THE BEST: Vietnamese

[peter_nyc]

Robert Sietsema pronounces Pho Grand "The Best Vietnamese Restaurant in Town."

I believe the worst pho I've ever had was at Pho Grand. Tasted like chicken soup with stuff thrown in.

I heartily recommend Pho Tu Do, on the east side of Bowery just south of Grand St.

[Mistinguett]

We ate at Pho Grand a few days ago and I was not impressed at all. The pho was just a bit above mediocre, the broth was very salty and had no depth. The beef/meats were ok, so they get a + for that.

The beef cubes in spices (a dish that I have often at Nha Trang and I love) were actually chunks of beef (tender, indeed) with a watery sauce on a lettuce leaf and raw onion - and again, very salty.

My husband had the sweet and sour shrimp and his comment was "it's ok... so and so... it's good" - so you take that however you want. I can only comment on the looks of it - very weird orange-glo color.

Service was nice, but the food was disappointing.

So sorry, can't agree with Mr. Sietsema.

[banquo]

Because of the cold and various other reasons, I've eat pho for lunch two days in a row now. I was in Koreatown yesterday for a haircut, so I dropped in on Pho 32, a newish place right on 32nd closer to the 5th Ave end. The tables for two near the entrance leave something to be desired in terms of top space, distance to one's neighbors and leg room. Since each of the tables has a shabu-shabu set up, there is almost no room to to put one's legs underneath, and since the next table over is very close as well, sitting sideways is not comfortable either. At any rate, I've been here twice and both times ordered the large beef pho. The quality of the pho makes up for the uncomfortableness of the setting. There is a nice distinct star anise flavor (a Northern touch I believe) and the broth is robust without being overpowering. The noodles were very expertly prepared--nothing is worse than soggy pho noodles. One gripe would be their preparation of the tendons. The texture is lost because they (on both occasions) have overcooked them. As far as pho goes in New York, I would think this is one of the better options.

Needing to shop in Chinatown today, I decided to drop in on Pho Grand (after hearing about the Village Voice rave). I would say, of the 7 or so places I've tried in NYC, this is the best I've had (nothing here compares to Pho Bolsa in Little Saigon, CA). It's a Chinese owned place, I believe (or at least everyone was speaking in Chinese and not Vietnamese). There's a folk village kind of decor inside, and the waitstaff are very attentive. I ordered the same as I got at Pho 32. They give a lot of meat in their version, perhaps overdoing it. They offer purple basil, unlike at Pho 32, and that's a nice touch (and lemon instead of lime). The meat is a star here--the brisket they give is pretty amazing. The broth has an almost buttery rich taste (from the oxtail I presume), and there's that subtle yet distinct star anise taste (this time, toasted, as it should be). Usually I tire of the broth before I'm finished, but I pretty much downed all of it today. I also ordered the spring rolls which were quite delicious, but quite unlike most other spring rolls I've had (they had a lot of Chinese shittake flavor to them), and the wrapper was, if this is possible, too light and crispy. I like a chewier texture which comes with the use of rice paper instead of wonton wrapper.

The one 'inauthentic' aspect of both bowls I got was the refusal (?) to use enough fish sauce in the broth. My belief is that the fish sauce component should be distinct. Nevertheless, both bowls are well worth trying out.

[ned]

Don't know if there is a dogma about this. . . I always thought lime the proper accompaniment to pho. It's the rule in pho rich Seattle. Curious to hear opinions about that.

I get delivery from Pho Grand at least once a month and I agree with you Banquo--it's really good. Don't like their summer rolls so much but pounded chicken is a highlight. Myself, I always eat number 1 Pho.

If you ever find yourself in Seattle I strongly recommend Pho So 1.

In re the fish sauce. It's been my experience that the broth is a palette on which the eater is meant to inflict their personal tastes--fish sauce, copious sirichua or other spiicy goodness, relatibe amounts of acid. This is all speculation on my part.

[Pan]

Ned, I agree that lime juice is the thing to add. I'm sure they grow limes in Vietnam, but do they grow lemons?

[bpearis]

There is a nice distinct star anise flavor (a Northern touch I believe)

I thought Northern pho was minus star anise. That was the case at a Northern place on Larkin I ate at in SF (Turtle Tower). They used cilantro and lime (I think), instead of basil and lemon which you typically find in NYC. Pho 32 has limes and was not star anise-y to my taste. Pho Grand definitely uses star anise. I like them both, but they are different.

