Tomatoes in Italian Cooking: Tips & Techniques

[Milagai]

Tomatoes had some trouble gaining acceptance in Italy, but were widely consumed by the 1700s.  That's a couple hundred years of culinary use -- plenty of time for them to be considered firmly traditional.

But why stop there?  Consider that the spicy chili peppers featured so prominently in Thai and Chinese cooking also came from the New World.

←

Oh, no need to stop there

I had already read some stuff on

chili peppers in Indian food etc.

Also tomatoes and potatoes in Indian food

(e.g. the excellent book by Achaya).

There were (atl least until a couple of

generations ago) some very traditional

people who would not eat tomatoes, potatoes,

and a couple of other "foreign" vegetables, because

they didnt have a place in the indigenous classifications...

Not any more.

But still, some very orthodox people won't eat mushrooms....

So I was curious about Italian food ....

Milagai

[albie]

I believe that a general acceptance of tomatoes by the Italians came a bit later than the 18th century. In Naples, for example, one historical work recounts that a pasta dish prepared with tomatoes was called ``all'ultima moda del 1849." Once largely confined to the southern regions, consumption of tomatoes, especially in pasta sauces is now virtually ubiquitous, along with the dried, extruded semolina pastas.

[Pan]

Milagai, are edible mushrooms not indigenous to India? I asked that question, but it seems an odd question to me. Why do some Indians not eat mushrooms?

[Milagai]

Milagai, are edible mushrooms not indigenous to India? I asked that question, but it seems an odd question to me. Why do some Indians not eat mushrooms?

←

Edible mushrooms are indigenous to the hilly areas

(e.g. Himalayas or Nilgiri areas) and thus the people of those

regions eat them.

They are not familiar to the plains folk who think of fungus

as the bad stuff on food gone bad

So very very orthodox vegetarians from the plains most likely

would not eat them, though the new yuppies

in the cities break all food taboos customary to their

grandparents, and will eat anything if it's in fashion.

Mushrooms are now widely marketed in all the cities

and are becoming very familiar to all, especially through

Chinese, Thai etc food. They're most often the plain white

button mushrooms though more varieties are slowly becoming

available.

Milagai

[albiston]

I believe that a general acceptance of tomatoes by the Italians came a bit later than the 18th century. In Naples, for example, one historical work recounts that a pasta dish prepared with tomatoes was called ``all'ultima moda del 1849."  Once largely confined to the southern regions, consumption of tomatoes, especially in pasta sauces is now virtually ubiquitous, along with the dried, extruded semolina pastas.

←

One has to make a distinction between Southern (and Central) and Northern Italy, becuase there's a big difference there: Italy was after all only unified in the second half of the XIX century.

What histrocal culinary references show for the South can be decieving of what the reality of the time was can . Tomatoes (and peppers) took quite a while to get into the kitchens of the middle-class kitchens: the mid XIX century reference you quote perfectly reflects this. On the other hand there are enough historical sources which are not cookbooks, but rather travelers' tales centered on Naples, that show how tomatoes where common part of the diet of the Lazzaroni, i.e. the poor and often homeless of the time, already in the second half of the XVIII century. One could discuss about the term "general acceptance", but let's not forget that the lower class made the majority of the population back then.

As for the rest of Italy, that's quite another story and the XIX century might even be too early. My grandmother, born and raised in Mantua at the start of the XX century, had never used tomatoes in any other form than tomato paste (and sparingly at that) untill after WWII.

[vserna]

There's a historical reason for the very early arrival of tomatoes to Naples, while they were ignored elsewhere in Italy: the kingdom of Naples belonged to the kingdom of Aragón and to Spain between 1443 and 1713, so that tomatoes naturally reached it from Mexico as rapidly as they reached Seville and the rest of southern Spain.

[Pizza Napoletana]

I may add that there is actually a cookbook from 1600's that was recently re-published in Naples that report a recipe for tomatoes....

[albiston]

I may add that there is actually a cookbook from 1600's that was recently re-published in Naples that report a recipe for tomatoes....

←

Intriguing. Could you give us a bit more info? One of Vincenzo Corrado's books maybe?

[Pizza Napoletana]

I may add that there is actually a cookbook from 1600's that was recently re-published in Naples that report a recipe for tomatoes....

←

Intriguing. Could you give us a bit more info? One of Vincenzo Corrado's books maybe?

←

We have talked about this book in the Ragu thread some time ago. It was found in the Archive of Catel Nuovo (Maschio Angioino) Castle in Naples not to long ago. It basically change all it has been written before about Neapolitan cusine and the fact that Corrado was the first to write a recipe including tomatoes (we now know that it was actually almost 100 years later). It has been a key bibliography for my research on pizza napoletana.

Ciao

[Eden]

We have talked about this book in the Ragu thread some time ago. It  was found in the Archive of Catel Nuovo (Maschio Angioino) Castle in Naples not to long ago. It basically change all it has been written before about Neapolitan cusine and the fact that Corrado was the first to write a recipe including tomatoes (we now know that it was actually almost 100 years later). It has been a key bibliography for my research on pizza napoletana.

are you referring to Antonio Latini's 1692 Lo Scalco alla moderna? That is the earliest italian text I found reference to when going back through the Ragu thread. If there's another ealier source I'd love to hear about it!

Unfortunately I do not have the full text of Latini, only a few recipes, but for those interested, Ken Abala has a translation of Latini's "Spanish Tomato Sauce" recipe in his "Food in Early Modern Europe"

on a side note, I have read what I believe to be the earliest recipes titled as "Pizza" (in Scappi, c. 1570) but they are nothing like what we know as pizza today, and I would be very interested to know when you find the transition to something like the modern Pizza Napolitana.

[Pizza Napoletana]

are you referring to Antonio Latini's 1692 Lo Scalco alla moderna? 

on a side note, I have read what I believe to be the earliest recipes titled as "Pizza" (in Scappi, c. 1570) but they are nothing like what we know as pizza today, and I would be very interested to know when you find the transition to something like the modern Pizza Napolitana.

←

Yes, I was referring to Latini book (of which I own a copy in Italian) but as I said in the Ragu thread, abotanist talked about the strange custom for neapolitan to eat tomatoes much earlier.....

On the side note, I have many reference to pizza in Campania bibliography since about 1000's.

However it is important to note that I believe the TRUE PIZZA NAPOLETANA is about a special "crust" and simple topping and do not necessaryly need tomato. Pizza Napoletana is about a special soft dough, baked in the hottest possible neapolitan pizza oven Forno Napoletano for about 45-60 seconds (90 tops). Well there are several reference that make this pizza exist since about 1660 and I would say that if people wrote about it then, the same exact product was made at least 100 years before (and I mean different from Focaccias and Schiacciatas).

Edited April 10, 2006 by Pizza Napoletana (log)