Spices: For or against?

[Adam Balic]

Several people (well actually Steve P., but it is the same thing) have expressed the idea that many cultures cuisines are overly spiced. In European cooking spices were much used as a flavouring, to add interest to the food, rather then to cover the flavour of bad meat, however, they fell out of favour and are not commonly seen in savoury cooking. The period in which the use of spice disappeared in European cooking co-insides with the 'refinement' of European cuisine. The two may or may not be related.

Now it is the funky, groovy, 21st C. and we are all being exposed to the cuisine of cultures that weren't lucky enough to be refined (some of us are even from these countries!) and they sometimes use spice.

I like spice. I think that the spice can bring out other flavours in a particular ingredient, that is not necessarily the flavour of the spice or of the spiced ingredient. (eg. Cinnamon changes the flavour of tomato-based dishes, without making the dish taste of cinnamon).

The question is: Is the use of spice in savoury cooking a good thing or does it detract from the main event, which is the 'true flavour' of the base ingredient?

[Jinmyo]

Adam, I like spices too!

But I'm on the middle ground. It depends upon the context of the meal as a whole, the ingredients, and the skill with which they're used.

[Adam Balic]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Just because somebody tosses a handful some cinnamon in a lamb stew and calls it "Morroccan" doesn't mean it is a good thing.

The point is, could spices be used more often in groovy, funky, cutting-edge type European cuisine, in a way that wasn't cliched and inappropriate?

[Miss J]

I like spices. Obviously they shouldn't be used to "cover" poor ingredients or bad cooking, but when they're used harmoniously they're wonderful. I would almost always select a well-spiced dish over a beautifully cooked plain, with a few notable suggestions (steak, perfectly fresh seafood, very ripe tomatoes).

This is why I love SE Asian and Sichuan food so much.

[AdamLawrence]

There is one very interesting question that is implied by some of Steve's musing and might be interesting to test - does highly spiced food successfully showcase top-end ingredients? It would be fascinating to give two chickens to a highly skilled Indian cook, one a poulet de Bresse or similar luxury bird, the other a more ordinary specimen, have him prepare both in the same way and thus determine whether the spice regime highlights or masks the superior flavour/texture of the better bird.

Adam

[Adam Balic]

Do you think that an ingredient like Sichuan peppercorns could be used to prepare a non-Sichuan dish, in a way that wouldn't seem trite or be immediately labeled as 'fushion'? Is there a prejudice in Western diners against using spices out side of their 'proper' place?

[Miss J]

Do you think that an ingredient like Sichuan peppercorns could be used to prepare a non-Sichuan dish, in a way that wouldn't seem trite or be immediately labeled as 'fushion'?

What, like my absent-minded attempt to make a Sichuan peppercorn crust for salmon using my super-active peppercorns?

Adam, it's not nice. Trust me.

In all seriousness, I don't think intelligent, complex use of spices can just be grafted onto Western style food. It takes a long time to evolve a cuisine, and cultures develop specific techniques and spice combinations through trial-and-error. That's why fushion's such a tempremental beast: when it's pulled off it can be stunning, but all too often it's a mishmash.

[macrosan]

In European cooking spices were much used as a flavouring, to add interest to the food, rather then to cover the flavour of bad meat ...

That is at the very least an arguable point. I suspect there is more concession than critique in suggesting that European meat was not in need of a "cover up".

The period in which the use of spice disappeared in European cooking co-insides with the 'refinement' of European cuisine. The two may or may not be related.

Wishful thinking, I suspect, to support a position

I think that the spice can bring out other flavours in a particular ingredient, that is not necessarily the flavour of the spice or of the spiced ingredient.

OK, here comes the gut of the debate. Is this hypothesis really supportable ? How can it be that a spice "brings out" a hidden flavour in another ingredient ? A spice flavour might interact with an ingredient flavour to make a brand new flavour; I can see that. But it seems to me coy to suggest that the new flavour comes primarily from the ingredient, as though to say that is somehow more worthy than admitting you're actually using spice to cover the flavour of an ingredient, or to provide a major flavour in the overall dish. I have never heard it suggested that spices are "flavour enhancers" like MSG. My instinct is that all a spice can do is to add it's own flavour to a dish. Indeed that's why chefs use any particular spice, is it not ?

When I have lamb roasted with rosemary, I can taste rosemary and I can taste lamb which is different from plain lamb, it is rosemary-flavoured lamb. If I have rice with saffron, I can taste saffron-flavoured rice. If I have a sauce made with spices, all I can taste are the spices; and I have to admit that my palate wouldn't often allow me to separately identify three different spices in a sauce. It seems to me that this is how spiced dishes are supposed to taste.