[banquo]

My parents are from the North and as I was growing up they always put charred star anise in our homemade pho. So I always thought that the star anise thing was a Northern addition--that and going to South Vietnamese pho places, they didn't put it in (or if they did, it was undetectable). Of course this does not constitute decisive evidence.

Regarding the lime/lemon preference, I grew up using lime, but when I put in the lemon they had at Pho Grand, it was fantastic--it brightened up the broth and alleviated the palette fatigue I often suffer after too many spoonfuls of broth. I believe lemon grows in SE Asia, but it isn't as prominent as lime which is, evidently, a tropical fruit.

The fish sauce in the broth is, I think, essential. It cannot be mererly an at-the-table addition. Compare salting pasta water to adding salt at the table: two completely different results. The Korean pho places in LA (at least the ones I used to frequent years back) put no detectable amount of fish sauce in their pho. While it still amounted to a good bowl of soup, I never thought of it as pho.

[weinoo]

I'm bumping this topic, as I'm on kind of a quest for the best pho in Manhattan. I'm not talking about $15 pho, like Michael Huynh makes (though it's undoubtedly delish, who even knows how long he'll be at Bar Bao?). I'm talking about a bowl of pho for $6 or $7, max.

Scanning back through the topic, some places that were mentioned 5 years ago include Pho Bang at 5 Pell St., Pho Bang at Mott and Grand and Cong Ly on Hester/Chrystie. Others mentioned Pho Nha Trang, on Centre St., and Nha Trang on Baxter St. These tend to be the usual suspects, though I don't know if they're all still in existence, as my quest just started. Pho Grand, which was my usual suspect, has been on a serious downhill slide the last couple of times we ate their food - and, now we wont eat their food anymore. The last bowl of pho I had tasted of nothing but salt and/or msg, and even the herbs and condiments served with it were tired looking.

So, this past Saturday, wife and I took a little walk over to Cong Ly, and were pleasantly surprised. My choice was the Tai Nam Gan Sach. What a pleasant surprise it was, with it's tasty broth informed by the sweetness of rock sugar, charred onions and star anise, laden with my favorite cuts - rare eye round, well-done brisket, omosa (don't ask, I can't even find it on google), and tendon, which is fun to pick up with your chopsticks and show your dining companions. Once again, fresh herbs and sprouts made an appearance, and overall this pho ranks pretty highly compared to what else I've had on our tiny island. A full report, with pix, can be seen by clicking here.

So, that's where I've started - anyone have any great ideas for me?

[gastrodamus]

I'm bumping this topic, as I'm on kind of a quest for the best pho in Manhattan.  I'm not talking about $15 pho, like Michael Huynh makes (though it's undoubtedly delish, who even knows how long he'll be at Bar Bao?).  I'm talking about a bowl of pho for $6 or $7, max.

←

i recently started a quest for the best pho as well. pho bang is still the best for tai chin nam gan sach IMO. the cuts, especially the tendons and eye of round, are always good here. i find the gap between cong ly and the next best pretty sizeable. my current rankings for tai chin nam gan sach are:

1. pho bang on mott (always consistent) also the best cha gio, banh tap appetizer and bun bo hue

2. cong ly (i've been served cha gio that was foul but my recent visit was solid. they seem to serve the freshest veges)

3. thai son (frog legs w/special french butter is excellent as well)

4. pho grand (eye of round is too thick)

5. pho so 1 (noodles were too bloated and mushy. in fact all the other dishes beside cha gio were overcooked or undercooked)

6. xe lua (decent pho. cha gio is not made properly)

7. pho viet huong (decent. nuoc cham and sriracha are watered-down, which is unacceptable)

8. nha trang one (good toppings but the broth had too much MSG and/or sugar)

here are pho photos from most of the above spots. i'm still trying other places, though last 4-5 times have been pho bang.

not to side track but doyers still has the best chao tom (shrimp paste wrapped around sugar cane) and banh xeo (fried crepe stuffed w/shrimp, pork, sprouts). i highly recommend those dishes if you haven't tried. depending on the day, they won't make the banh xeo so call ahead. i've never had the pho at doyers but my friend tells me it's not that great.

