Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

elyse · February 17, 2003

Why would you eat someplace you know you won't like? Sometimes you get stuck going places yu don't want to. Sometimes it's a crowd, sometimes it's to make the other person happy.

ahr · February 17, 2003

Why would you eat someplace you know you won't like?

There's the germ of a new Culinary Masochism thread.

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Why would you eat someplace you know you won't like? Sometimes you get stuck going places yu don't want to. Sometimes it's a crowd, sometimes it's to make the other person happy.

True.

Steve Plotnicki · February 17, 2003

Why oh why do the people who do not ask for off menu items in restaurants think that they know how anyone reacts to the request? How would they know? It's just crazy. Not only do they not know, but not feeling that way about it themselves, why do they feel secure enough in their opinions to pass judgement on the motivations of the people who do ask for it? Somebody please tell me in which way other then pure conjecture, how Ron, Martin, Tommy, Suzanne or Maggie know what motivates people to ask for it, and how they know how the restaurants react to it when actually asked? Because the only evidence I see from the people who do ask, is that what they are interested in is having the best possible meal, and most restaurants are happy to accomodate them. But if somebody has evidence to the contrary, that is not pure conjecture, please put it forth.

tommy · February 17, 2003

i've done it. and do it. appropriately. and when appropriate. and as i've stated, i'm playing devil's advocate.

Edited February 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Why oh why do the people who do not ask for off menu items in restaurants think that they know how anyone reacts to the request? How would they know? It's just crazy. Not only do they not know, but not feeling that way about it themselves, why do they feel secure enough in their opinions to pass judgement on the motivations of the people who do ask for it? Somebody please tell me in which way other then pure conjecture, how Ron, Martin, Tommy, Suzanne or Maggie know what motivates people to ask for it, and how they know how the restaurants react to it when actually asked?

Because Steve, I worked in the kitchen of a restaurant and I saw the reaction of the chef to people doing this. Thats how I know how they react. That is why it is not pure conjecture.

I also waited tables for years and had these requests made to me, so thats how I know how I reacted when I had to pass this along to the sous. I was there. That is why it is not pure conjecture.

As fas as passing judgment, thats all we do on this forum. We pass judgment on food, wine, restaurants, chefs, publications, locations, cities, airlines, hotels, smells, tastes, colors, each other, and anything else that is related to food. Its what a forum is, a chance to share opinions and debate the merits of those opinions. It doesn't have to be personal, or should it be. Sometimes two people just dont think the same way about the same thing.

Varmint · February 17, 2003

Steve, you may have addressed this already, but if you were to look at the menu, find nothing that inspired you and then asked if the chef could prepare something different, how would you respond if the kitchen couldn't accomodate your request?

In many ways, this thread follows a basic tenet with which I follow quite frequently: Often, one doesn't get what he truly wants unless he asks for it.

Asking is one thing, but demanding is another. I don't see Steve demanding anything, do I?

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

(S)ome guy walks into my restaurant for the first time and says, "I really expect a lot more than the average joe, so I dont want whats on your menu, I want you to cook me something really good." I would be insulted on some level.

Yep, sounds pretty insulting to me too, Ron. Who on earth suggested such a thing? - and I have said half a dozen times that seeking to eat off the menu on one's first visit to a restaurant seems to me misguided.

I still don't know why we can't discuss either

1. what the WSJ did, or

2. what a polite, intelligent diner, not looking to boost their own prestige or test the restaurant might do

instead of just spinning our wheels in this hypothetical situation about the possible actions of an insulting egomaniac.

Martin, thank you, and I accept you weren't being sarcastic. Of your four options, still setting aside dietary/medical motivation, and also - please - setting aside ego-boosting and testing, I don't think "whimsy" is the only option left. I thought, in fact, Steve described another motivation fairly well with his analogy of buying a custom-made suit. Not quite, because I can imagine buying clothes custom-made without having first bought off-the-rack from the same purveyor, and I'd be much less likely to do that with a restaurant. But I think it makes perfect sense, if you're familiar with what a kitchen can do, to seek a meal tailored to your specific requirements. I have frequently done this ahead of time, for special occasions, by calling and consulting with the chef or management. Is that so odd?

