Who is drinking Burgundy?

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

I regularly recommend plenty of good Burgundy at below $40 and even below $20, and some below $15, depending on the local market. Moreover, given current market conditions, there is a lot of excellent Burgundy being closed out at $10-20 prices.

Edited May 29, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[cdh]

Claude,

Earlier in the thread you listed a number of recommended producers... do you have any advice regarding things one might see on a label that are red flags or otherwise warnings to stay away?

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

cdh -- If you don't want to take the time to go by individual producers, the next best thing to do is to go by importers. In no particular order, Kermit Lynch, Martine's, Rosenthal/Select Vineyards, Chateau and Estates, Chambers & Chambers, Wilson & Daniels, Beaune Imports, Frederick Wildman, and Vineyard Brands are all importers who have generally consistent and strong lineups of Burgundy producers (which definitely is not to say that I endorse every wine or every producer that they carry, though).

Also, be sure that you buy from a source that handles the wines well, not exposing it to excessive heat or light.

Finally, with respect to red Burgundy, it should be served slightly chilled -- 55-60 degrees Farenheit when poured. This is crucial -- too hot and the acid balance is lost. If you are in a restaurant that brings you a bottle that is above this temperature, do not hesitate to ask that it be put in an ice bucket.

Edited May 29, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[mogsob]

Claude -- excellent tips all (especially the temp issue, which is often overlooked).

Chris -- I shall account for my taste here (love the latin! ) Barthod's village Chambolle -- generally about $25 or so. You should still be able to source a 1998 pretty easily. Open and decant about 6 hours before serving into a wide bottom decanter and stopper. You might want to smell the wine every hour or so to chart the evolution of the wine as it develops. Remove the stopper with about an hour or so before drinking. Remember -- keep the decanter out of the kitchen and away from flowers and other scents that can invade the air around the wine (also think about the temp -- keep out of sunlight and away from heat sources and in a cool area).

[Carema]

Open and decant about 6 hours before serving into a wide bottom decanter and stopper.  You might want to smell the wine every hour or

ok I know this is going to open Pandora's box here but in my experience you never never never decant burgundy. It is too delicate a flower, a butterfly with fragile wings. Your temp advice and everything else seemed spot on to me. They have those special (quack quack) "duck" shaped decanters for older burgundies where the wine kinda slips in at a 45 degree angle. Pinot Noir is a fickle, spoiled brat of a grape- it is demanding about where it is grown, climate etc. You know those kind of kids that "aren't good at transition"??? That's burgundy in a nutshell. I do not decant. I open, I pour into glasses, I let stand. Then you can check and let evolve- away from the lillies etc.

[baruch]

WOW! that's some decanting!! are u able 2 really discern the aromas as they develop over the 6 hrs? & what is your procedure for lowering the temp to approx 55-60, in that i assume the area is @ typical american room temp 70-72?

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Open and decant about 6 hours before serving into a wide bottom decanter and stopper.  You might want to smell the wine every hour or

ok I know this is going to open Pandora's box here but in my experience you never never never decant burgundy. It is too delicate a flower, a butterfly with fragile wings. Your temp advice and everything else seemed spot on to me. They have those special (quack quack) "duck" shaped decanters for older burgundies where the wine kinda slips in at a 45 degree angle. Pinot Noir is a fickle, spoiled brat of a grape- it is demanding about where it is grown, climate etc. You know those kind of kids that "aren't good at transition"??? That's burgundy in a nutshell. I do not decant. I open, I pour into glasses, I let stand. Then you can check and let evolve- away from the lillies etc.

Traditionally, Burgundy was not decanted. However, times have been changing. In fact, Dujac wines have a notice on the label recommending decanting because the wines may throw sediment.

In restaurants in Burgundy, one sees wines sometimes decanted, sometimes not. On occasion, I have had a producer showing a wine to me decant it in the cellar (e.g., Francois Millet did that with one vintage of de Vogue's wines).

Personally, I frequently decant red Burgundies, primarily for visual esthetic reasons, if I am hosting others for dinner. I almost always decant older white Burgundies because they demand the aeration.

I must admit that I've never tried to decant a wine for six hours, and frankly, I would guess that Ghislaine Barthod's 1998 Chambolle is showing quite well straight from the bottle right now.

[Busboy]

I love Burgundies, but can rarely afford them -- my mom still has the first bottle of legal wine I ever bought, a bottle of Compte George du Vogue Chambolle-Musigny. Of course, I remember nothing about it, but my instincts were there, even at 18 (think mid-70's).

