Dumplings: Tips, Techniques, Recipes

[jo-mel]

I'll go with "One picture is worth a thousand words" myself, ----- or a Chinese Grandmother.

The proof, tho, no matter how perfect the pleated dumpling, is in the eatin'. No words, please. We want samples!!

[Dejah]

Well, if project won't deviate from his "geometric precision", then JO-MEL's idea:

"The proof, tho, no matter how perfect the pleated dumpling, is in the eatin'. No words, please. We want samples!! "

is good enough for me!

Accept the challenge, PROJECT! please....

[project]

Dejah:

The intended role of the geometry was not geometrically perfect dumpling pleats but merely a hopefully clear description of how to make pleats in dumplings. Alas, such a description could be clear only for people that really like geometry!

Dumplings are items of enormous variety, and their shapes are not precise geometrically but quite amorphous.

For my description, I learned from the help in this thread, from the photographs pointed to from this thread, another look at various dumplings I have bought, and some of what must be the situation from the basic geometry where an arc of about 220 degrees is matched and sealed with an arc of the remaining 140 degrees. The role of the pleats is to use up the extra 80 degrees.

jo-mel:

Yes, I would like to upload not just pictures but "samples"! Better check with Steve and Jason about software that permits uploading and downloading food samples -- just think of the incredible possibilities!

Dejah:

"Accept the challenge, PROJECT! please...."

Gee, geometry is a powerful subject and one of my favorites (totally saved my tail feathers at times) but does have some limits to its powers! Again, for success with this challenge, will need cooperation from Steve and Jason -- "just a small matter of software"!

Now, while I work on dumplings, here is an exercise for geometry lovers, and a solution will be at least as enjoyable as some steamed or boiled dumplings!

Given a triangle ABC, construct a point D on side AB and a point E on side BC so that the lengths AD = DE = EC.

When you do this, don't check with my geometry teacher: She never understood the solution! She said "You can't do that!", but she was wrong.

There is a quote that the violinist J. Heifetz once described music critics as "The words without the music." Well, until Steve and Jason get their software upgraded, eGullet is the words (with some pictures) without the samples!

Yes, we want the samples, but, borrowing from that movie about T. E. Lawrence in the desert, before the samples must come the words -- and maybe even some geometry!

Thanks again for the help.

[jo-mel]

Given a triangle ABC, construct a point D on side AB and a point E on side BC so that the lengths AD = DE = EC.

At the D juncture of sector AB - now known as QP, an LO can be drawn to the BC position giving you QP+LO ------or is it LO-QP? Or is it --------- ARGHHH! ----fageddaboudit!!

It's easier to bone and stuff a duck!

Please Project ---- DON'T ask how to bone and stuff a duck!!!!! LOL!

[Gary Soup]

Well, this is the information age, after all. Browsing in Eastwind Books and Arts (SF) today I spotted an instructional Video CD which purports to teach dumpling making skills step by step. I didn't buy it, but traced its origin to Foreign Language Press in Beijing, via China Books and Periodicals in SF. It has both Mandarin and English sound tracks, and should be playable in most DVD players of recent vintage (some of the early models didn't support VCD format).

Chinese Dumplings

[bleudauvergne]

Questions that come to mind:

Q. So, what would be a good wrapper recipe? For

wrappers, say, 3 inches in diameter, how many would

one recipe make?

Project - I find that home made wrappers are easier than store bought wappers, which have been coated with this wierd stuff to keep them from sticking together in the pack! They are so so easy to make - if you have a powerful food processor with a dough paddle.

Practically impossible to mess up with a machine, though. Really.

You start with 5 parts flour type 45 to 1 part water. Start with about 2.5 cups flour in your machine. Add 1/2 cup water and whir it until its completely incorporated. Open up and mush the meal with your fingers. Does it stick together? if yes, pack it into a ball and put it back in to whir as a whole. If not, add 2TB water and incorporate. Open. Does it stick? and so on. Once it's in a ball you beat it as one big lump in the machine with the paddle. It'll look like it's going to destroy the machine but it will not. let it run for 5 minutes. You'll have to watch the machine because it might start moving. I have made jiaozi about 30 times in my 700W moulinex over the past three years. I will do it and take pics for you.

Q. Is working the dough to 'develop the gluten'

important for wrappers for steamed dumplings?

Yes, it must be done. It must be worked like hell until it's limp with fatigue. But that's easy with the machine! Takes about 5 minutes. Then you have to let it rest for 30 mins. in a bowl covered with a damp cloth.

Q. For the pork, would grocery store ground pork be

good or acceptable? Or is it important to buy a

piece of fresh pork, say, front shoulder, and chop

own, say, with a cleaver or chef's knife? If chop

fresh pork, how finely chopped should the result be?