The WSJ journalists seemed to be doing something quite different and essentially silly, and I take your point, Martin, therefore, that it's not a mode of behavior to be imitated.

Edited February 17, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

Steve Plotnicki · February 17, 2003

As fas as passing judgment, thats all we do on this forum. We pass judgment on food, wine, restaurants, chefs, publications, locations, cities, airlines, hotels, smells, tastes, colors, each other, and anything else that is related to food. Its what a forum is, a chance to share opinions and debate the merits of those opinions. It doesn't have to be personal.

Except a large part of this thread is devoted to the motivation of people who do it. Now that is personal. So I restate, how do people who do not do it know the motivation of people who do?

Now I don't know where you worked, or who the chef was there, or what the routine was in that kitchen. But I can tell you that since the x-mas holidays, I asked for some variation of off menu, or special menu, and was accomodated at the following places;

Citronelle

Morimoto

Blue Hill

Union Pacific

Craft

It's really not a big deal. And I promise you, you will eat better for the asking. That is the only thing that is important. To eat better. Politics, money, class, elitism, they are all busllshit topics that people interpose that prevent us from discussing the real issue. How good was the food and when you asked for off menu items, or special menus, did the food improve somehow?

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Who on earth suggested such a thing?

I thought the WSJ did.

Maybe I misunderstood the WSJ article. Did they first go to all of these restaurants and eat off of the menu and then return and ask to order off the menu?

tommy · February 17, 2003

Who on earth suggested such a thing?
I thought the WSJ did.
Maybe I misunderstood the WSJ article. Did they first go to all of these restaurants and eat off of the menu and then return and ask to order off the menu?

right. it might be important to recognize that these "personal" attacks are actually directed towards the article one way or another.

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

Presumably not, but I don't know that they acted like jerks either. One has a great sense of freedom, of course, discussing the article without reading it. :wink:

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Except a large part of this thread is devoted to the motivation of people who do it. Now that is personal. So I restate, how do people who do not do it know the motivation of people who do?

None of my posts were attempts to speculate as to the motivations of those who ask. So, I was not being personal. However, you included my name in the list of people whom you thought were.

Again, it is not the asking that bothered me or the chef I worked for when I was in the business. It was the reaction when people were told "no". As if the restaurant had done something wrong, as if the regular menu food was substandard. This was insulting and gave the appearance that these people felt they were entitled to something "better" than others who ate at the restaurant. This is what I don't agree with.

As to "why" they reacted this way, I could not begin to guess. Probably for a wide variety of reasons.

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Presumably not, but I don't know that they acted like jerks either. One has a great sense of freedom, of course, discussing the article without reading it.

Luckily, my office takes the WSJ. :wink:

I don't know that they acted like jerks either, or that they would have disclosed it if they had.

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

it might be important to recognize that these "personal" attacks are actually directed towards the article one way or another.

"I don't suppose you realize -- or care -- how insulting you are being to restaurants in general: you seem to be saying that one must push them to get a high(er) level of service -- they won't do it otherwise. And you're talking about the sort of place YOU frequent; think what that says about "lesser" venues...So you're saying that you want to be considered special? And that by indicating that nothing on the menu is good enough for you, you are showing how special you are?"*

Listen up, WSJ! :laugh:

*Just to clarify, that's Suzanne F right there.

Edited February 17, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

Holly Moore · February 17, 2003

It's really not a big deal. And I promise you, you will eat better for the asking. That is the only thing that is important. To eat better. Politics, money, class, elitism, they are all busllshit topics that people interpose that prevent us from discussing the real issue. How good was the food and when you asked for off menu items, or special menus, did the food improve somehow?

