A new approach to sorbet

[paulraphael]

I've been working on sorbets since last summer, with what seemed like a humble goal: make them edible. 

 

The truth is, I'd never had good sorbet, even when made by the world's best pastry chefs. It's always been at least a little icy. It's always had a short texture. There's never been any creaminess. And it's always been mind-blowingly, pancreas-killingly, tooth-achingly sweet. I don't know how people eat it. These flaws are there for structural reasons. It's really hard to make a true sorbet with decent body and adequate freezing point depression without sweetness levels that could kill a bee. And it's hard to do creaminess without ... cream.

 

I still have work to do on watery fruits (watermelon) and very acidic ones (lemon). But for berries and pulpy fruits, this problem is solved. It requires a good number of unconventional ingredients, but if you like to wear your lab coat in the kitchen, and you have access to really good fruit, I think it's worth it.

 

The basic formula: 75% fruit, 25% science.

 

Strawberry recipe, with some explanation, here. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by paulraphael (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Back in the 1980's, before Lyme disease was popular, my sons and I went raspberry picking at a local farm.  The quantity was overwhelming.  My teeth have never been amenable to raspberry seeds, and having the technology, I pureed and strained the raspberries, and relegated them to the refrigerator.

 

Unbeknownst to me my younger son had the idea to spin the puree in the Simac -- our resident ice cream maker at the time.  As far as I know, no added sugar.  I have not had better sorbet.

 

[Tri2Cook]

That's interesting. I've honestly never thought about the short texture and lack of creaminess in most sorbets as a flaw. I just assumed that's what a sorbet is, a different critter than ice cream or sherbet. But I like that you decided that's not what it has to be and went after a solution. While my geekery cabinet is pretty solid, I'd still have to add a few things to be able to try your recipe. If the ingredients I'm missing are easy to find and not too expensive, I just might give it a go. Every now and then, I miss lab coat cooking. 

[teonzo]

Thanks for sharing!

A minor correction: you wrote "This is why there’s no table sugar; it’s too sweet (although there’s plenty of it naturally present in all those strawberries).", there's almost no sucrose in strawberries (as written in a table down in your post).

 

 

 

Teo

 

[teonzo]

7 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Unbeknownst to me my younger son had the idea to spin the puree in the Simac -- our resident ice cream maker at the time.  As far as I know, no added sugar.  I have not had better sorbet.

 

That's because he used parsley as secret ingredient.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, Tri2Cook said:

That's interesting. I've honestly never thought about the short texture and lack of creaminess in most sorbets as a flaw. I just assumed that's what a sorbet is, a different critter than ice cream or sherbet. But I like that you decided that's not what it has to be and went after a solution. While my geekery cabinet is pretty solid, I'd still have to add a few things to be able to try your recipe. If the ingredients I'm missing are easy to find and not too expensive, I just might give it a go. Every now and then, I miss lab coat cooking. 

 

I'm sure there's a range of preference regarding texture. You can adjust for more or less creaminess just by varying the amount of inulin. You shouldn't have to compensate by changing anything else.

 

The more important fix, in my opinion, is the sweetness. I just can't taste any subtleties, or enjoy anything, when it's as sweet as a 20% or 25% sugar solution. It just grosses me out.

 

I've tried Jo's approach of just spinning fruit puree. It's just too hard and icy for me. But at home we often take that minimalist approach even farther: we eat frozen berries, whole. It's refreshing and delicious. Just let them warm up to the point where they're soft enough to bite, and they literally melt in your mouth. It's not sorbet ... delicious, but different.

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, teonzo said:

Thanks for sharing!

A minor correction: you wrote "This is why there’s no table sugar; it’s too sweet (although there’s plenty of it naturally present in all those strawberries).", there's almost no sucrose in strawberries (as written in a table down in your post).

 

That was a typo ... should be 1.2% sucrose. But you're still right, that's very little, even with 75% berries.

[Smithy]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

I'm sure there's a range of preference regarding texture. You can adjust for more or less creaminess just by varying the amount of inulin. You shouldn't have to compensate by changing anything else.

 

The more important fix, in my opinion, is the sweetness. I just can't taste any subtleties, or enjoy anything, when it's as sweet as a 20% or 25% sugar solution. It just grosses me out.

