Greek V Turkish Food

[Adam Balic]

As for Thai being accepted, it's not that controversial ingredient wise. It is chicken, beef and pork. What's so difficult to eat there? No different then Indian food, in fact there is more choice. And the spicing routine isn't all that different, just the way they go about assembling the spicing routine. Indian food is a dry spicing routine and Thai food uses a paste. But the spices on the list are very similar. But if Thai food revolved around ingredients with "off flavors" like using a lot of offal or salted fish, I don't think it would have been accepted the same way.

Steve - I don't want to drag this off topic and have to start another thread, but this is really very funny. I see the point that you are making, but boy-oh-boy was the choice of example cuisines off by a mile.

How many Thai dishes don't have the salted fish juice in them I wonder?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes but it's not a big component of the dish in the same way that salt cod or sardines are. And soy sauce itself is sort of an off flavor because of the way it is steeped. Thai or Vietnamese fish sauce, and the amounts they use, is just a falvor enhancer. But I believe if they gave Western diners a whiff of the bottle of Vietnamese fish sauce, nobody would eat it.

[Wilfrid]

I will very briefly repeat a point I made yonks back. I've yet to see a good example of a cuisine migrating from one country to another as a result of the experience of tourists. Give me one. Please.

[hollywood]

Yes but it's not a big component of the dish in the same way that salt cod or sardines are. And soy sauce itself is sort of an off flavor because of the way it is steeped. Thai or Vietnamese fish sauce, and the amounts they use, is just a falvor enhancer. But I believe if they gave Western diners a whiff of the bottle of Vietnamese fish sauce, nobody would eat it.

My wife keeps a bottle of the fish sauce around all the time. We've survived.

[Adam Balic]

The flavours of well aged beef or a nice partridge are "off flavours" and most people don't have a problem with them. If I gave you a slice of raw fermented prawn paste, you wouldn't want to eat it, but then you would never see it in that form, same logic applies to salt cod or offal etc etc. I don't see what the big deal is.

Having spoken to a few people that have been tourists in Turkey (popular destination for Australians), one of the things that they mention is that they wish that the food avalible to them was a bit more varied and interesting (ie. No more kebabs and stuffed breads).

[Tonyfinch]

I will very briefly repeat a point I made yonks back.  I've yet to see a good example of a cuisine migrating from one country to another as a result of the experience of tourists.  Give me one.  Please.

Well I've given you one-Thai. And now we're seeing Vietnamese (in London, I mean).

Steve I'm not even going to dignify your point about Thai and Indian cuisines with an argument. Besides which this is a thread about Greek and Turkish cuisines.

[Wilfrid]

Tony, I'm not convinced. Chinese, Korean and Japanese cuisines arrived in the States and the UK for reasons other than tourism, and I suspect the same is the case with Thai and Vietnamese cuisines. Certainly, in the latter case, there has been substantial immigration from Vietnam to the west over the last twenty odd years. I don't know anything about Thai immigration, but I'd be surprised if it isn't more to do with that than with holidays to Bangkok.

If I'm right, such cuisines catch on when they are discovered in the country to which they've migrated and not in their country of origin.

[Tonyfinch]

Wilfred, you may well be right in the case of Vietnamese, but with Thai I genuinely believe that people have gone there as tourists, loved the food and created a demand for it back in London and in Australia. And its a reasonable reflection of the cuisine you can get in Thailand.

[Adam Balic]

If I'm right, such cuisines catch on when they are discovered in the country to which they've migrated and not in their country of origin.

I think that this is most likely correct in many cases, but I do think that there is a case for people gaining more experience while traveling abroad, of food they have been exposed to in some way "back home". And being more brave about it in the process.

For example people traveling to Turkey would be more likely to try un-known things if they had some sort of awareness in the back of there mind like: " I had that Turkish meat pizza-thing in X, which was nice, I wonder what else they have like that?".