What would be an appropriate fraction of fat?

Store gound pork is fine. But it must be fatty. In fact, add fat if possible. The lower the fat content, the more your dumpling is going to be dry and hard. You want a hot juicy dumpling just bursting at the seams and ready to explode with flavor in your mouth. Not a piece of cud - Fat is good! If I don't have lard on hand, I use any fat on hand except milk based ones. Duck and goose fat works. Last time I made them I had the meat ground at the butcher and it was too lean so I told him to add 1/3 of the weight in salt pork. This done, I simply reduced my salt and it was simply mouth wateringly delicious, just exactly like the ones I used to eat in Beijing.

Q. For the cabbage, is standard US 'green cabbage'

okay, or is it important to use some variety of

Chinese cabbage, say, 'Napa' cabbage?

Q. For the cabbage, how is the cabbage to be handled?

That is, should the cabbage just be rinsed, drained,

raw, and chopped or should there be some other

processing first?

Both work. But in my method both are parboiled, and then drained and squeezed in a clean dish cloth. This is a must to avoid - 1) GAS in the people who eat them and 2) unwanted undercooked chou with an overcooked meat.

I slice it up thin with a cleaver, parboil the lot for a minute (till it turns bright in color) (usually the weigh equivalent of your pork for either type cabbage)

Q. How finely chopped should the cabbage be?

The regular cabbage has to be slivered more thin than the napa cabbage, it's more dense. You'll get the hang of it.

Q. Is a combination of mostly just pork, cabbage, and

scallion promising?

But of course! But add a few other things.

Q. How is the common 'crescent' dumpling shape formed?

The common crescent dumpling shape is formed by - OK Start at 8oclock. Gather little 30 minute increments in a counter-clockwise motion from 8 oclock to midnight while sticking them down past 8 in a clockwise direction till you get toll strikes midnight.

aw heck I'll just take a pic.

Q. Is there a clever way to measure and shape the right

amount of filling for one dumpling?

Use a spoon! Don't be silly and use chopsticks like that demonstration at epicurious. The other fabulous wonderful thing about home mixed dough is that they stretccchh out if you've got too much and close without complications. Try that with a store bought dumpling skin.

Q. Is there a clever way to moisten the dough when

sealing the closure?

You don't need to do it if you make your own dough.

Q. What would be good ingredients and proportions for

the filling?

I hope that pic works, it's the first time I've tried to put one up. It's a pic with the ingredients.

t = teaspoon

T = Tablespoon

spice = msg - I did that to avoid freaking out anyone who might be browzing through one of my books. Don't use it if you don't like it. It is definitely not necessary.

Q. If the dumplings are to be frozen for heating later,

should they be frozen with raw ingredients or should

the dumplings be cooked before freezing?

Frozen with raw. Cooking them first will just make an enormous slimy sticky mess that will not thaw out properly and be goopy when you cook it. Freezing tips: line up your dumplings on tray lined with parchment or waxed paper, not touching each other. You can get tons on one tray. Make a tray to fit with cardboard if you don't have a tray that fits in your freezer. Freeze like that, and once they're frozen solid, you can put them together in bags without them sticking together. Voila.

Project, I will make dumplings and share with you the pics. I have a dinner party on thursday and I'm on a schedule. so I won't be able to make them for you until Friday.

I hope this works out for you! I'm sure it will.

-lucy

Edited February 10, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[project]

Lucy:

Many thanks!

Your post is part of what makes eG terrific!

I'm busy with non-cooking things. For dumplings, I bought another big supply of frozen ones from Sam's Club. But I do intend to get back to dumpling making! Your post will help!

I believe I finally understand how to make the pleats, although my description with a lot of plane geometry will sound like neither I nor anyone could understand from that description! Ah, for me, such geometry is the easy way!

At various times, I have bought various machines. So, I have several mixers, a blender, a big slicer, and more. But since that flurry of buying machines, I got more impressed with just chef's knife, cutting board, hands, and some simpler tools. So, so far I have avoided buying a food processor, spice grinder, or KitchenAid mixer or equivalent.

So, I may be making the wrappers by working the dough by hand.

Thanks for the information. I was wondering about cooking the cabbage, freezing raw or cooked, etc.

I finally did find my family's old meat grinder. There is a picture of one like mine in some of the pictures of Fat Guy's wife on her tour of outer Mongolia! So, the meat grinder is cast aluminum with a screw to permit clamping the thing to a table. There is a long handle that forms a big crank. There are several blades. So, chunks are put into the hopper, the crank is turned, a coarse screw feeds the chunks to the blades, and ground results get forced out holes. So, in principle I could do my own ground pork!