 

I've tried Jo's approach of just spinning fruit puree. It's just too hard and icy for me. But at home we often take that minimalist approach even farther: we eat frozen berries, whole. It's refreshing and delicious. Just let them warm up to the point where they're soft enough to bite, and they literally melt in your mouth. It's not sorbet ... delicious, but different.

 

Along those lines, I have once or twice pureed watermelon pulp and then frozen it in my ice cream maker. It probably wouldn't pass muster for you, but it was an easy and (to us) delicious version of a sorbet.

[paulraphael]

43 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

Along those lines, I have once or twice pureed watermelon pulp and then frozen it in my ice cream maker. It probably wouldn't pass muster for you, but it was an easy and (to us) delicious version of a sorbet.

 

You can also cut watermelon into long pieces, freeze them, squeeze some lime over them, and enjoy natures perfect popsicles.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

7 hours ago, teonzo said:

 

That's because he used parsley as secret ingredient.

 

 

 

Teo

 

 

Parsley was the other son...this one is an even more picky eater.

 

[teonzo]

When dealing with wild berries it's important to remember that the sugars / solids content can vary quite a lot depending on the season. During some hot and dry summers I had to add water to wild mulberries and blackberries to be able to get a granita. Didn't try to make a sorbet, but I suspect I could go without adding sugars.

It depends on the machine people are using too: a Pacojet will render smooth even a stone (I'm exaggerating, please don't put stones in a Pacojet).

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Tri2Cook]

7 hours ago, paulraphael said:

I'm sure there's a range of preference regarding texture. You can adjust for more or less creaminess just by varying the amount of inulin. You shouldn't have to compensate by changing anything else.

I wouldn't say it's a preference, it's just what I thought a sorbet texture was supposed to be because it's what they pretty much always are. That doesn't mean it can't be better. Intensely fruity, not overly sweet with a creamy smooth texture sounds good to me. Looks like at least some of the ingredients I don't already have are available through Modernist Pantry, I haven't had time to do a thorough check yet.

[paulraphael]

4 hours ago, teonzo said:

When dealing with wild berries it's important to remember that the sugars / solids content can vary quite a lot depending on the season. During some hot and dry summers I had to add water to wild mulberries and blackberries to be able to get a granita. Didn't try to make a sorbet, but I suspect I could go without adding sugars.

 

Yeah, that's why for sorbets I've been using a refractometer. If the Brix of a berry is, say 50% higher than average, then you calculate the formula by multiplying the solids, the POD (sweetness), and the freezing point depression by 1.5. This would definitely change the balance of added sugars. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by paulraphael (log)

[Tri2Cook]

So the trehalose is proving to be the only tough one. I can get everything else I don't already have in smallish quantities. I used to go for the bigger containers with specialty ingredients but not so much anymore. Looking at the large amount of lots of things I'll probably never use up I have sitting around has tempered that tendency. But we'll see if I can talk myself into it.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, Tri2Cook said:

So the trehalose is proving to be the only tough one. I can get everything else I don't already have in smallish quantities. I used to go for the bigger containers with specialty ingredients but not so much anymore. Looking at the large amount of lots of things I'll probably never use up I have sitting around has tempered that tendency. But we'll see if I can talk myself into it.

 

My trehalose came from Cascade Analytical Reagents and Biochemicals.  But I am afraid they may be out of business.

 

[paulraphael]

There are a few sellers on Amazon. I bought this version.

 

Also I asked Modernist Pantry if they'd consider carrying the handful of these ingredients that they don't already. They're looking into it. 

[Tri2Cook]

15 hours ago, paulraphael said:

There are a few sellers on Amazon. I bought this version.

The best deal I've found so far for a Canadian source is 1/4 that amount for about 2x the price. Any better deals I found from the US either don't ship to Canada or charge enough to more than wipe out any savings with the shipping cost. 

[paulraphael]

On 7/24/2019 at 4:54 PM, Tri2Cook said:

The best deal I've found so far for a Canadian source is 1/4 that amount for about 2x the price. Any better deals I found from the US either don't ship to Canada or charge enough to more than wipe out any savings with the shipping cost. 

 

That's annoying. I'm running into this kind of thing all the time when consulting people in other countries. Some ingredients that really don't seem all that exotic can be nearly impossible to find, unless you're shopping for industrial quantities. I'll come up with a version that doesn't use trehalose. It's an ingredient I don't bother with in ice cream because it's functionally very close to lactose, which is vital, and which makes up half of all the milk solids. But you can't really get away with putting milk solids in sorbet ...

