Spices: For or against?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Again, I am describing what is going to happen in fine restaurants.

What I see happening is that western chefs are expanding their cuisine by incorporating Asian spicing techniques. Asian cuisine appears to be far more static and unto itself. Except for Japanese cuisine which seems to have a keen interest in the techniques. But when Asian cuisine does incorporate western influences, it's the a western concept of balance that seems to have been adopted.

[Jonathan Day]

If the implication is that some Western concept of balance is now invading Asia through a process of "globalisation" (a process which many would argue has had a negative effect on world cuisines, but set that aside), this again seems contrary to fact.

Chinese and Japanese cuisines each have highly developed concepts of balance, extending not just to chilli-heat levels, but also to other dimensions: temperatures, textures, dryness vs moisture and the like. I am out of my depth here, but I believe that some of these originate in the Taoist notions of the bodily humours. My point is that the Chinese and Japanese have not been sitting around waiting for a Western chef to arrive to teach them how to balance flavours. Balance has been a theme in both cuisines for many years.

With some exceptions, the Western use of Asian techniques has been somewhat crude; for example, I have seen many recipes from 3-star French chefs, published in French cooking magazines, that call for tinned curry powders.

[Wilfrid]

Again, I am describing what is going to happen in fine restaurants.

It's unlikely that the small peloton of upscale French chefs of whom you approve are about to start using large quantities of capsicum in their dishes. But not for the reasons you give. Capsicum does not necessarily mask flavors. And indeed, there are some high end restaurants in the States where some highly spiced dishes are served - Norman's, the Mansion at Turtle Creek. I can't see any a priori reason why chefs interested in providing intense sensory experiences - a Liebrandt for instance - would avoid fiery spicing.

Asian cuisine appears to be far more static and unto itself. Except for Japanese cuisine which seems to have a keen interest in the techniques. But when Asian cuisine does incorporate western influences, it's the a western concept of balance that seems to have been adopted.

I am floundering to understand what a Western "concept of balance" is. I understand what Jonathan is referring to when he talks about Chinese and Japanese cooking, but I can't apply the same idea to Western cooking. Perhaps all that is meant is "light spicing".

Edited March 18, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[Fat Guy]

What some might call balanced, others might call bland and tentative.

[Wilfrid]

Hee hee, helps if it's soft and sloppy too, right?

clickety

[hollywood]

What some might call balanced, others might call bland and tentative.

Exactly.

And yet so evanescent.

Edited March 18, 2003 by hollywood (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

What some might call balanced, others might call bland and tentative.

This is just relativism. There is such a thing as too salty, too peppery and too spicy. The market will level out at a standard. I predict that restaurants like Union Pacific, Nobu, Tabla, are indicative of what the standard is going to become. Of course this standard varies by cuisine, and Wilfrid's example of southwestern cuisine always being spicier (hotter) then Provencal will always hold true. But that doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of my statement.

[Stone]

For.

[hollywood]

But that doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of my statement.

Yeah.

[Wilfrid]

This is just relativism. There is such a thing as too salty, too peppery and too spicy. The market will level out at a standard. I predict that restaurants like Union Pacific, Nobu, Tabla, are indicative of what the standard is going to become. Of course this standard varies by cuisine, and Wilfrid's example of southwestern cuisine always being spicier (hotter) then Provencal will always hold true. But that doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of my statement.

Totally mystified. Union Pacific, Nobu and Tabla will be...I don't know...typical of how spices will be used in the future restaurants at moderately upscale restaurants? That's my best read.

By the way, the fresh wasabi at Nobu will blow your head off.

[Fat Guy]

The market will level out at a standard.

That, my friend, is what we mean by relativism. Just in case you were wondering.

There is such a thing as too salty, too peppery and too spicy.

And there is such a thing as too bland, too tentative. So who gets to decide? You think whatever the consumer decides to buy is good (aka relativism), whereas I think people who know what they're talking about get to decide what's good regardless of whether a million people buy one thing and one person buys another thing (aka the application of real standards).