Burgundy's complexity and Parker's dislike are actually it's greatest features. Where grand cru Bordeaux routinely sell for over $100 -- and may be unapprochable for a decade -- one can get a Burgundy of similar quality and greater approachability for substantially less, if one avoids DOC and a couple of other cult producers.

The flip side is a certain unreliability. I think I heard it said best in The Economist magazine (mentally correct the figures for inflation) "A great bottle of burgundy cost 100 pounds: 20 poinds for the great bottle, and 80 punds for the other four."

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Just to fill it out, other producers of wines from Chambolle-Musigny that I can recommend (not particular order): Digioia-Royer, Potel, Fourrier, Michel Magnien, Domaine de la Vougeraie, H. Lignier, Prieur.

If I count correctly, that gives 26 producers of wines from a particular village that I believe do at least a very good job. But once you leave that list, you are at your own peril as the drop in quality can be breathtaking, and there are many more producers out there.

[Florida Jim]

Just to fill it out, other producers of wines from Chambolle-Musigny that I can recommend ): Digioia-Royer, . . . Prieur.

Claude,

Digioia-Royer; do tell - I never even heard of these guys. Any details?

Prieur; really? Virtually every bottle I have had that bore that name has underacheived, regardless of terroir or vintage.

Best, Jim

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Jim -- Digioia-Royer is a small, young, passionate producer who makes wines very much in the style of Dujac. He has Chambolle, Chambolle vieilles vignes, Chambolle-Groseilles (the only example of this vineyard I have ever come across) and Chambolle-Gruenchers. For now, the entire production goes to the UK. Check out my reviews of the 2000 and 2001 vintages.

Prieur has been improving for the last 5 years or so, since Antonin Rodet bought into the estate and put Nadine Gubelin in charge of the cellar. Not at the level of Roumier, of course, but most of the wines are not bad, albeit not in my favorite style. My gut feeling is that the next level of improvement will have to come from changes in the vineyards.

Prieur's Musigny is no better than the eighth best produced, but it is still recognizably Musigny, and given that that is one of the three greatest vineyards in Burgundy, if not the world, that is saying something. (However, Prieur's portion of Musigny is not the best.) There is also a tiny amount of Chambolle-Combe d'Orveaux that adjoins Prieur's patch of Musigny and that is very close to the Musigny in quality.

[mogsob]

Just to fill it out, other producers of wines from Chambolle-Musigny that I can recommend (not particular order): Digioia-Royer, Potel, Fourrier, Michel Magnien, Domaine de la Vougeraie, H. Lignier, Prieur.

aahhh,mmmmm, Lignier -- good stuff, if you can find it.

I wish Steve P. was around to defend decanting -- heck, I decant white wines also. I don't subscribe (obviously) to this delicate flower theory -- and the proof, for me, is in the glass.

I got the 6 hour decanting method from Rosenthal -- he gave me six Chambolles (including Barthod and Lignier) and specifically instructed me on how to decant (I had to buy a new decanter as the Riedel Ultra doesn't have a stopper!). I tasted the wine every hour or so -- I never learned so much.

The truth is that Burgundy doesn't require a fat wallet -- it just requires a bit of time and research. And, imho, there is no research that pays off quite so well.

[baruch]

ok girls - just bot the following to taste & compare - what should i be looking for?

'99 chambolle-musigny (antonin guyon)

'99 volnay caillerets (bouchard père et fils)

'99 santenay grand clos rousseau also from (bouchard père et fils)

[mogsob]

As I wrote above, I'm not much for comparing one area of Burgundy to another. Rather, I would judge each on its own merits. While others disagree, I strongly encourage decanting here. Taste the wine as it evolves. Pay attention to the balance between the fruit and acid. Notice the length of the wine, and how the taste develops within each sip. Particularly with a good Chambolle, the wine should be lightly perfumed and silky in texture - unlike any other wine.

But, most of all, have fun. These three wines are village wines and are therefore intended for the table, to be shared with friends and married with great food!

[Mark Sommelier]

Another small producer of Chambolle that I have had success with is Laurent Roumier.

[Craig Camp]

Decanting is a controversial thing when it comes to pinot noir. I do not subscribe to the concept of decanting Burgundy. In the course of my work I have many times opened a Burgundy at lunch then re-tasted it for dinner. The wine is never bad and usually quite enjoyable, but there always seems to be something missing in the nose.

For Burgundy I use the big Riedel bowls and enjoy the evolution in my glass. If any one wine is about aromatics it is pinot noir and long decanting times just let all those essences blow off into the air. Like I said the wine is still delicious after hours in the decanter, but something has disappeared.

I have never seen anyone in Burgundy decant a wine for reasons other than sediment or reduction.

