Whose Indian Food Really Stands Out?

[Suzanne F]

In fact Jaybee sent me me an email about it that said;

. . . The Bread Bar at Tabla was a complete peasant surprise and I will definitely return there.

And here I thought Tabla, by virtue of being on the expensive side, was more "haute." Live and learn.

[Toby]

It occurred to me that maybe these dishes, on the Tabla Bread Bar menu, were actually more rooted within the sphere of traditional Indian cuisine than we had thought.

Regarding the premise, it was the baby bok choy that really caught my eye -- and of course the beef -- not the lotus root. I just bought a lotus root a month or so ago for use in an Indian recipe. And of course we could keep extending the reasoning process to include just about anything. Yes there are Indian dishes that use beef. Yes it would be logical for an Indian chef to use bok choy were that the locally available baby green in a new place. For all I know, they have bok choy in India too. But if you take any sophisticated, great cuisine -- Indian, Chinese, French, Italian -- you're going to find that they can all be intellectualized to the point where any dish is part of the cuisine. Braising is a technique in all these cuisines. Beef can be an ingredient. The spice traders universalized the relevant spices long before the United States even existed. So to some extent the question of authenticity is a meaningless one. At the same time, I do think the dishes described from the Tabla Bread Bar -- especially when viewed in the context of what I know, based on numerous visits, to be the cooking style there -- can fairly be labeled as atypical of classic Indian cuisine. That somebody might be preparing similar dishes in India, or that an obscure regional recipe bears some resemblance to what Floyd is doing, would really in my opinion be beside the point. I'm happy to be corrected, though: if these are popular dishes with wide audiences in India, and if Tabla is preparing them in a similar style, I'd accept that information and say I was wrong.

What exactly are you saying, anyway?

Bringing the Bread Bar at Tabla into this thread was simply to say that, at a recent dinner, the food served was tastier, better balanced, and more consistent than dinner at Diwan.

When I went to Diwan several months ago on a Sunday night, I had called ahead and was assured that the chef would be there. However, he wasn't, and I later found out, he's not there on Sunday nights. "Suvir's chutney" was a bland tomato sauce with little pieces of tasteless tomatoes in it. There were no shrimp in the crab appetizer. As I said, the lamb stew we had was bland, boring and gloppy. We have talked about the necessity for a chef to have a trained staff that can replicate his food even when he's not there at length on egullet. And the meal cost more than the food at Tabla Bread Bar, which was, for me at least, innovative, light and tasty, as well as being recognizably Indian.

[tommy]

Bringing the Bread Bar at Tabla into this thread was simply to say that, at a recent dinner, the food served was tastier, better balanced, and more consistent than dinner at Diwan.

.

where's that confounded tabla bread bar thread when you need it anway.

[rstarobi]

Steve

Comparing Diwan with Tabla is missing the point a tad as they are both trying to different things ( with varying degrees of success ) and I would not even recognise tabla as an Indian restaurant. 

Better comparisons ,and you are in the position to make them, are between Tabla and The Cinnamon Club in London ( both fail equally in my opinon as the concept is flawed and the execution of the dishes inept ) and Diwan with an equally mid - high end place ( I am not sure there are any places in Manhattan that are at that level, Perhaps Nirvana, but that was a grave disappointment also ) such as Zaika or to be more fair the Red Fort ( MId Level )

I would not say that Diwan's dishes were "over spiced"  they were however inexpertly spiced.  nina is incorrect in saying that food from India lacks subtlety.  I cooked, in my own inexpert way, two dishes for her at a recent supper which showed the breadth of possibilities. She is just eating at the wrong places.    The butter chicken dish I had at Diwan was bland and lacking in the necessary spice.  I found its use of spicing to be the level of a fairly standard UK curry house.  Fine, but not worthy of pages and pages on Egullet.

Of the two, I would return to Diwan before Tabla, but perhaps only if Suvir was ordering ( and paying )

S

Simon,

I haven't been there, but would a more apt comparison to Diwan in the UK be the Bombay Brasserie? At least in terms of simple food presented excellently, rather than complex food present haphazardly.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I haven't been there, but would a more apt comparison to Diwan in the UK be the Bombay Brasserie? At least in terms of simple food presented excellently, rather than complex food present haphazardly.