[Wilfrid]

I'm sure what Adam says is right, and I don't have the data to contradict Tony about Thai food. I only raise it because we've spent a lot of time on several threads debating Plotnickian theses about why tourists did or did not import certain cuisines to their own countries, whilst we should be cautious about the whole notion that cuisines move around because of tourism.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If I gave you a slice of raw fermented prawn paste, you wouldn't want to eat it, but then you would never see it in that form, same logic applies to salt cod or offal etc etc. I don't see what the big deal is.

Tony - But salt cod and offal are what the entire dish revolves around. It's usually a big hunk of salt cod stewed somehow. Or kidneys that are broiled after being coated with mustard or something. They only use a spoonful of dried shrimp paste and it is integrated into a spicing routine that might have 15 other ingredients. So you don't taste it by itself.

Wilfird - I have not said that tourism is the only way food culture travels, but it is one of the ways. It only takes one enterprising person to realize that if the tourists like it when they visit, they might like it when they are home. This isn't really such a drastic concept. Just probably one of the ways that it happens.

[Tonyfinch]

Wilfred, I believe that one of the reasons we have chefs and cooks on TV becoming superstars these days and why cookery books sell in their millions in the UK is precisely because people's culinary horizons have been opened up by foriegn travel. True there will always be the brigade who want bacon butties and chips, but people of all classes are more food aware than they've ever been.

The versions of Greek and Turkish cuisines that have been imported to the UK reflect the market from a different time. And,certainly in the case of Greek cuisine, it is now moribund and stuck in that timewarp whereas the market has moved on.

Turkish cuisine has adapted more with new open grill restaurants opening up and a slightly wider range of specialities on offer. But Greek cuisine is dead in London (The Real Greek apart) as anything more than a sop for wine, and it will have to adopt to a new set of demands or it will all but disappear.

And I think that's because of tourism broadening the culinary mind.

Edited February 24, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Adam Balic]

If I gave you a slice of raw fermented prawn paste, you wouldn't want to eat it, but then you would never see it in that form, same logic applies to salt cod or offal etc etc. I don't see what the big deal is.

Tony - But salt cod and offal are what the entire dish revolves around. It's usually a big hunk of salt cod stewed somehow. Or kidneys that are broiled after being coated with mustard or something. They only use a spoonful of dried shrimp paste and it is integrated into a spicing routine that might have 15 other ingredients. So you don't taste it by itself.

Steve - you really are having trouble keeping track of who I am today. .

I garantee that even a tiny amount of fermented prawn paste with dominate a dish in flavour, not to mention the immediate 100 metres.

What is the big deal with salt cod? It has a nice, mildish flavour and it doesn't look weird or anything. As for offal, well it's found in every country, people like it or not and I haven't noticed that Spanish cuisine was over abundant in it.

I think that Wilfrid was correct when he said that very few foods have traveled due to tourism. Maybe that will change now with a more food aware culture in the UK, USA, Australia etc, but very little to date I would think. And that may be your clue to why regional Spanish food isn't better know in the US, UK & etc - not enough of a Spanish ethnic population to reach some type of critical mass of food exposure to the non-Spanish population?

[Wilfrid]

I concede that tourism broadens the mind, and is reflected in what people will and will not accept on a menu, but I think the influence of tourism on the migration of cuisines is at best minimal, and certainly not a model worth debating at length. So far the only example suggested of a cuisine migrating because of tourism is Thai.

[Steve Plotnicki]

. But Greek cuisine is dead in London (The Real Greek apart) as anything more than a sop for wine, and it will have to adopt to a new set of demands or it will all but disappear.