[weinoo]

I'm bumping this topic, as I'm on kind of a quest for the best pho in Manhattan.  I'm not talking about $15 pho, like Michael Huynh makes (though it's undoubtedly delish, who even knows how long he'll be at Bar Bao?).  I'm talking about a bowl of pho for $6 or $7, max.

←

i recently started a quest for the best pho as well. pho bang is still the best for tai chin nam gan sach IMO. the cuts, especially the tendons and eye of round, are always good here. i find the gap between cong ly and the next best pretty sizeable. my current rankings for tai chin nam gan sach are:

1. pho bang on mott (always consistent) also the best cha gio, banh tap appetizer and bun bo hue

2. cong ly (i've been served cha gio that was foul but my recent visit was solid. they seem to serve the freshest veges)

3. thai son (frog legs w/special french butter is excellent as well)

4. pho grand (eye of round is too thick)

5. pho so 1 (noodles were too bloated and mushy. in fact all the other dishes beside cha gio were overcooked or undercooked)

6. xe lua (decent pho. cha gio is not made properly)

7. pho viet huong (decent. nuoc cham and sriracha are watered-down, which is unacceptable)

8. nha trang one (good toppings but the broth had too much MSG and/or sugar)

here are pho photos from most of the above spots. i'm still trying other places, though last 4-5 times have been pho bang.

not to side track but doyers still has the best chao tom (shrimp paste wrapped around sugar cane) and banh xeo (fried crepe stuffed w/shrimp, pork, sprouts). i highly recommend those dishes if you haven't tried. depending on the day, they won't make the banh xeo so call ahead. i've never had the pho at doyers but my friend tells me it's not that great.

←

Thanks gastro, now I'm looking forward to Pho Bang.

[LESider]

I still like Pho Bang and Cong Ly as well. I had a meal at the vietnamese restaurant on Doyers street this past Sunday and the Pho was the worst I can ever remember having. I hope my defense mechanisms kick in soon so I can forget it...

[weinoo]

I recently received this response to my best Vietnamese question, which I posted

on our housing cooperative's web site...

About Cong Ly...

I wanted to make a few comments since its been my go-to for Manhattan Vietnamese for over a decade.  The rice crepes are banh beo. They're pretty rare in Manhattan Vietnamese restaurants.

Their cha gio is some of the worst in Manhattan. It's not a big deal in their bun, but I find it amusing that they've never been able to get cha gio right.

I just noticed that they've gotten a new chef in the last month because a lot of the specialty Vietnamese items that have been off the menu (well, they were on the menu but you couldn't order them) are back on. Banh beo is one of them, so you lucked out in your timing, Mitch.

Additionally, she mentioned a place called Baoguette, which is on Lex between 25th and 26th. Apparently, the executive chef is Thao Nguyen, Michael Huynh's wife, who is/was also the chef at Bao Noodles and Bu'n Soho. Small menu focuses on bahn mi, with a few other dishes - anyone been?

[Pan]

I haven't been to Baoguette, but there's been extensive discussion on Chowhound.

[weinoo]

Yesterday The New York Observer ran an article entitled Top 10 Vietnamese Restaurants, and while there are some worthy choices, a couple of places are noted for their absence. From the article,

the complex flavors of Vietnamese cooking often seem overlooked...The signature Vietnamese soup, pho, takes French pot-au-feu as its origin but adds aromatic Eastern spices like ginger, cinnamon and star anise. The Vietnamese enhancement of the baguette sandwich, bánh mì, provides texture and pop with an ingenious dressing of cilantro, chile, cucumber and daikon. Our scouring of the city for the best in Viet eats started in the heart of Chinatown, but most of our favorites turned out to be elsewhere.

So, they started in Chinatown, but we don't know if they even went to any of the favorites in this very topic - Cong Ly, Pho Bang, et.al.

The full story and their top 10 list, can be seen by clicking here.

[gastrodamus]

So, they started in Chinatown, but we don't know if they even went to any of the favorites in this very topic - Cong Ly, Pho Bang, et.al.

The full story and their top 10 list, can be seen by clicking here.