Checking in from sunny Miami Brach which is a relief after the crap winter we've been having in NY. Axtually I think Tamarind in London is more like Diwan. Bombay Brasserie has no equal. Classic food but the decor is a one of a kind,

[Simon Majumdar]

Bombay Brasserie, while not my favourite place in London is about a million miles above what I experienced at Diwan.

The food there is far from simple. It is quite complex, but reasonably prepared. My reasons for reservation are mainly down to service

S

[anil]

This is amazing - Within a span of one day + a discussion about two different restaurants and it distills down to parsing spices ??? Much of these agruements hold no interest to many of us Because the cluelessness factor and signal-to-noise level is very high.

If Tabla had changed its name to say Drums would it matter ? Comparing Tabla and Diwan is going to crop up because many believe Tabla to be indian - It is not.

I have not eaten in any egullet bauquets - I have been to Diwan and Tabla about half-a-dozen times. I take folks who cannot absorb indian cuisine, but are fascinated by spices and aroma some of the preparations give out - So Tabla to them is better indian food.

To many indians, French food is bland; and needs to grow up and become bolder; To the French, the opposite - Fact of the matter is it is an uninteresting exercise based on cultural bias.

Many bigoted indians, would also say that Indian culture is thousands of years old, and inhabitants of France in that era were mere savages. Which is also an uninteresting excercise in inciting the population Having travelled extensively in both countries over the decades, I know that true native clued folks from both counties would merely shake their head at the things going on in this thread.

Edited March 16, 2003 by anil (log)

[Robert Schonfeld]

true native clued folks from both counties would merely shake their head at the things  going on in this thread.

A made a similar point in the context of another discussion like this one more than a year ago. I think that some participants just favor argumentativeness over learning opportunities, and others don't, or can't, teach as well as they might. I wonder to what extent the high signal to noise ratio (or is it the other way around?) is a function of the nature of internet discussion, or to what extent it's individualized.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If Tabla had changed its name to say Drums would it matter ? Comparing Tabla and Diwan is going to crop up because many believe Tabla to be indian - It is not.

Anil - Yes but in the marketplace it is competing in, it is Indian. The protestations that it isn't, doesn't get anyone anywhere. And if they are incomparable, you are going to have to do a better job of explaining why then Fat Guy did because I assure you that all seven people are waiting to hear that answer. And the reason I know that is because I've been recieving special secret PM's from them.

[tommy]

And the reason I know that is because I've been recieving special secret PM's from them.

the sun is obviously helping you my insufferable friend.

[Stone]

If Tabla had changed its name to say Drums would it matter ? Comparing Tabla and Diwan is going to crop up because many believe Tabla to be indian - It is not.

Anil - Yes but in the marketplace it is competing in, it is Indian. The protestations that it isn't, doesn't get anyone anywhere. And if they are incomparable, you are going to have to do a better job of explaining why then Fat Guy did because I assure you that all seven people are waiting to hear that answer. And the reason I know that is because I've been recieving special secret PM's from them.

Steve has a point (although I think is repeated invocation of the "market" is usually a red herring) -- there are a number of ideas going on here, some of which involve critiquing Diwan under "Western" standards; some involve critiquing Tabla under "Indian" standards; and some just involve comparing the food at Tabla to Diwan under a purportedly neutral standard (if such a standard exists). In the latter sense, even though Tabla seems to keep saying that it's not an "Indian" restaurant, my guess is that many of the people going there think it is and although it's easy to say that they're just ignorant, that doesn't change the fact that Tabla and Diwan are two of the few examples of high-end "Indian" cuisine in the city.

And I don't think Steve really meant to say that Indian food is just about parsing spices -- at least I never took that to be the foundation of his theory. We all have to cut eachother a little slack when we're not being as precise with our words as possible, making generalizations, etc.