Tony - But Greek cuisine is dead everywhere because there is no real cuisine there. At least not in the same way that other ethnic (no new word yet) offer a cuisine. The few high end Greek restaurants that have opened in NYC are based on the concept that Greeks are excellent fish cooks (a faulty premise if you ask me, they are the same as everyone else.) And they get away with it because in general, the fish cookery available in NYC stinks. So a new place opens up and serves a better quality version of what you might get in a Greek diner in Long Island and charges $30. And I believe that their popularity stems from people liking to eat fish and there not being good fish easily available. In fact the concept of the New York or New England style fish house has almost disappeared from NYC. There is no J. Sheekey or Scott's here. And we don't even have the next level down like Poisonnerie de l'Avenue or the French copycats like Le Suquet and Le Pescadou. We have Le Bernadin and Aqua Grill, and then the bottom falls out excluding the Oyster Bar which is in a category all by itself.

Wilfird - I am not so sure that you should dismiss it. When people decide to immigrate somwhere, they go where they think they can get work. And if they know that the people in their homeland like a modified version of their cuisine, then yes that is an incentive. How much so I obviously do not know.

[Adam Balic]

I concede that tourism broadens the mind, and is reflected in what people will and will not accept on a menu, but I think the influence of tourism on the migration of cuisines is at best minimal, and certainly not a model worth debating at length.  So far the only example suggested of a cuisine migrating because of tourism is Thai.

And I think that the Thai example maybe most relevant to the UK. There is a large Thai community in Australia.

[Adam Balic]

Wilfird - I am not so sure that you should dismiss it. When people decide to immigrate somwhere, they go where they think they can get work. And if they know that the people in their homeland like a modified version of their cuisine, then yes that is an incentive. How much so I obviously do not know.

Don't agree. In Melbourne the model was people that migrated here 1950's-70's really had not idea of what to expect when they got here. The Australian culture at the time was extremely Anglo-Saxon (AS) dominated, so no opening of ethinic restuarants for the locals. People that migrated and ran resturants for the AS ran Fish 'n' Chip places. At the time of my childhood in the 70's most Fish 'n' Chip places were ran by Greeks (now they are ran by Vietnamese).

"Ethnic" restaurants when they did open, were opened for the migrants, no the AS population. AS were exposed to these places in the second degree. But, as I said before, to do this you need a certain critical mass of a particular ethnic population to do this. It doesn't really have to reflect any real value of a particular cuisine at all.

[Tonyfinch]

Tony - But Greek cuisine is dead everywhere because there is no real cuisine there.

Well it's a rustic cuisine for sure but i don't agree there's NO real cuisine. Lonely Planet pointed me to a restaurant behind the football stadium in Gythio which it enthused about as being one of the best in the Peloponnese.

There was the proverbial old grandmamma in a rundown caff surrounded by bubbling pans which contained artichokes braised in wine with oregano, chicken with potatoes and herb stuffed cannelloni, blackeye bean and spinach with thyme, and the most amazing brandade of salt cod I've ever eaten-it was like silk-one of those moments when you really understand what a dish is all about.

OK, that place was a bit of a one off but it showed it CAN be done. Why there aren't places like that all over Greece I don't know, but there must be other excellent cooks like her even if they don't run restaurants.

They could open up over here and maybe do very well.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam - Not the 50's, the 70's after tourism took off.

Tony - Okay I will be more careful with my words. I don't mean there really isn't a cuisine there, I mean that by comparison to other cuisines, and the advances they have made by being modernized and updated over the past three decades, there is little interesting about Greek cuisine because it has been stagnate all that time. How's that?

[Wilfrid]

But there you go, Steve: how many cuisines have migrated since the 1970s?

Belated thanks to Vedat for his last post, which I've just had time to read. I actually enjoyed the cuisine in Istanbul when I was there; not because the cooking was elaborate, but because the quality of the ingredients - vegetables and fish in particular - was amazing. Simple treatments - salads with a little oil, grills - seemed appropriate.

[Adam Balic]

Adam - Not the 50's, the 70's after tourism took off.

Not in Australia it didn't. The ability of somebody in Melbourne Circa ~1980 to get a decent cup of coffee had little to do with a small section of the population going for holidays in Italy. It was because of Italians (an others) opening cafes in Melbourne. I think that you have overstated the impact of tourism on the development of ethnic restaurants eating. This may be changing, but it isn't historical.

