The Progressive Wine List

[Craig Camp]

The Progressive Wine List

Do you like this idea of the a wine list divided by style as compared to geography? Everytime I see one I find wines grouped together that IMO do not match.

Edited March 17, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[Ron Johnson]

Craig, this might be a good question for the Andrea Immer Q&A. I believe she is an advocate of wine lists divided by varietal. A concept I find a little odd when one could have a Rosemount Shiraz on the same page as a Jasmin Cote Rotie.

[tommy]

i generally like it.

[Ron Johnson]

i generally like it.

which? by varietal or progressive?

[GordonCooks]

I prefer a geographical list because I pretty much know what wine I wish to drink that evening. I feel that progressive list sells more wine for the average restaurant because it's more suited to the neophyte wine drinker. Ideally - a progressive list with a geographical Captain's list works for me.

Edited March 17, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[tommy]

i generally like it.

which? by varietal or progressive?

progressive.

[zinfan]

I think that, unless you have only wine geeks coming in for dinner, a list divided by style is the most effective. Does your average Joe know that he could find a nice sauvignon blanc in: Loire Valley Whites, Australian Whites, New Zealand Whites, Californian Whites and Bordeaux Whites?? And why should he (or me, for that matter) have to turn so many pages just to find all of the sauvignon blancs??? When I go to dinner, I usually know what kind (varietal) of wine I'm looking for, so I'd just as soon find them all in one place. Even if that oak-bomb Aussie shiraz is on the same page with the smokey, olive-y Cote Rotie that you've been eyeing......

The most intimidating thing about European wines for most people is that they simply don't realize that wines over there are named after the place that they come from while wines over here are named after the kind of grape that makes up at least 75% of the wine. So, you'll sell a lot more Sonoma chardonnay then White Burgundy if you don't let the people know that White Burgundy is, indeed, chardonnay. Ditto Bordeaux with cabernet and merlot. Once people understand this, then they can start to explore Old-World wines without a crutch like a winelist divided by styles.

[Beachfan]

I overall like it because I like to comment on the assembler's thougths on what is similar. I am usually reading it for pleasure since I BYO whenever I can (as long as the restaurant welcomes it).

If I'm buying, I'm rarely buying based on geography. I'm more often buying on the basis of "relative bargain".

I also think it serves the majority of patrons best.

[Yaacov]

The only way to organize a wine list for both the masses and wine geeks is by color, and then by price. Those 2 pieces of information are by far the most important.

As an aside, we went to Lupa on Saturday and sat at the bar. Lupa's wine list is very good, but is organized by regions (Toscana, Marche, Lazio, etc.). Even someone with a casual knowledge of Italian wines might know that Tuscany and Piemonte are different regions, but that information is fairly useless when trying to find a good wine for a good price. The couple next to me asked about a Petit Verdot on the list and the bartender responded that the wine was "medium-bodied with some spice and good fruit." They said "okay, we'll try it." I thought to myself, that description would probably fit 95% of the wines on the list (whites included!).

-yb

[tommy]

The only way to organize a wine list for both the masses and wine geeks is by color, and then by price.

i don't know about that. i fancy myself as someone in between those two descriptions, and i like a progressive wine list. usually.

wine geeks know what to look for, regardless of the grouping. at least, they say they do.

[Wilfrid]

Zinfan, maybe it depends what you're used to. Many people raised in Europe will know the wine they like by geographical source rather than by varietal. I bet a lot of people who know they like a Bordeaux or a Cotes du Rhones couldn't tell you the varietals involved.

[Ron Johnson]

I prefer reverse chronological.

[Yaacov]

The only way to organize a wine list for both the masses and wine geeks is by color, and then by price.

i don't know about that. i fancy myself as someone in between those two descriptions, and i like a progressive wine list. usually.

wine geeks know what to look for, regardless of the grouping. at least, they say they do.

Tommy:

I'll admit to posting my hard-and-fast rule intentially simplistic in order to get some conversation on the topic (i've never actually found a wine list like that). But I stand by my basic premise that most diners (by far) decide what color they're having and then what price they're willing to spend.

-yb

[tommy]

Tommy:

I'll admit to posting my hard-and-fast rule intentially simplistic in order to get some conversation on the topic (i've never actually found a wine list like that).  But I stand by my basic premise that most diners (by far) decide what color they're having and then what price they're willing to spend.