[baruch]

Another small producer of Chambolle that I have had success with is Laurent Roumier.

Jesus, mark!! (note: 2 "separate" words )

how many producers are in chambolle-musigny?? & u have kindly listed ~ 25, how many more 'good' ones, in your opinion, are there???

[Craig Camp]

ok girls - just bot the following to taste & compare - what should i be looking for?

'99 chambolle-musigny (antonin guyon)

'99 volnay caillerets (bouchard père et fils)

'99  santenay grand clos rousseau also from (bouchard père et fils)

The main concern I have with the wines of negociants is they do not always taste of the commune, but more the style of the house. With some shippers it can be difficult to tell the difference between Fixin and Santenay.

You may find these links helpful:

Burgundy Basics

Becky Wasserman

[baruch]

[

You may find these links helpful:

Burgundy Basics

Becky Wasserman

i did & thx

nxt purchase will be from the burgundy producers mentioned vs these from the large negocient houses, although i thought antonin guyon WAS a smaller producer????

[Mark Sommelier]

The main concern I have with the wines of negociants is they do not always taste of the commune, but more the style of the house. With some shippers it can be difficult to tell the difference between Fixin and Santenay.

Craig,

I see that we agree on several points regarding Burgundy. I am also of the "no decanting red Burgundy" school, except for the reasons you stated. I have taken to decanting young white Burgundies from certain producers, however. As far as negociant wines are concerned, I make a point of only buying small domaines for my winelist. The exception are the several domaine owned negociant wines that appeal to me - Louis Latour Corton Charlemagne, as an example. The issue of who is a viticulteur and who is a negociant has become blurred considerably in recent years, making this whole thing more complicated. Vincent Girardin, Bernard Morey, Verget: viticulteurs, eleveurs or negociants? The best strategy is this: the proof is in the glass.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Mark Sommelier (log)

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

It should be pointed out that some producers that are negociants also have significant holdings of their own, e.g., Faiveley, Drouhin, Jadot, and Bouchard P. & F. In fact, the Volnay-Caillerets from Bouchard P&F mentioned above is from property that Bouchard owns. These producers mark on the label the wines that are from properties that they own or control.

It is true that once one gets beyond the top tier of negociants, the individual character of the terroir is often blurred. However for top negociants, such as those mentioned above, Nicolas Potel, and the newly-created Dujac F. & P., the terroir is quite precisely defined.

The confusion over negociant and estate is a serious issue. For example, Leroy uses virtually identical labels for its estate wines and its negociant wines. I can't tell you how many people I've run into who have bought Leroy negociant wines (not even made by Leroy, but bought in the barrel) thinking that they were buying Domaine Leroy wines. Other producers such as Meo-Camuzet have started making negociant wines that are sold as part of the whole lineup, and unless you are really very knowledgeable, you won't even know to suspect that this is being done. (Meo is making the wine from bought-in grapes, though.)

Edited June 2, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[baruch]

jesus claude, u anticipated my q?

negocient vs. producer, i.e., drouhin/drouhin-laroze, jadot, latour, faiveley - VS. - the list of chambolle-musigny producers on this thread.

no wonder burgundy is difficult to get-your-hands-around????????

[docsconz]

jesus claude, u anticipated my q?

negocient vs. producer, i.e., drouhin/drouhin-laroze, jadot, latour, faiveley - VS. - the list of chambolle-musigny producers on this thread.

no wonder burgundy is difficult to get-your-hands-around????????

Amen!

[Mark Sommelier]

jesus claude, u anticipated my q?

negocient vs. producer, i.e., drouhin/drouhin-laroze, jadot, latour, faiveley - VS. - the list of chambolle-musigny producers on this thread.

no wonder burgundy is difficult to get-your-hands-around????????

Yes, baruch, that's exactly the point. As Claude correctly pointed out, the top tier of negociants can be expected to deliver, but at a premium price. The French tax laws have caused much of these new developements. Many negociant firms have large holdings. A strict negociant is a blender. This new form of negociant is a vineyard manager, eleveur, winemaker and bottler, plus a blender. This is true in the Rhone Valley, also. It doesn't make for easy going on the casual consumer.

[baruch]

OK, now 2 more (among 100's) questions spring-to-mind:

a) as in the ex. of dom. leroy, how does 1, n fact, tell or be able to differentiate bet the estate/domaine

bottle vs. the negociant bottle???????????

b) just to clear up the chain:

an individual domaine sells directly to an importer such as kermit lynch to be distributed, etc ...

vs. or also (?) a negociant in beaune sells to the same type of importer OR acts as its own

distributor, continuing the complete circle from brl purchase - to - consumer?