Who is drinking Burgundy?

[baruch]

looking for answers to the above post, s'il vous plait

[Craig Camp]

OK, now 2 more (among 100's) questions spring-to-mind:

a) as in the ex. of dom. leroy, how does 1, n fact, tell or be able to differentiate bet the estate/domaine

  bottle vs. the negociant bottle???????????

b) just to clear up the chain:

  an individual domaine sells directly to an importer such as kermit lynch to be distributed, etc ...

      vs. or also (?) a negociant in beaune sells to the same type of importer OR acts as its own

      distributor, continuing the complete circle from brl purchase - to - consumer?

A. You have to read the label carefully and learn the difference.

B. Assuming you mean the USA - Almost all of the above. Any of those combinations could happen except the last one. An importer and distributor (which can be one in the same) is a required middleman.

[baruch]

merci, but appears to be more difficult than appears as per the domaine leroy example above.

if i understand u correctly, a burgundy produced by the domaine leroy will say just that?? & a burgundy bottled by the domaine leroy acting as negociant will day just THAT, n'est-ce pas?

[Mark Sommelier]

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

The Leroy situation is very complex.

Domaine d'Auvenay is Lalou Bize-Leroy's personal estate, and there is no confusing that label with the labels for Domaine Leroy and the Leroy negociant wines.

Mme Bize has a controlling interest in the two Leroy operations, but there are outside investors, and I believe that the ownership of the two is the same. Domaine Leroy is located in Vosne-Romanee and the Leroy negociant firm is located in Auxey-Duresses. This is the key to distinguishing the virtually identical labels of the two operations: if the small print indicates that the firm is in Auxey-Duresses (or Meursault, which is the main post office for Auxey), it is a Leroy negociant wine. If the label says that the firm is in Vosne-Romanee, then the wine is Domaine Leroy.

An example of how tortuous all this is: A subscriber called me last month about some Leroy Volnay-Santenots that she had purchased at a well-known shop in New York that claims great expertise in Burgundies. Now, Domaine Leroy in fact owns vines in the Volnay-Santenots vineyard and makes its own domaine wine. The store represented the bottles as Domaine Leroy. However, the label stated "Auxey-Duresses" on it -- meaning that the bottles she had were negociant wines that Leroy had purchased in barrel from (which is the Leroy negociant practice, unlike some negociants who purchase grapes and make the wines themselves) from another producer and an entirely separate wine from Domaine Leroy's Volnay-Santenots. This situation was so complex that the personnel at the store did not realize what had happened, i.e., that they had purchased and resold Leroy negociant wine in the belief that it was Domaine Leroy wine, and they objected when my subscriber attempted to return the wine because it was not Domaine Leroy (not the smartest customer relations practice for the store).

[baruch]

MERCI BEAUCOUP 2 both Claude & Mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will "copy" & take when i go to either the burgundy wine co store or rosenthal's

[baruch]

nice to see that this thread has run out-of-steam burgundies only merit 2 pgs, but okra has 3??? & other topics, less interesting are discussed to death. o well, c'est la vie

[inventolux]

I have a story to tell..........

My wife and I took our henymoon in france and we drove from Paris to Savigny Les Baune. (one of many road trips) We pulled into a cave and began looking at some wines a merchant had on his shelves. After talking with the man who was very knowledgable for about 45 minutes, he says, why dont we taste some wines I have left over from lunch? I said sure, not knowing what this guy drank for lunch. He whips out 2 bottles:

A 1947 Givry Santenay and a 1993 DRC La Tache both half full.

The 47 he said he began decanting 18 hours ago and the DRC over 24 hours ago.

Most other Pinot Noirs would be dead after this treatment. They will remain some of the most memorable wine experiences for a long time. In describing the two wines the man said humbly, "always with burgundy, you wait for at least 10 years....now thats a wine."

I love the mystery of burgundy.

[carpet bagger]

I would echo Florida Jim above that producer is primary -- if you have a top producer, you will rarely experience the disappointments that so many people claim for Burgundy.

I couldn't disagree more. Drinking wines from one or even a small number of producers in Burgundy may provide consistency, but you won't really appreciate what Burgundy is. My approach is to drink whatever Chambolles, Volnays or Pommards I can get my hands on, with a degree of price sensititivty. For producers I've heard of, but haven't sampled, I'm willing to pay just about as much as for wines I know. For unknown producers (and, to be fair, there are some real duds out there), I rarely pay more than $30 in a store or $60 on a wine list for those village wines (a bit lower retail in the UK, but a bit higher in a restaurant). I'll also ask a lot of questions before buying (naming other producers I like in the vineyard or village). Of course, if I get a puzzled look in response, I walk out or turn the page -- nothing like a sommelier/retailer who is clueless about Burgundy (the wines are generally poor).

Another strategy is to first sample the village wines of a producer, and then move up (although I've let a few trusted sommeliers/merchants steer me to special bottles).