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i'm willing to guess that they didn't check out all the hole-in-the-walls as some of these restaurants seem more upscale. as long as we're venturing outside of manhattan, pho cho lon in sunset park (8th ave & 56th) is also excellent for pho, long bo (beef soup w/omasas, stomach), bo nhung dam (beef fondue w/rice paper) and sua hot ga (soda w/yolk & condensed milk).

[BryanZ]

If one logs onto Googlemaps there are two Pho Bang entries on Mott St. One is at 157 Mott, the other is at 102 Mott. I'm not sure which is the "right" one, but I stopped in at the 157 Mott St. location for a snack this evening.

I got the steamed rice crepe and a bowl of the basic pho, #1 on the menu. I liked it fine, but I feel like NYC can do better. The veggies across the board were fine but not exactly vibrantly fresh. My crepe, a favorite of mine, was a bit bland. Fish sauce helped, but I think the pork filling needed a bit more salt in the cooking process. A generous portion, however.

As for the pho, the broth was tasty but not terribly complex. This is also a pho that skews toward the savory as opposed to the spiced or the sweet. To be honest, I was looking for a bigger anise hit and more sweetness to round out the dish. Also, while there was plenty of eye round, the tripe was chewier than I'm accustomed to and there was a definite lack of tendon. I only found one small piece.

I feel like I'm complaining a lot here. I liked this place. It was pretty cheap. I'd go back. I'm just not sure it's a step above any decent pho shop that you might hear about from a friend or read about in passing online.

[weinoo]

If one logs onto Googlemaps there are two Pho Bang entries on Mott St.  One is at 157 Mott, the other is at 102 Mott.  I'm not sure which is the "right" one, but I stopped in at the 157 Mott St. location for a snack this evening.

I got the steamed rice crepe and a bowl of the basic pho, #1 on the menu.  I liked it fine, but I feel like NYC can do better.  The veggies across the board were fine but not exactly vibrantly fresh.  My crepe, a favorite of mine, was a bit bland.  Fish sauce helped, but I think the pork filling needed a bit more salt in the cooking process. A generous portion, however.

As for the pho, the broth was tasty but not terribly complex.  This is also a pho that skews toward the savory as opposed to the spiced or the sweet.  To be honest, I was looking for a bigger anise hit and more sweetness to round out the dish.  Also, while there was plenty of eye round, the tripe was chewier than I'm accustomed to and there was a definite lack of tendon.  I only found one small piece.

I feel like I'm complaining a lot here.  I liked this place. It was pretty cheap.  I'd go back.  I'm just not sure it's a step above any decent pho shop that you might hear about from a friend or read about in passing online.

←

I ate at this same Pho Bang this past week - it is the one that is "recognized" as the better of the Bangs. Additionally, I came away with the same feelings as you - broth not complex enough and vegetables not exactly where I want them to be.

So, in comparing Cong Ly and Pho Bang 157, I'd have to say Cong Ly was the better of the two. Next stop will be one of the pho places from the Observer article.

And, I know NYC can do better, I just don't know if it does.

[weinoo]

Since the link I posted above to the NY Observer article basically now sucks, let me report the following restaurants were referred to (and these are the only ones I can still see from the article):

In no particular order:

Slurp (which I'm actually looking forward to trying)

Silent H

Indochine

Le Colonial

Mai House

Saigon Vietnamese Sandwich

The article continued:

For a classic bowl of that aforementioned pho, it’s back down to the Bowery, where you’ll find a sweet, fragrant, addictive broth at long-running Tu Do.

So, in the interest of checking out a few of the restaurants mentioned in the article, while on my quest for good pho in Manhattan, here's Tu Do - at 119 Bowery.

Thanks, NY Observer, for the great fact checking (this is, after all, a week after the article was published), broken link and every other service you provide us with.

I ended up with dumplings on Grand St.

[gastrodamus]

So, in the interest of checking out a few of the restaurants mentioned in the article, while on my quest for good pho in Manhattan, here's Tu Do - at 119 Bowery.

Thanks, NY Observer, for the great fact checking (this is, after all, a week after the article was published), broken link and every other service you provide us with.

I ended up with dumplings on Grand St.