Tourists are for tourists.

[Tonyfinch]

Tony - Okay I will be more careful with my words. I don't mean there really isn't a cuisine there, I mean that by comparison to other cuisines, and the advances they have made by being modernized and updated over the past three decades, there is little interesting about Greek cuisine because it has been stagnate all that time. How's that?

But does it have to be that way? There ARE fine cooks there even if there isn't a fine restaurant cuisine. Surely there'd be a market for genuine, regional Greek food- even if the restaurant was a cheapish and cheerful one-if the ambience and setting were pitched right and it was marketed skilfully.

As I keep saying-The Real Greek has been hailed as a groundbreaking restaurant and is extremely successful. Where are all the Greeks with business acumen looking at its success closely and planning a Greek equivalent of La Cuisine de ma Grandmere? Or some such?

I have a book in front of me called The Best Traditional Recipes of Greece. It contains loads of distinct and really tasty sounding recipes not one of which has ever found its way on to the menu of any Greek restaurant in London as far as I can see.

I open up the book at random-Lamb with Plums. The lamb pieces are marinated in onion and lemon juice then sauteed in butter then cooked with almonds and plums. Lemon, sugar and flour to thicken are added towards the end.

OK-maybe not haute cuisine. But tasty, interesting, warming, filling etc. What would be wrong with that on a Greek menu?

The cuisine is there. It seems that people are just not interested in selling it.

Edited February 24, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[peterpumkino]

Being the culprit who started this thread (remember, way back in Spain I asked, "Am I the only person in the World who thinks that Greek cuisine is the only one that is better outside of the mother country than in") I do have a couple of comments.

I really love having a plateful of prawns or some fish on a Greek island's moonlight bay, drinking Retsina with a lovely female companion. Honestly, for me there is nothing better. But how much of this is actually the food? Certainly the Retsina helps as does the company to say nothing of one of the best settings in the World ...........but the food? Lets face it even a half-baked chef faced with fresher-than-fresh fish has a real problem ruining it (that maybe explains, Steve, why you say the Greek food in NYC is not so good - simply said, the fish isn't fresh) but it's NOT the cuisine per se.

Furthermore the quality of meat in Greece (IMHO) is horrendous so ANY Greek food sampled outside of Greece must be superior as the main ingredient has to be better as it cannot get worse!

So my point, Tony, is whilst Greek food might not be great in the UK (actually, because of the quality of meat in the States, it's good in the U.S.) at least it's better than Greece itself when you take away the atmosphere, the Greek Island, the company, the bazouki player in the background, the Retsina, the old men playing Backgammon, the Ouzo, the Mama taking you into the kitchen and showing you the food etc etc. (sounds a bit like "What have the Romans done for us apart from........."). I've actually been in a place described above and the Moussakka was micro-waved! But with the atmosphere, the drink and the pretty woman who gives a f*** about the food!!!!

As one who has not only lived in both Turkey and Greece and last year spent my hols touring Greece and gulleting in Turkey I think the food is far, far better in Turkey. Much more variety and the meat is much better. I admit it though, the coffee is identical - only the names are changed.

PS I do want to be clear in that I am referring to 'normal' restaurants around Greece and not food cooked at home.

Edited February 25, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[peterpumkino]

Even in local Chinese restaurants in London, the reason they don't translate the specials is because so few non-Chinese order them. So it isn't worth their while.

Steve, have you actually eaten in China??

[Steve Plotnicki]

Peter - The fish is fresh at the Greek restaurants in NYC, they just don't do very much to them but broil them and throw some olive oil and spices on them. Their is no "cuisine" in the sense of the word where they have taken the time and trouble to prepare a proper sauce, or even created a garnish from vegetables and spices that would bring the dish to a different level of cuisine. So the food isn't bad, just boring. As for China, never been.