If you are in NYC and really want to get into Burgundy, go to Rosenthal Wine Merchants, who directly import from some of the best small producers. They will put together a tasting program for you (tailored to your budget and level of interest). By far and away the most satisfying wine buying experience NYC has.

Well, from what I consider quality producers, one can go quite a ways without having to dip into the junk producers by just choosing whatever is available. For example, for Chambolle alone, I consider the following producers, taken off the top of my head so a few may be left out, top notch (no particular order): G. Roumier, de Vogue, Mugnier, Barthod, Faiveley, Clavelier, Ponsot, Dujac, JJ Confuron, Drouhin, Jadot, Leroy, Groffier, D. Mortet, Arnoux, Grivot, Mugneret-Gibourg, Drouhin-Laroze, Perrot-Minot.

Claude Kolm, I agree with your impecable list, but are they affordable? At the risk of oversimplifying, my biggest problem today with Burgundy is as follows. We haven't had a really great vintage since 1990. That is not to say we haven't had some nice drinkable wines, but I am waiting for the next spectacular vintage before I dive in with both feet again. 1996 was really nice but not 1990. I am with great pleasure drinking my 1988,1989 and just starting on some of the1990's. Thats my reason for not buying Burgandies at present.

[Mark Sommelier]

carpet bagger wrote:

Claude Kolm, I agree with your impecable list, but are they affordable? At the risk of oversimplifying, my biggest problem today with Burgundy is as follows. We haven't had a really great vintage since 1990. That is not to say we haven't had some nice drinkable wines, but I am waiting for the next spectacular vintage before I dive in with both feet again. 1996 was really nice but not 1990. I am with great pleasure drinking my 1988,1989 and just starting on some of the1990's. Thats my reason for not buying Burgandies at present.

carpet bagger, you really should look for some '99 reds before they all completely disappear. There are many very fine bottles out there. 2002 has been touted as the "next great vintage". 2003 by some accounts is a disaster that will provide short supply and high prices.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

carpetbagger -- First of all, I disagree with your vintage evaluations. In the words of Michel Lafarge, 1990 was a vintage for people who love wine, 1993 was a vintage for people who love Burgundy." IMO and in that of plenty of others, 1993 was the finest vintage of our generation; 1990 gives lots of pleasure, but little terroir. But there are plenty of other good vintages, and indeed, since 1984, only 1994 qualifies as poor (although 2000 and 2001 were very difficult in parts of the Cote de Beaune).

Second, one always buys the wine, not the vintage. There are plenty of outstaanding and even great wines from less fashionable vintages, just as there are plenty of poor wines from fashionable vintages. For myself, I've bought plenty 1993s, 1995s, 1996s, 1998s, 1999s, and I'll buy certain 2001s. I didn't buy across the board in those vintages, but what I bought will provide great pleasure for me and my guests.

As for expense, they've been giving Burgundy away here. Recently for friends and to have some throw-around Burgundies for myself, I picked up 1999 Philippe Rossignol Gevrey-Chambertin Les Corbeaux for $12.99/bottle, 1999 Bizot Vosne-Romanee vieilles vignes for the same price, and 1999 Simon Bize Savigny-les-Beaune Les Bourgeots for $9.99/bottle. The 2000s are extremely uneven, but they are going to be dumped this fall and next spring, and those who know what to look for will be able to score some real deals.

Edited June 10, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[Belmont3]

I had this wine over the weekend and it was fantastic, very well priced for the quality of the wine in my opinion.

1999 Morey St. Denis "Les Herbuottes" Res. NF

Any info on this?

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Who is the producer?

[Belmont3]

Oops........... Frederic Magnien

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

I can tell you that it is a negociant wine and that it is village-grade Morey-St-Denis. I have not had the wine.

[dlc]

I can tell you that it is a negociant wine and that it is village-grade Morey-St-Denis.  I have not had the wine.

Claude,

I thought that Fredric Magnien had vineyard holdings in Morey St. Denis. I know that they buy wine but I thought they had some holdings there.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

I may be wrong, but I though Michel was the estate wines and Frederic the negociant wines. I've visited the former, not the latter. I'm not enamored with his west coast importer so I probably haven't paid the attention that I should have.

Edited June 10, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[dlc]

Would that be North Berkeley? If so I understand. The brother that is winemaker for Frederic has 2 parcels that he is responsible for. One is a Morey St Denis Ruchotes and the other a Bonne Mares. I understand he is doing some type of "bio-dynamic" proceedures with these 2 sites but is not willing to call them biodynamic wines.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

dlc - North Berkeley is the west coast importer.

Many people in Burgundy and elsewhere are experimenting with or outright following biodynamic practices but not publicizing it because they want the wines to be judged on an impartial basis.