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funny pic. tu do moved across the street to 102 bowery. i'm guessing that the yellow sign states just that – except not in english. i tried their pho and cha gio last week. the cha gio was soggy and the rice paper lacked that crunch and chewiness. the veges are fresh but they serve lemon instead of lime. the pho was topped with good cuts of brisket and eye of round. tripe is the same as elsewhere. what really got my attention was its flavorful broth, so remarkable i went back last night. the broth wasn't as good and the eye of round came out clumped together, fully cooked on the outside and deep maroon in the center. obviously not thawed. the brisket was tough and had that reflective green film on the surface. my friend and i ended up not finishing our pho, which never happens. we also tried the banh xeo stuffed mostly with bean sprouts, two slivers of pork and three over-boiled shrimp. it's no doyers. in the end you didn't miss much.

i also tried the classic banh mi at baoguette recently. the baguette itself is as good as paris bakery but the pickled carrots were too pronounced and buried the pate and terrine flavor. i feel i've had better for less at banh mi saigon bakery, saigon banh mi and even nicky's, but i went right before they closed. the bun bo hue broth had a beige hue and the meat toppings were underwhelming but pork feet may be too hardcore for kips bay. it was still tasty however. the two staff members were really nice and gave us free papaya salad, summer rolls and coffee. i still plan on returning but during lunch time.

[weinoo]

funny pic. tu do moved across the street to 102 bowery. i'm guessing that the yellow sign states just that – except not in english.

←

That's great - thanks, gastro. Sounds like it may be that I don't have to try it after all. And if I've insulted anyone at the Observer, oh well...I mean really, Indochine and Le Colonial? Whatever.

From my local, community message board, I got this yesterday:

I was just speaking to my brother's friend (also Vietnamese) who is a pho buff. He maintains that Cong Ly, Nha Trang (I'm guessing the one on Centre, but I might be wrong), and Pho Viet Huong have the only edible pho. I was going to try out Pho Viet Huong next time I had the chance. He is also friendly with the proprietor of Nha Trang, so that might skew things a bit.

[gastrodamus]

i didn't think much of pho viet huong but i've only tried it once. a friend recommended that as well so i really should go back. i've had nha trang one on baxter but not nha trang on centre. i was tweaking on MSG after dining at the former. i have jury duty on monday so i might have to duck in before heading back to work. thx for the reco.

[gastrodamus]

despite the online reviews, nha trang centre is far better than nha trang one on baxter. i'm thinking the reco from your community board meant the one on centre. for starters, the cha gio is made properly and this place has the crunch and the chewiness down better than others in manhattan. the pho is overall very good with quality cuts, flavorful broth and well-cooked noodles. the thai basil wasn't the prettiest but the lettuce leaves and mint were fresh. def worth a visit.

[gastrodamus]

as the banh mi battle replaces the tired burger wars, an choi seems to be the strongest contender amongst the newcomers and higher quality than the old standbys. the classic banh mi is excellent. tuan, the principal owner, says the pate is made in-house and while the headcheese is sourced from brooklyn, he'd like to make that as well. the ingredients are well-balanced. most places tend to overstuff the banh mi with pickled carrots and daikon, pummeling the pate flavor. here all the ingredients are discernible. the baguette has a nice crust that gives easily, but i'm not sure who bakes the bread. i also ordered a side of roasted pork belly with crispy, chewy skin, a recipe tuan picked up during his trip to saigon if i recall correctly. amazing flavor and texture. i'm getting the sandwich version next time.

at $6.50-8.00 range, it's steeper than the classic banh mi joints but slightly less than baoguette and hanco (and what ssam used to charge for the 3 terrine). value is a huge part of the banh mi appeal, but an choi is definitely worth the extra $2. the space fits the neighborhood, the staff is gregarious and the sandwich is served on a real, non-disposable plate! most importantly, it's a superior banh mi. as quality sandwich shops become more relevant this year, i recommend putting an choi high on the list.

[weinoo]

I also had the classic at An Choi (I think even before they opened to the general public) and liked it alot. Nice balance.

Are they serving their pho yet?

And there's no way the burger wars are over yet...I just had a great one last night.

[gastrodamus]

ha. burger wars, as well as the quest for the perfect slice, will never be over. i think an choi has served pho here and there, but it will be on the menu for sure this weekend according to tuan. it too comes with a premium price tag so i'm hoping it'll be noticeably higher quality than the other manhattan options.