

No doubt, many line-cooks in professional kitchens are paid less than many eGulleters are comfortable with.

At the same time, what are the alternatives? In order to pay them more, consumer prices would have to increase. In addition, for the market to support that increase in pay and price, there would have to be a labor shortage, i.e., fewer cooks. Either that, or there would have to be regulations (over and above the minimum wage regulations and all the other regulations governing treatment of employees) specifying the "right" salary for a line-cook.

Also, what level of skill does a line-cook possess? How does it compare to that of people in other jobs making more, less, or the same money? Further to that comparison, are there long-term/short-term contrasts that make low pay more understandable, e.g., training in exchange for low pay (effectively an internship), long-term potential benefits that make low pay the entry-fee to the profession, and so on?

[tommy]

i predict that this will get ugly.

it seems that you can teach just about anyone who has a fair amount of sense, organization, discipline, and cooking knowledge, how to cook in a kitchen environment. assuming that's the case, i don't know that those folks are "underpaid". however, the lack of health insurance in this industry, and indeed in the US in general, is troubling.

[Rail Paul]

Everybody I know who's not represented by a union makes that decision evey morning. Do I go to work, or do I seek a new job? Many of us do both. If you don't know what you're worth to another informed buyer, how do you negotiate a raise or new skill?

My firm just paid a specialist for what was at most a week's work by one person. We absolutely got our money's worth in improved process and lower costs, even though their hourly rate was $600. Expensive? Sure. Worth it? Yup.

Chefs are free to find new employment, nobody's forcing them to work 60 hours a week. That's how free markets work. Managers make these decisions all the time, what will it take to keep this person on board? If he leaves, can we replace him?

Alex Lee leaves Daniel for a new job, making a judgement on pay, benefits, travel, growth, stress. Four guys want his job at Daniel, one gets it. That's three other guys who either shop for a better deal or go to work on Monday morning and put up with it.

[Fat Guy]

Certainly, from the standpoint of basic market economics, nobody is underpaid (unless you count prisoners, professional athletes subject to a salary cap, and other exceptions-that-prove-the-rule). So when people say cooks are underpaid, they're talking about something else. I'd like to try to figure out what that something else is, and if it makes sense. And -- as a preemptive matter -- it would be great to be able to do that while keeping the tangential political stuff (the larger debates about labor, health care, etc.) in check to whatever extent possible.

[Rail Paul]

The prep cooks in our local (insert supermarket chain name here) catering unit make about $13-16 an hour based on seniority, with benefits, plus overtime, I'm told. They're in the meat-cutters union.

Work virtually every weekend, have interaction with the catering manager and customers. The two guys with whom I've become friendly used to work in restaurants and jumped at this opportunity.

It's like journalism or TV news. The supply of eager wanna-be's and illegals will always keep down wages for most people with little experience or demonstrated skills. You follow the formula Emeril laid down and do it 100 times a night, make no changes. Innovate on that recipe, and you're fired.

Edited July 5, 2003 by Rail Paul (log)

[Lesley C]

You know who's really underpaid? Food writers. And that leads to all kinds of corruption.

I made a lot more when I was working as a chef.

It's interesting to note that pastry chefs usually have better starting salaries than cooks. My starting salary in a pastry shop back in the 90s was $11/hour, whereas a few of my cooking friends working in the city's best restaurants were making no more than $8.

I wonder if this still holds true?

[fresco]

"You know who's really underpaid? Food writers. And that leads to all kinds of corruption"

There certainly seems to be a widespread assumption that many food writers, if not actively on the take, are not opposed to eating on the house. I'd feel a lot better about restaurant reviews if publications would regularly or periodically publish their reviewing does and don'ts.

One aspect of the hazards of reviewing was debated in the Reviewing While Impaired thread, but I do believe that the most common impairment for reviewers is ethical, not ethyl, in nature.

Edited July 5, 2003 by fresco (log)

[Katherine]

Certainly, from the standpoint of basic market economics, nobody is underpaid (unless you count prisoners, professional athletes subject to a salary cap, and other exceptions-that-prove-the-rule). So when people say cooks are underpaid, they're talking about something else. I'd like to try to figure out what that something else is, and if it makes sense. And -- as a preemptive matter -- it would be great to be able to do that while keeping the tangential political stuff (the larger debates about labor, health care, etc.) in check to whatever extent possible.