[inventolux]

1 month ago I was in the Savigny Les Beaune region and a cave owner pured my wife and I some of his "leftovers" from his lunch, it was a 1947 Givry Santenay (easily on my top 10 wine experiences) and it had been decanting for over 24 hours. This gentleman told me to always decant burgundy over 10 years old. I have been decanting every burgundy since, my last experience was a '93 Vougeot and it was like drinking a raspberry bush after decanting 8 hours. I believe there is a limit to how long you can decant burgundies, that mystery depends on the individual bottle which is the mystery of burgundy as a whole.

Sorry for changing the subject.

Edited June 11, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[Craig Camp]

1 month ago I was in the Savigny Les Beaune region and a cave owner pured my wife and I some of his "leftovers" from his lunch, it was a 1947 Givry Santenay (easily on my top 10 wine experiences) and it had been decanting for over 24 hours. This gentleman told me to always decant burgundy over 10 years old. I have been decanting every burgundy since, my last experience was a '93 Vougeot and it was like drinking a raspberry bush after decanting 8 hours. I believe there is a limit to how long you can decant burgundies, that mystery depends on the individual bottle which is the mystery of burgundy as a whole.

Sorry for changing the subject.

Was the 1947 a Givry or a Santenay? It can't be both. Who was the producer? You also do not list the producer of the Vougeot. Naming Burgundy without naming the producer is not very helpful.

I have often tasted old Burgundies the day after a tasting and they have always been shot. I can see no possible reason to decant a 56 year old pinot noir for 24 hours. It is certain to destroy the wine.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

But was it Burgundy?

[inventolux]

Sorry for the confusion, 1947 Santenay Gravieres 1er cru .

The Vougeot producer is Domaine Meo Camuzet. (the label is really worn out so thats all I can tell you)

To give you anther extreme example, Un-burgundian, I drank a 1907 piper heidseck monopole "shipwreck" over 18 hours after being opened and it lost all of its carbonation of couse but was like drinking an ancient white burgundy with incredible finesse. The nose in the beginning was like carmelized popcorn (ask Joseph Spellman, he was there) and the next day, it turned into a hugely complex bourgogne blancish character with tons of oilyness, dark rum, a little chocolatey and the color went from light to lemon to almost fried potato chip like.

The cave owner in Savigny Les Beaune is good friends with RPjr. , is fully aware of even which rows of grapes will yeild a highly concentrated nose after 10 years of aging with extended decanting. He also takes pride in decanting old Madieras from the early 1800's and late 1700's for 48 hours or more.

I have also opened a 1957 Bienvenues-Batard-Montrachet Grand Cru from Leroy, it was opened in '99 and it began to die 4 hours out of the bottle. Pretty impressive for a wine that has relied mostly on acidity to survive.

Edited June 12, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[Craig Camp]

The cave owner in Savigny Les Beaune is good friends with RPjr.

He also takes pride in decanting old Madieras from the early 1800's and late 1700's for 48 hours or more.

A Burgundian who is friend with Parker and even likes his taste in Burgundy!

I don't think a Parker recommendation for a Burgundy will turn many heads around here.

Decanting Madeira and Burgundy don't have a thing to do with each other. Madeira is already oxidized - not much can happen to it in a decanter. The gorgeous aromatics of fine pinot noir are another story.

By the way I will ask Joe about that wine. He is an old friend.

[eatingmike]

An interesting tidbit from the Beaux Freres (Oregon) web site about decanting Pinot Noir (disclaimer - RMP Jr. is a co-owner of this winery and it shows in the wine style that is produced)...

To Decant Or Not Decant

This is a controversial subject, especially when it comes to Pinot Noir. Decanting is the simple process of carefully pouring a wine from its bottle into a glass decanter in order to both separate it from the sediment in the bottom of the bottle and to aerate the wine. In a wine with abundant sediment, it is almost impossible to drink the last 6-8 ounces in the bottle if it has not been decanted. Where decanting becomes controversial is that unlike Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, or Nebbiolo-based wines, which improve significantly with aeration, Pinot Noir has such a highly nuanced, delicate perfume that these fragile aromas can dissipate/deteriorate quickly because of excessive exposure to aeration. For that reason, many old time Burgundians refuse to decant their wines regardless of how much sediment they contain. Our wines, which are never fined or filtered, begin to throw a sediment between 3-4 years of age. The richest vintages, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1994, 1993, and 1992, will consistently throw a heavier sediment than lighter years such as 2001 or 1995. Our position is that when the wine has some sediment, decanting is recommended, but only 10-15 minutes prior to serving. With respect to our young vintages, which sometimes have noticeable CO2 the same rule applies. Because we bottle our wines with low sulphur and relatively high levels of CO2, which early in life give the wines a slightly spritzy component, yet protects the fruit and perfume (we learned of this practice from Burgundy's great Henri Jayer), those who drink our wines in the first 12-24 months after bottling are advised to decant. Of course, it all comes down to a matter of taste, but as long as decanting is done ten minutes prior to service, we have not noticed any deterioration in the complex Pinot Noir aromas.