-yb

Yaacov, most lists are like that already, to some extend. prices go from lower to higher, grouped by region.

i'm not sure how that fact fits into this discussion, however.

i think i know a bit more about wine than the average consumer. and the average consumer is the person going to most restaurants. however, given my choice, i like a progressive wine list.

edited for speeling.

Edited March 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[hollywood]

however, given my choice, i like a progressive wine list.

Or a no corkage policy.

[tommy]

i pefer base 16.

[hollywood]

i pefer base 16.

Sounds close, but no cigar.

[carpet bagger]

Craig, I like Beachfan for the most part BYO. Having said that I probably still prefer the list should be progressive. The reason is, like varietals as described by Rob Johnson, can taste very different. For example the South Australian Shiraz more in your face fruit and the Victorian Shiraz which can be more like the olive of the Rhone. I would suggest progressive and encourage that diners check with the wine steward for closer direction.

[Craig Camp]

The only way to organize a wine list for both the masses and wine geeks is by color, and then by price.

i don't know about that. i fancy myself as someone in between those two descriptions, and i like a progressive wine list. usually.

wine geeks know what to look for, regardless of the grouping. at least, they say they do.

Tommy:

I'll admit to posting my hard-and-fast rule intentially simplistic in order to get some conversation on the topic (i've never actually found a wine list like that). But I stand by my basic premise that most diners (by far) decide what color they're having and then what price they're willing to spend.

-yb

I think this is the fact. Most people spend more time looking at the right of the page than the left.

[Craig Camp]

Craig, I like Beachfan for the most part BYO. Having said that I probably still prefer the list should be progressive. The reason is, like varietals as described by Rob Johnson, can taste very different. For example the South Australian Shiraz more in your face fruit and the Victorian Shiraz which can be more like the olive of the Rhone. I would suggest progressive and encourage that diners check with the wine steward for closer direction.

You and beachfan must live in California - the only place I can think of where BYO is widely accepted.

[Steve Plotnicki]

All wine lists are useless if you aren't expert because they do not adequately explain which wines to pair with which foods.

[Craig Camp]

All wine lists are useless if you aren't expert because they do not adequately explain which wines to pair with which foods.

Steve - Is a sommelier the only way to deal with this situation or can the list be constructed in such a way that it helps consumers?

[tommy]

All wine lists are useless if you aren't expert because they do not adequately explain which wines to pair with which foods.

i can't think of anything that adequately points out the absurdity of this statement. it's a good thing i know that the only reason he said it is to get into a big discussion on "p-ism," as the indian spicing routine is winding down.

Edited March 18, 2003 by tommy (log)

[=Mark]

Obviously wine lists are for tourists...

[Bux]

Progressive lists can be misleading as there's a fair amount of subjectivity involved and subdivisions of style important to one diner are immaterial to another. Varietal lists can be quite unreliable and although apparently "truthful" can mislead the neophyte into believing all chardonnays taste alike or at least have something in common besides the grape. Learning that Chablis is chardonnay just like your favorite California chardonnay may not be useful information.

The right hand column is very useful information and no matter how the lists is arranged, I am likely to look at several sections to see what's available at the price I think I want to spend as well as above and below looking for some special deal. There are some really great classic combinations of food and wine, but I find there's usually more than one way to go with most foods. Just as a steak can be enjoyed with a sauce that's deeply wine flavored, just a reduction of pan juices, or a buttery sauce, there are a number of wines that suit my taste. Moreover, when dining at a table of four or more, the wine is generally going to be somewhat of a compromise anyway. One of the things I enjoy is reading articles in food and wine magazines where a panel of experts chooses the perfect wine for a dish. I appreciate it very much when the various experts don't agree precisely and even more when they don't even agree on a color. In many cases, I will see a single expert choose a red as best, a white as second choice and then another red as acceptable.

All of that avoids the question. When I first came across lists that were not by place of origin, they made me uncomfortable and I had to sort them in my mind. I've gotten used to them and they seem apporpriate in some restaurants. I suppose I would not find them appropriate to Ducasse or Daniel. In either case, I will peruse more than one section and it's no longer an issue most of the time. A good sommelier is always a plus.