I'm assuming then that you had ordered off the menu at these places before and therefore know how that restaurant's chef prepares the various dishes on the menu. Otherwise you may not have eaten better, just different.

My problem is the assumption that, especially in the finest restaurants, what the chef has offered on the menu is not as good as it gets for that chef and that restaurant. If one is merely ordering off-menu because one assumes better is possible, than that is a slap at the integrity of the chef and the menu, insinuating that the restaurant is not already offering it's best.

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

It was the reaction when people were told "no". As if the restaurant had done something wrong, as if the regular menu food was substandard. This was insulting and gave the appearance that these people felt they were entitled to something "better" than others who ate at the restaurant. This is what I don't agree with.

Me too. Who's doing it? The WSJ? Jerks.

bugsy gugoff · February 17, 2003

You guys have strong opinions about a subject you seem to know nothing about. Cripes. Any serious chef appreciates an invitation by a customer to design a menu for him. If they are too busy, the captain comes back and says, "Chef would love to do it, but another night when the kitchen is not as busy." How can you think a chef will be insulted? Maybe a hash house cook would be, but not a bonafide chef.

I speak pretty good Japanese. I learned that the sushi chefs love it when you sit at the counter and converse with them in Japanese. I tell them to serve me what they think is best right now. The wait staff hate it when you order in Japanese. Because they have to wait on you in a proscribed way when you speak Japanese, but the gaijins require much less formality.

The other night I told the owner of a restaurant that I'd love a whole dover sole, grilled with a particular sauce. It wasn't on the menu and never has been. She said, "call me the day you are coming, next time, and I'll see that we have it for you." I only ate there once before.

And that namby pamby crap about not wanting to make extra work for the kitchen staff by messing up their menu plans. Any place reacts that way is a phoney baloney.

There hasn't been one Michelin starred place I ate at didn't smile when I handed the menu back to the captain and said (in my lousy French) "Si Vous Plait--le Chef choisy pour moi?.

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

My problem is the assumption that, especially in the finest restaurants, what the chef has offered on the menu is not as good as it gets for that chef and that restaurant. If one is merely ordering off-menu because one assumes better is possible, than that is a slap at the integrity of the chef and the menu, insinuating that the restaurant is not already offering it's best.

What he said. :cool:

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

You guys have strong opinions about a subject you seem to know nothing about.

Welcome to eGullet. :wacko:

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

You guys have strong opinions about a subject you seem to know nothing about. Cripes. Any serious chef appreciates an invitation by a customer to design a menu for him. If they are too busy, the captain comes back and says, "Chef would love to do it, but another night when the kitchen is not as busy."

And, as I said, there is nothing to stop someone enquiring in advance. You can use that plastic thing one normally orders the New York times with.

tommy · February 17, 2003

You guys have strong opinions about a subject you seem to know nothing about. Cripes. Any serious chef appreciates an invitation by a customer to design a menu for him. If they are too busy, the captain comes back and says, "Chef would love to do it, but another night when the kitchen is not as busy."

not all the time, as is evident by the treatment a few posters got at babbo. did you read that thread? it's just not cut-and-dry.

Edited February 18, 2003 by tommy (log)

Gavin Jones · February 17, 2003

There hasn't been one Michelin starred place I ate at didn't smile when I handed the menu back to the captain and said (in my lousy French) "Si Vous Plait--le Chef choisy pour moi?.

What actually happens at this point. Dishes which bear no relation to the various menus?

There are a plurality of readings of your interesting request.

Wilfrid · February 17, 2003

If we're going to go over all that old ground again, someone needs to bring everyone up-to-date. I thought the server didn't understand the request, not that we know the request to be have been turned down by Batali.

On the other hand, we could discuss the WSJ piece. Anyway, I give up.

Ron Johnson · February 17, 2003

Anyway, I give up.

Me too.

Tomorrow? Same place?

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