[Wilfrid]

Comparing Tabla with an Indian restaurant and comparing the Bread Bar at Tabla with an Indian restaurant should be kept separate. We started out with the a meal at the Bread Bar being compared with a meal at Diwan, which made some sense to me. Tabla proper is a long way from an Indian restaurant. (I'm not planning to defer to anyone on that.)

[Stone]

Tabla proper is a long way from an Indian restaurant.  (I'm not planning to defer to anyone on that.)

I think you're right. But for Steve's purposes, he's saying that they're in the same "market segment." Then you have two questions (or more): 1) should they be in the same segment; 2) how do they compare. You may be correct that they should not be in the same segment. But putting that aside, and accepting that right or wrong they are, the next question is how do the two compare. Steve says that within that market segment, applying the standards he thinks are applicable, Diwan doesn't compare well to Tabla. FG and I think Steve's conclusion stems from a presumption (conscious or otherwise) that "French" or "Western" cuising is superior. I think that's about all that's going on.

[funcook]

WILFRID IS RIGHT.

I have tried not to compar and not to compare in New England thread about Great Indian Food in Connectciut. I was helpless and ended up comapring TABLAA and DIWAN.

Bottom line they both are good, it all comes down to, how one looks at it. My comments are in that thread.

Fun

[Wilfrid]

Ah, I'm right again. Yes, Stone, we know what Steve's doing and we've explored in some depth how and why he's doing it, and I think everyone understands why the conclusions of his analyses are usually inevitable. The Tabla(not the Bread Bar)/Diwan comparison is a good example of a pointless comparison. I can't comment on Diwan, but if I wanted a conventional Indian meal, Tabla would be a waste of my time. Tabla is not a good Indian restaurant in that sense. It does, however, have other virtues, and it's possible to eat well there, especially if you don't expect an Indian meal. To suggest it indicates the future for Indian cuisine is a proffer of the deepest implausibility. And without wishing to offend, I think the discussion here is somewhat thwarted by the fact - and if I'm wrong, I apologize - that many of the participants do have a limited experience of eating in good, conventional Indian restaurants.

Edited March 16, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[anil]

The secret 199 out of 200; sending DES-3 encripted messages are in my opinion, not a useful indicator, just as using taxi-drivers as a measure of excellent ethnic food is a useless one. If I , a non-carioca; also a non-porteno; am not afraid or ashamed to put my likes and dislikes of Brazilian and Argentinian cuisine here in NYC or in their native lands in writing in gullet or any other forum - I see no reason of the others to hide

There is no final exams here; and no ! you don't get the girl in the end for being correct and right either And Of!Course we indians will not laugh (OK I don't speak for simon dada, I gather he is a bhodrolok....)

So one is -- in essense is a goan chef and a name of indian musical instrument - using indian spices - So is it Indian ? Nyet

The other is -- a rajasthani/Awadhi raised chef with the indian word for respected man - using indian igredients and indian techniques and associated concepts - It is Indian ! Da.

It is unfortunate that this discussion has even reached this far --

Edited March 16, 2003 by anil (log)

[anil]

After reading another excellent article by FM (Steve Shaw), and a quote by Jinymo sums this debae too as well --

So “Rolling something in rice and nori and calling it ‘sushi’ does not make it sushi,”explains Jinmyo Renge, Ottawa-based chef and Zen teacher, very patiently. “Risotto is not pilaf is not congee is not sushi. As [Confucius] taught, we call things by names so that we know what we are speaking of.”

Edited March 16, 2003 by anil (log)

[Stone]

It is unfortunate that this discussion has even reached this far -- 

Perhaps, but that wasn't our discussion.

[tigerwoman]

Having travelled extensively in both countries over the decades, I know that true native clued folks from both counties would merely shake their head at the things  going on in this thread.

shake shake shake

[Steve Plotnicki]

I notice we have shifted somewhat from cultural bias to cultural snobbery.