[Steve Plotnicki]

And there is such a thing as too bland, too tentative. So who gets to decide? You think whatever the consumer decides to buy is good (aka relativism), whereas I think people who know what they're talking about get to decide what's good regardless of whether a million people buy one thing and one person buys another thing (aka the application of real standards).

Fat Guy - The market isn't relativism because over time it is effiecient. And the restaurants that cook properly stay in business and the ones that don't go away. But, and this is where we differ, I have confidence that over time the market gets it right within a range of acceptability. You obviously don't believe that. You think the market is stupid and people will always choose incorrectly. That's because you are an elitest.

Why am I arguing about this? I was just hanging with Paul Oakenfold, who used to work for me many years ago, in the lobby of my hotel. Just thought I'd get a little namedropping in there.

[tommy]

Why am I arguing about this?

why not?

[Wilfrid]

Fat Guy - The market isn't relativism because over time it is effiecient.

A classic unverifiable proposition. If you don't like the market's opinion of Britney Spears today, that's because it's efficient over time. Ten years, a hundred years, who knows, but one day it'll get it right.

[Jonathan Day]

Fat Guy, get with the programme. It's very simple. Repeat after me:

"Whatever I like is what's best for me; whatever you like is what's best for you." --> relativism

"Whatever most people choose is what's best. The market decides. Hence McDonald's beats every 3 star restaurant, hands down." --> popularism

"Whatever a select group of international gourmets will pay most for is what's best. The select group of international gourmets is selected by Steve Plotnicki" --> Plotnickiism.

There you have it.

[Fat Guy]

The market isn't relativism because over time it is effiecient.

Efficient at determining what people of average taste within a given market segment prefer.

you are an elitest.

You fucking bet I am, and so are you. The difference is that I believe in an elite of smart people who know what they're talking about, and you believe in . . . what?

[Steve Plotnicki]

A classic unverifiable proposition. If you don't like the market's opinion of Britney Spears today, that's because it's efficient over time. Ten years, a hundred years, who knows, but one day it'll get it right.

But this is completely right. If Brittany Spears has any redeeming value, her CD's will sell 20 years from now. If she doesn't, they will sell zip. I can demonstrate countless rock acts, let alone pop acts, who do not sell anymore, even though they were immensely popular in their time. Jefferson Airplane, Ten Years After, etc. And with pop acts the disparity is even greater. Just look at whose version of Good Golly Miss Molly they play today. Pat Boone or Little Richard and who had the hit at the time.

[tommy]

the market has grown to ignore jefferson airplane and TYA. oh, and about 99.99% of pop or rock bands that ever recorded a note.

[Wilfrid]

You missed the point - a rare occurrence, I know . How do you tell when the market has made up its mind. Forget Ten years After (I had). At the end of the nineteenth century, Melville was on the scrap heap. Food: maybe ten years from now, nobody will be eating spicy food in upscale French restaurants. In thirty years' time, who knows? You are proposing a measure which simply has no utility.

Come on - jump one way or the other. An elite of experts or the actual market in real time. I dares ya.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes but they are amzaingly reliable about remembering the good bands aren't they? In fact, they ae amazing reliable about rediscovering bands that were overlooked in their time.

[Priscilla]

Would it be topical to invoke the Spice Girls here. My favorite Spice Girl is Posh Spice.

[Wilfrid]

Scary. My favorite, I mean.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Good answer Priscilla.

You fucking bet I am, and so are you. The difference is that I believe in an elite of smart people who know what they're talking about, and you believe in . . . what?

Fat Guy - That's P-ism. I believe in the smart group of people deciding. The smart people, from what I have seen, have chosen Tabla over Diwan. Why is that wrong? How would you decide who is in your group of elitists? Mine is democratic. All you need is money to get in the group. Are you giving people a test for intellect?

[hollywood]

Yes but they are amzaingly reliable about remembering the good bands aren't they? In fact, they ae amazing reliable about rediscovering bands that were overlooked in their time.

Who dat?

http://archive.greenpeace.org/~comms/nukes/chernob/

Nevermind.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Come on - jump one way or the other. An elite of experts or the actual market in real time. I dares ya.

Experts first, then the market in real time. It is rare when the market moves before the experts but it does happen.