Almost impossible to do, because the benefits that come with a job (or lack thereof) are a major factor in whether an employee feels valued or exploited. Switching to a job that provides sick days, vacation pay, health insurance, professional development, and retirement at the same pay scale would be like getting a huge raise in pay.

On the other hand, agencies do have various ways of calculating the cost of living in an area to define the living wage there. Around here, a typical kitchen worker earns much less than that.

Not to mention the fact that most people, regardless of how much they are making, think everything would be fine and dandy if they were making 35% more.

[jersey13]

You know who's really underpaid?  Food writers. And that leads to all kinds of corruption.

I made a hell of lot more when I was working as a chef.

Did you know that going in? If so , why the switch?

As an employee of a major newspaper, do you not get benefits that you would not get as a chef (assuming you didn't work in a unionized environment)?

Edited July 5, 2003 by jersey13 (log)

[Lesley C]

A savvy chef can make good money. We aren't talking lawyer salaries here, just a good living. Not that you'll have much time to lead your life...

If you have the energy to do extras, you can always find some caterer on the side who is willing to pay you under the table. Good salary, plus cash on the side or the occasional teaching gig and you'll make a few bucks.

[jersey13]

So in other words, if you're willing to freelance, life is just jim-dandy.

[malachi]

Chefs (short of the top-tier) make "good money" (as you say) in the abstract. Then there is the unfortunate day when you do the math and determine your hourly pay (as opposed to your salary). The abstract becomes less valuable at that point.

I think far fewer cooks would complain about their income if:

1) there were better benefits available to them (not just health insurance, but nice things like vacations and sick days, and 401ks, etc.), and/or

2) the hours were more managable vis a vis work/life balance, and/or

3) wait staff were not allowed to count tips in front of back of the house staff.

[beans]

3) wait staff were not allowed to count tips in front of back of the house staff.

That is a fireable offense where I work. It demonstrates an utter lack of respect. I wholeheartedly agree too.

[Malawry]

I don't view the low pay as so much the issue as low pay combined with lack of benefits. Sick leave is an especially needed benefit along with health insurance; the fact that people can't get paid when they are sick is of course going to lead to sick people coming in, handling food, and selling it to the customer. Even with all the handwashing and other sanitation procedures it's scary to think about. Lots of people who work kitchen jobs live paycheck-to-paycheck on those low wages, and missing a day because you feel ill or, worse still, need to see a doctor without insurance can mean the difference between paying rent plus groceries or having to choose one over the other.

I'd like to hear about sick leave and pay concerns impact kitchen workers in countries outside the US, particularly those with socialized health care.

[jersey13]

I don't know if chefs in Quebec get the health insurance that the pen pushers do, but we do have somethinbg called medicare which covers doctors/hospital visits regardless of profession. There is also a provincial drug insurance plan that can be helpful with medications.

Generally if a person earns X amount and the benefit package that comes with a job is considered added value in lieu of money.The trick is to find a job with a big X factor. Another consideration is who pays for the benefits. In nicer companies, they pick up the tab. If you have to have it deducted from your salary, then it's another story. These deductions can be steep.

It would make sense for chefs to have a good benefits package especially since it is basically a physical job which is bound to make a difference in actual illnesses. (never mind the fact that they end up working anyway, as you have indicated) Most manual labour jobs in these parts carry kick-ass benefits, particularly in unionized environments.

[Peter B Wolf]

Well, I am retired now (Dec ’99) after 48 years in the ‘business’.

No, ‘I never sold Bibles’ or ‘Pump Gas’. Was never out of a job, except when I took time out between working and looking. Usually looked while still working. Got fired once because of a ‘canny’ remark to the Manager. But believe it: with two weeks ‘severance pay’. I guess he liked me.

Early years were often just up to or a bit over one year. I always felt, the entire learning one could get at one place, should be gotten in one single year. And then everything else became repetitious.

I also belonged to Unions in the earlier years, as many of the places where Union Shops, but I found out Unions were not getting me the pay I could demand, and nearly all the time I received it. I suppose my European training as cooks apprentice helped with that. Must say that was in the sixties and seventies.

More than once was I approached to take a job offer. At times I even declined.

I once quit after one week, because they started charging me for my meals. I told them I could eat more; they not noticing then they could ever charge me. Especially high cost items. By the way, I never did indulge in those expensive items, and I think whole heartedly most chefs do neither. Always satisfied with just a bit of this and a bit of that. With all the tasting needed constantly, one got filled up.