Edited July 25, 2019 by paulraphael (log)

[Tri2Cook]

49 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

I'll come up with a version that doesn't use trehalose.

Or I'll decide I'm curious enough to just go ahead and get it anyway. 

[paulraphael]

Try this, as a trehalose-free version. It's pretty close. Total solids are a bit lower.

 

(for 500g)

32g  Water        
375g Strawberry        
17g Inulin        
22g Dextrose        
38g Atomized Glucose DE40        
15g Erythritol        
1g CMC

0.5g guar

0.5g lambda carrageenan       
0.5g Salt        

[sverreef]

On 7/26/2019 at 1:31 AM, paulraphael said:

Try this, as a trehalose-free version. It's pretty close. Total solids are a bit lower.

 

I've not been able to source trehalose here in Norway, so I've just tried a version of your trehalose-free version in the Ninja Creami. To work around the somewhat dull colour of the Boiron strawberry puree I had available, I made two changes to the recipe:

 

Puree replaced 1:1 with clarified strawberry juice with brix 9.2% (made in the Spinzall) and water replaced 1:1 with strawberry powder to reintroduce some (?) of the solids I lost because of the clarification. Finally, acidity was adjusted with a couple of grams of malic acid.

 

I have not calculated PAC/POD and freezing point for this version, but the mouth feel and scoopabiliy was absolutely spot on after one spin in the Creami on the light ice cream setting, and the flavour was pretty close to perfect too, so thanks a lot for the recipe 😀 

 

 

Next time, I'll probably try to reduce the sweetness a fraction without altering the total amount of

solids.

 

From the left-over strawberry juice, I also made a strawberry "creme anglaise". The sauce was good, and presented the strawberry flavour in a contrasting texture and temperature to the sorbet, but as a complete dish, the sauce and sorbet were just too similar in flavour profile...

[sverreef]

I've made a few iterations of this since last time, including a control batch identical to the trehalose free version posted above.

 

The control version was a bit too dense/sticky for my liking, and I couldn't make the quenelles release cleanly from the spoon.

 

I'm guessing this may be caused by using the creami vs churning. Less aeration perhaps? It could perhaps also be the inulin I'm using: Sosa inulin hot.

 

Mixing the two batches - approximately 3/4 control and 1/4 my original adaptation solved the scooping issue i experienced with the control batch:

 

 

My favourite compromise of flavour release, sweetness and scoopability has been this however:

 

112.5g Boiron Strawberry puree

498g Clarified strawberry juice

25.5g Inulin (Sosa inulin hot)

33g Dextrose

57g Glucose powder DE42

22.5g Erythritol

1.5g CMC

0.75g Guar gum

0.75g Lambda carrageenan

0.75g Salt

2.5g Malic acid

 

 

@paulraphael

 

Have you considered Flaxfiber as an alternative/addition to this approach to sorbet?

 

Seems to have very interesting properties and applications, not only for sorbets:

 

 

 

 

[paulraphael]

21 hours ago, sverreef said:

I've made a few iterations of this since last time, including a control batch identical to the trehalose free version posted above.

 

The control version was a bit too dense/sticky for my liking, and I couldn't make the quenelles release cleanly from the spoon.

 

I'm guessing this may be caused by using the creami vs churning. Less aeration perhaps? It could perhaps also be the inulin I'm using: Sosa inulin hot.

 

Mixing the two batches - approximately 3/4 control and 1/4 my original adaptation solved the scooping issue i experienced with the control batch:

 

 

My favourite compromise of flavour release, sweetness and scoopability has been this however:

 

112.5g Boiron Strawberry puree

498g Clarified strawberry juice

25.5g Inulin (Sosa inulin hot)

33g Dextrose

57g Glucose powder DE42

22.5g Erythritol

1.5g CMC

0.75g Guar gum

0.75g Lambda carrageenan

0.75g Salt

2.5g Malic acid

 

 

@paulraphael

 

Have you considered Flaxfiber as an alternative/addition to this approach to sorbet?

 

Seems to have very interesting properties and applications, not only for sorbets:

 

 

 

 

Cool, thanks for the updates. 

I haven't heard of flax fiber (besides as a laxative!). Will check out the video.