The question is: Is the use of spice in savoury cooking a good thing or does it detract from the main event, which is the 'true flavour' of the base ingredient?

So my answer is that I don't accept the premise that the main event is the "true flavour" of a base ingredient. Plain roast lamb is cooked to taste like lamb. Lamb roasted with rosemary is cooked to taste of rosemary in addition to lamb. And so on. Spices change the overall flavour, or combination of flavours, of a dish; they are intended to do so; it is right that they should do so. Spices become as much a part of the "main event" as the food they're cooked with.

[Adam Balic]

(Adam Balic @ Mar 14 2003, 01:29 PM)

In European cooking spices were much used as a flavouring, to add interest to the food, rather then to cover the flavour of bad meat ...

That is at the very least an arguable point. I suspect there is more concession than critique in suggesting that European meat was not in need of a "cover up". 

Martin, to my knowledge there is only one historical European cooking book that states the amount of spice to be used per dish (And older man writing for his in-experienced teenage wife) and in this case the amounts used would only add a subtle seasoning. How representative this is I don't know, hoever, in recipes of the period that state they are for bad-meat, they use a vinegar soaking method as the cover-up.

I didn't mean to suggest that spices can bring out a flavour of a second ingredient that would not normally be tasted (although I'm not ruling this out), more that there is a synergy of the two.

As for spices being used to for spice flavour only, well who can taste anchovies in Wostershire sauce or for that matter, anchovie flavour in a leg of lamb that has been larded with them ? I often note that the particuler flavours present in spiced dish are not of the base spice flavour alone. Why should it be?

Edited March 14, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[Bux]

I would not be so bold as to separate out spices from that which makes a cuisine whole, but since you've already done that, I would point out that the chefs the world over are learning the techniques that make French food "refined," while French cooks are relearning how to use the spices that once drove European history.

[Adam Balic]

I would not be so bold as to separate out spices from that which makes a cuisine whole, but since you've already done that, I would point out that the chefs the world over are learning the techniques that make French food "refined," while French cooks are relearning how to use the spices that once drove European history.

Bux - just playing a hypothetical, not actually my view. I didn't mention the "F" word, but within that country where is the use of spice? Langoustines with curry powder?

[Elissa]

Somewhere I read that wasabi might have been used with sushi/sashimi to help kill parasites or other bacteria in uncooked fish. Could this be the case? Or is it rather used, as Jinmyo might say, for deliciousness? In my experience the difference between freshly grated wasabi and the more standard ready-made green paste kind could not have a greater effect on Japanese cuisine. Which leads me to wonder if the 'main event' here isn't harmony, and the symphonic participation of 'spices' with their flesh.

Ginger and other roots, such as galangal, in addition to the unique flavors with which they enrich food, positively teem with vitamins and nutrients that cannot be found elsewhere. Kaffir lime leaves always taste just like themselves, as does lemongrass: but O the harmonies they achieve in concert. Yet add them to most western dishes and their flavors stumble and protrude.

What too of Vietnamese cuisine, heavily influenced by the French?

[Gavin Jones]

Does salt count? It is notoriously heavily used in French cuisine to render unbalanced the taste. The logical conclusion of that abuse is of course the little pool of marmite that accompanies one's underspiced vulgar lump of protein.

And sugar.

David's 'Spices, Salt and Aromatics in the English Kitchen' takes the point of view that classic English cold-cuts should be viewed as anexpression of a sicing regimen.

The revipe for 'Qoorma'she gives from Col Kenney-Herbert's books interestingly suggests a line to the pre-reformation prevalence of almonds in meat cooking.

[Wilfrid]

Can garlic or anchovies bring out, emphasize or enhance an ingredients flavor? I think so. I don't contend that they're spices. I am thinking about the spice question and can't make up my mind.

Personally, I would prefer spices to keep their big fat noses out of traditional European cooking, but I relish them in the appropriate context.

[Adam Balic]

Ginger and other roots, such as galangal, in addition to the unique flavors with which they enrich food, positively teem with vitamins and nutrients that cannot be found elsewhere. Kaffir lime leaves always taste just like themselves, as does lemongrass: but O the harmonies they achieve in concert. Yet add them to most western dishes and their flavors stumble and protrude.

I believe that lemon grass was used pretty heavly by some French Chefs during the 1980's, became a bit a symbol of 'un-fashionable fushion'. Kaffir lime leaves, I'm not so sure. Ginger and galangal were both used extensively in European cooking. Ginger is still used in some cases. Think that the 'out of placeness in Western cooking' as mostly a perception thing.