I think that the reason that Tabla and Diwan are in the same segment is that when I want a meal with Indian flavors, I would consider both. I wouldn't reach the issue of do I want a traditional meal, or a westernized version until I decide if I'm in the mood for that flavor profile. If this is a more casual use of Indian cuisine then Fat Guy or Anil has applied, well they are going to have to live with that. But I believe that this is a typical standard for people to in NYC to apply. And if I apply this standard, which is really, all cuisines start out equal, for me there are a few very common flaws in traditional Indian meals that I run into no matter where I happen to be eating them. They are typically overspicing and overcooking. In fact the dish I liked least at The Bread Bar was the tandoori hanger steak which was both overspiced and overcooked/tough. In fact I believe that all seven people there would say that why we enjoyed Tabla is they worked hard at correcting this "flaw." Now I don't know what this comment on my part has to do with cultural bias, culinary preferences, spice parsing, or any of the other things raised in this thread. Overspiced and overcooked are not as preferable as spiced correctly/moist. Of course we can spilt hairs over what spiced correctly means, but someone is going to have show why the standard the seven of us applied isn't the right one. Especially in light of Simon criticizing the spicing at Diwan.

[Tonyfinch]

I don't know the resataurants you're talking about but on "over spicing" generally-assuming that the spices being used are fresh and freshly ground AND assuming that the chefs give a damn about the spicing at all (two assumptions you sadly cannot make about the vast majority of UK High St curry houses) then spicing patterns become as much a matter of the chef/client taste as of what is and isn't "correct". Relatively very little Indian cuisine is written down compared to French and so notions of what is and isn't correct are more variable and fluid.

The analogy is not so much with salt as with herbs. I have had versions of Poulet L'Estragon in France which have been absolutely humming with tarragon and garlic. Other versions have only offered a subtle hint of the herb. We can all think of Italian dishes where the flavours of oregano and basil are singing out clearly above the other notes of the dish. Other dishes use them as undertones. Neither are "wrong" in the sense that oversalting is wrong (if the chef has overspiced in that sense then he clearly doesn't know what he's doing) but they do appeal to different palates and tastes. Most Indian restaurants in the UK serving to discrimnating Asian diners ensure that the spice programmes are pretty lusty, as well as complex and subtle. But the word "bland " is not one they wish to hear and any restaurant which toned down the spcing too much would soon be catering for Western diners only.

Maybe NY is different.

Edited March 17, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Wilfrid]

I think that the reason that Tabla and Diwan are in the same segment is that when I want a meal with Indian flavors, I would consider both. I wouldn't reach the issue of do I want a traditional meal, or a westernized version until I decide if I'm in the mood for that flavor profile.

I can't imagine anyone doing that, but if you say so... Let's get some more evidence before we conclude it's in any way typical.

I am trying to think of an analogy. If I decide I want a Thai meal, I consider Vong alongside a bunch of Thai restaurants? I don't know, I think Tabla's more remote from Indian food than Vong is from Thai food. Tabla (not the Bread Bar) offers cuisine so far removed from any mainstream Indian cooking, I don't know why we are even discussing it. Or perhaps you mean the Bread Bar.

[SobaAddict70]

I'm amazed that this thread has grown to past one page.

Tabla/TBB is not even remotely an Indian restaurant. It's influenced by Indian cuisine, but on an authentic scale, not even close. The differences people have experienced are for the most part because the audience that Floyd Cardoz and company are catering to, are not there to eat authentic Indian food -- they're there to eat reinterpretations of Indian food (although the biryanni at TBB is pretty good, I'll give them that).

The food at Diwan is to my mind, more elevated than that of most Indian restaurants in New York City. It may be that I haven't eaten at good, competent Indian places, but the food at Diwan is neither overspiced nor overcooked. For example, the lemon rice is amazing. You'd be hard pressed to find that at most Indian palaces in NYC.

btw, I failed the course on P-ism 101. Pity there isn't a remedial version.

Soba

Edited March 17, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Wilfrid]

Hey, I bet you got the question about whether simple things can be complex wrong. I always get that one wrong.

[g.johnson]

I disagree that TBB is not Indian. There some exotic touches, but it serves tandoori shrimp, chicken tikka masala (not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants) and nan.