Now to the tricky, and it is tricky, question. Do cooks/chefs get paid enough? Maybe not in some others’ opinion. In my opinion, the ones that deserve to get paid well will.

But one must first differentiate between cooks/chefs that ‘cook’ and others that are so called ‘food preparation workers’ as many ‘line-cooks’ are. Look around; more importantly ask around, how many of these people actually seeing there jobs as a career to be in. I mean to be a cook, wanting to be a cook, love to cook and not only look at it as a job. Which by the way many only look at as temporary. I have yet to meet a ‘cook’ in his early or mid twenties, who says he wants to do this (cooking), all his life and for the rest of his life. And the few that do, ok so I did not meet everyone, will get their pay and will move on and up, and/or diversify, but stay in the Hospitality Industry. And that’s where that “LOVE” gets in!!

Employers tend to recognize talent and promote.

To quote Tommy and I respect his views:

“It seems that you can teach just about anyone who has a fair amount of sense, organization, discipline, and cooking knowledge, how to cook in a kitchen environment. “

This is not true, many of our esteemed chef members will testify to that. “Cooking” is not ‘jobbing’, “Cooking” is ‘wanting to’!!

Katherine you can’t compare: ‘Kitchen workers’ with ‘cooks’

“On the other hand, agencies do have various ways of calculating the cost of living in an area to define the living wage there. Around here, a typical kitchen worker earns much less than that. “

Jersey13: Nothing ever will be ‘Jim Dandy’.

So, did I get paid well, I think so. First of all I choose my places of work. Second, I rather worked at times for less money then I could have gotten elsewhere, but the ‘environment’ was healthy and the awards were gratification. Other jobs allowed me to travel, which is one of my all time desires; I wish I could do more of yet.

I also ‘fell’ into a position (well applied for it) where I was able to teach/instruct. And that was not only ‘cooking’, but the whole business of menu making, purchasing, quality and cost control. Did that pay well? Yes, and it showed me the world. Things like that can not be enumerated in Dollars.

When I was in the position(s) of hiring and firing, I never hired a person for the job at stake, if his second question in an interview was “How much does the job pay?”

Seldom would I hire a worker if on their application was “money” as the answer to ‘reason for leaving’.

Would I ever today go into the ‘Business’ again, if young again but with all the know-how I have today? Yes, a resounding YES.

Thanks for listening.

[Katherine]

Now to the tricky, and it is tricky, question. Do cooks/chefs get paid enough? Maybe not in some others’ opinion. In my opinion, the ones that deserve to get paid well will...

Katherine you can’t compare: ‘Kitchen workers’ with ‘cooks’

“On the other hand, agencies do have various ways of calculating the cost of living in an area to define the living wage there. Around here, a typical kitchen worker earns much less than that. “

If what you're saying is that chefs deserve a living wage with benefits, and none of the other people working in a kitchen do, I'm disagreeing with you.

It's the whole crew, not just the chef that produces food in a restaurant. There is a fine line between the different levels of employees in a kitchen. Cheap labor is the only thing that keeps most restaurants going.

I believe in the concept of the living wage, that people who work full-time should be earning enough to live on. If you don't, then we disagree.

[tommy]

it might be important to acknowledge that a lot of "white collar" salaried employees in all types of businesses work much more than 40 hours a week, often from home, on the road, using blackberry, making/receiving phone calls, with little or no extra compensation. the restaurant industry is not completely unique, as much as people in it would like to think it is.

[Cheffie3]

I'm sure I'll get attacked for this comment but, I've always felt that the waitstaff should split their tips with the cooks/chef/busboy. Although I always give the customary 15 to 20%, I don't see why they should make $30 plus an hour (assuming 5 tables an hour with average of a $30 tab) for bringing me a plate. What's really sad is that I'll tip higher for good food and the chef will never know. Because of this, I think the government should force restaurants to pay waiters and bartenders etc a flat wage and increase the cost of the food and beverage and have a no "tipping policy". They should then redistribute the funds amongst the employees giving the chefs and line cooks a bigger cut then the waitstaff and busyboy. I'm laughing as a write this because I know it will never happen. But no one ever went back to a restaurant with horrible food because the waiters were so nice. The government should mirror Canada and provide healthcare coverage for all. I'm laughing at that as well. Regarding the 401k plan, every company should have plans even if they can't do employee matches.