Almonds as a thickerning agent, went out of fashion after the Reformation, as did the use of much spicing (seen as 'Catholic' in England for instance), however as the reformation had different effects on different countries, it is difficult to make to many generalisations about the effect of the Reformation on the use of spices. Ground almonds are still used in Spain to thicken soups and stews through.

[Adam Balic]

Can garlic or anchovies bring out, emphasize or enhance an ingredients flavor?  I think so.  I don't contend that they're spices.  I am thinking about the spice question and can't make up my mind.

Personally, I would prefer spices to keep their big fat noses out of traditional European cooking, but I relish them in the appropriate context.

"Spice" can me many things to many people. Mostly, ground powder sold in little jars next to the freeze dried dill I guess.

What traditional European cooking are you speaking of? I would find it difficult to imagine Trad. Eur. cooking without spices. For the spice mixtures used to cure meat, to mace and nutmeg used in many English savour dishes (last cry of the 18th C.), to the use of peppercorns at most tables. Pity the goulash without its paprika and caraway seeds.

Edited March 14, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[g.johnson]

Can garlic or anchovies bring out, emphasize or enhance an ingredients flavor?  I think so.  I don't contend that they're spices.  I am thinking about the spice question and can't make up my mind.

Personally, I would prefer spices to keep their big fat noses out of traditional European cooking, but I relish them in the appropriate context.

What about saffron?

[Wilfrid]

There are spices which are traditionally used in European cooking - members of the pepper and capsicum families for example, he said vaguely? - which is fine. I have yet to really enjoy the intrusion of "foreign" spices.

[Ron Johnson]

Given the proliferation of chain restaurants in the United States that seem to specialize in extraordinarily bland food, I would say that most Americans do not like spices in their food. Maybe this is Emeril's contribution to American culture, to like spices. Bam!

[fifi]

Interesting debate. For me, the whole question revolves around my expectations. I adore Indian food and always look forward to the complex use of spices. Thai, Indonesion, etc adds the exotically herbal to the mix and that is what I expect. Understanding the ebb and flow of the use of spice in European cuisine has fascinating roots in history that are worth exploring before approaching any particular cuisine.

IMHO, the celebration of an ingredient in it's purest state is yet another approach to cuisine in its own right and should not be judged in the same context as cuisines that are rooted in the use of spices. Heightened awareness of other cultures and cuisine is leading to sometimes interesting and sometimes disasterous experiments and those need to be judged purely on the final outcome... does it taste good? For that reason, I approach "fusion" with the same expectations that I would a roulette table. I have a recipe for a pork ragout, cooked with cinnamon sticks and finished with cream, that everyone loves. Does that make it Moroccan, or whatever? I doubt it, but WHO CARES!

But, if Ruth's Chris rubbed my steak with a Thai curry paste before grilling, trying a fusion twist on chimmichuri technique, I would throw the sizzling platter at the chef.

It's all about expectations. Altering those expectations to fit the occasion is part of the fun.

[Adam Balic]

Given the proliferation of chain restaurants in the United States that seem to specialize in extraordinarily bland food, I would say that most Americans do not like spices in their food.  Maybe this is Emeril's contribution to American culture, to like spices.  Bam!

What about KFC?

[g.johnson]

Though it's hard to imagine French food benefitting from the addition of the more pungent spices like cumin, I could imagine a good French chef doing something interesting with cardamoms.

[Adam Balic]

There are spices which are traditionally used in European cooking - members of the pepper and capsicum families for example, he said vaguely? - which is fine.  I have yet to really enjoy the intrusion of "foreign" spices.

Nope, I don't get any understanding about what you are talking about. "Foreign Spices", sounds like somthing my grandmother would say and I know you aren't my grandmother as she doesn't eat testicles (to my knowledge).

[Ron Johnson]

What about KFC?

Interestingly, KFC, and its parent corporation, YUM!, is headquartered in my hometown. Not to mention that I met the Colonel himself when I was a kid.

That being said, KFC may use 11 herbs and spices, but they are in such minute quantity as to be barely noticeable. There are some fast food chicken chains that make a spicy chicken, but they stem from the cajun influence of Louisiana. Altnough, it has been a while since I last dined there, I would consider KFC to be pretty bland.

[Wilfrid]

Adam, I can confirm I am not your grandmother. Putting "foreign" in quote marks was just a short-hand way of emphasizing I meant foreign to the cuisine, as in external to the cuisine. I didn't mean "foreign" as in "ethnic". But the short-hand was wasted because here I am explaining it all...