Also, I disagree that anyone can learn to cook. I've been "practicing" for 8 years now and am still lacking in so many areas.

[Fat Guy]

Does anybody have hard data on how much money restaurant workers make -- both actual wages and net take-home pay -- at various restaurants in different markets?

[Cheffie3]

Here are some sites:

Wisconsin:

http://www.dwd.state.wi.us/lmi/wages_oesst...state_page2.htm

$7.69 is the median for short order cooks and $8.69 is the median for regular cooks

California:

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/occup$/...ion_code=650350

$8-10 is the median for short order cooks and $8-14 is the median for regular cooks

[tan319]

It's interesting to note that pastry chefs usually have better starting salaries than cooks. My starting salary in a pastry shop back in the 90s was $11/hour, whereas a few of my cooking friends working in the city's best restaurants were making no more than $8.

I wonder if this still holds true?

What's troubling about this is that 5-8 years later, it's still the same pay.

It's kind of ironic that I found this thread tonight, because this subject has been on my mind more and more during the last 3 or 4 weeks.

I love cooking and creating but this economy is going to screw things up even more for us.I don't know if the major citys are feeling it as much but it's getting shitty out here.

What a difference 2 years makes.

[Lounge Lizard]

One thing I have always said to young people who ask me about getting into the Industry is that you can always find work. I have made some decent money at times and during some of the harder times I've had I have still been able to get some kind of cooking job and "bring home some bacon". Some of those jobs have not been pretty but I have managed to raise a family and live a comfortable life (home,car,play some golf).

I currently make 40k a year have 4 weeks off/yr. and work a 4 day week...semi-retirement for a Chef.

It is very hard at times for a restaurant to make money and afford to pay top dollars but those are not the culprits who make my blood boil. It is the high-end restaurants's and hotels where the Chefs pull a good wage and do not compensate the staff who work hard making that Chef look good.

During my apprenticeship many students would take jobs in high end places for low wages so they could have it on their resume. These places turn those cooks over constintly. Never paying decent wages.

I have spent some years on the floor as well as in the kitchen and know the frustration of cooks making lower wages seeing Servers make at times some very good money. But this is a tough topic as well. I have many friends who have paid for their educations while serving. They could not do this paying full taxes on this money but how come I have to pay taxes on every dollar I make in the Kitchen?

[Chef Fowke]

There is a definite pay scale in the restaurant/hotel food outlet that is based on economics. I have employees in my kitchen making $8.00 an hour and some making above the Canadian average for salaries. I base the pay solely on how much they contribute to the operation of the kitchen vs. how much it costs me to make them a viable member of the brigade.

A young cook walks in with little to no experience. It is fair to pay him minimum wage until he has completed his training. It costs a minimum of $800 to train a new employee with the expense of printed training materials such as menu syllabus, direct hands on training and coaching by a kitchen manager. Unlike a white-collar profession cooks do not need a formal education to start in there chosen careers. They can be trained onsite while performing their job. They gain the benefit of the location they work at. A good hospitality college degree cost $3000 - $4000 a year in Canada with the best schools (Dubrulle) charging in excess of $10k.

When it comes to kitchen management the initial training costs are huge. To retain and develop a long-term manager in a kitchen you need to offer more then money. We offer (after one year) medical and dental plans. We hold extensive management universities for all the Sous Chefs at least once a year focusing on management and coaching skills. This cost, individually, would be $3000 - $5000 for the individual if he/she bought this education on the street.

Then there is the cost of the pre-shifts and weekly management meeting. We spend $25 cost on food for each pre-shift, ½ labour a day for 120 staff members and 3 hours a week for 10 managers. That runs close to $1350 a week in training.

I have been the chef for five years where I now work. I have had the pleasure of working with six Sous Chefs (not including the four I have now) who have gone on to be Executive Chef’s of their own restaurants or owners. Each one of them has nearly doubled his wage.

Everyone of my Chef de Parties who has left has landed at least a Sous Chef position if not an Executive Chef position with a 30% increase in there wage.

The point is, as in every industry, you need to choose your route to success. If you choose to earn your ‘degree’ hands-on it is going to cost you in wages. There is no fast way to be successful in any career. You need to either go to college and pay the top dollar so you can start at a higher wage or you need to suck it up and work hard for many, many years in the kitchen until you have earned your ‘degree’ and have can physically show a reason to be paid well.

[Basildog]

Tommy, what does " using the blackberry" mean?