My little question generated some terrific responses from people with some serious expertise! Ed Schoenfeld's recipe promises some serious flavors. eG's terrific!

Thanks for your post! Look forward to your pictures, etc.!

[bleudauvergne]

So, I may be making the wrappers by working the dough by hand.

I have done this too. Tips:

1. Choose a low work surface to be able to get your weight involved.

2. Even if it seems wicked hard, try to use as little water as you can get away with because once it's ready, it'll suddenly "relax".

3. You'll have to plan to knead vigorously for about 30 minutes. Last time I did it (but I'm really out of shape), my arm and hand were shaking for a full day afterward. So prepare for some serious muscle fatigue or get friends involved to knead on shifts.

4. When it's ready it will suddenly become a whole lot easier to work. You'll be able to tell. It will be as if it is melting a little bit although temp has absolutely nothing to do with the process. It's the gluten which is finally breaking down and stretching out. You'll see it when it happens. It's almost impossible to overwork the dough when doing it by hand, so keep going until you observe this phenomenon.

5. Divide the dough into parts about the size of baseballs when you're ready to make the skins and roll that into a snake. use your cleaver to slice the snake into managable bits to roll each one into a circle.

6. When rolling, Although not absolutely necessary, it's nice to try to keep the skin thicker in the center, it makes for a nicer bite to the dumpling. Do a few while experimenting on varying the thickness of the skin and you'll see what I mean.

7. When boiling, take them out the minute they rise to the top, since you're working with fresh ingredients. The age old technique of adding a bowl of cold water to the water to cool it down again and letting it come to the boil again before removing the dumplings applies to frozen dumplings only.

The meat grinder sounds neat. Chopping your meat on a board is also a possibility. I've seen it done. Chop chop chop, spread flat with cleaver, chop chop chop.

Photos this weekend.

-Lucy

[Dejah]

>7. When boiling, take them out the minute they rise to the top, since you're working with fresh ingredients. The age old technique of adding a bowl of cold water to the water to cool it down again and letting it come to the boil again before removing the dumplings applies to frozen dumplings only.

Lucy,

I was happy to see the above directions! Don't have to wait as long to eat the dumplings

When we had a dumpling party with a professor from Nanjing, he and his wife insisted that we had to add the cold water, 3 times! I can't remember the rational. If it was an age old technique, it can't be because they had frozen dumplings...

We made and ate over 100 (22 people). You can imagine how much moisture I had in my house by the time we finished. My walls were sweating!

[project]

Lucy:

Many thanks, again!

You've got some of the best dough working instructions ever and by far the best I've seen for Chinese dumplings!

So, we really do want to work the gluten so that we get an elastic dough. I was guessing that we did not!

"1. Choose a low work surface to be able to get your weight involved."

No problem -- there's plenty of 'weight'!

"2. Even if it seems wicked hard, try to use as little water as you can get away with because once it's ready, it'll suddenly 'relax'."

Okay, I'll watch for that.

Some of the reading I have done, e.g.,

Rose Cheng and Michele Morris, 'Chinese Cookery', ISBN 0-89586-088-0, Berkley Publishing, New York, 1981.

says that can have two levels of moisture in the dough. So, use a wetter dough for 'potstickers' and a drier dough for steamed or boiled dumplings. I have been intending to go for the drier dough, and your instructions seem to have this same goal.

"3. You'll have to plan to knead vigorously for about 30 minutes. Last time I did it (but I'm really out of shape), my arm and hand were shaking for a full day afterward. So prepare for some serious muscle fatigue or get friends involved to knead on shifts."

I need the exercise! And, I'm about 6' 3".

"4. When it's ready it will suddenly become a whole lot easier to work. You'll be able to tell. It will be as if it is melting a little bit although temp has absolutely nothing to do with the process. It's the gluten which is finally breaking down and stretching out. You'll see it when it happens. It's almost impossible to overwork the dough when doing it by hand, so keep going until you observe this phenomenon."

Again, I'll watch.

"5. Divide the dough into parts about the size of baseballs when you're ready to make the skins and roll that into a snake. use your cleaver to slice the snake into managable bits to roll each one into a circle."

Yes, that was my plan.

From measuring sizes of various dumplings I have bought, I am guessing that the circles should be about 3 inches in diameter. Once I get a thickness I like, I will try to record the number of circles per pound of dough. Then, in the future, given a ball of dough, just weigh it, find how many circles it should make, roll the ball to a 'snake', and then space the cuts on the snake to get the right number of pieces with each piece quite accurately the right weight.

For doing my own ground pork, I'm intending to leave that to after promotion out of the first grade in dumpling school! While still in the first grade, I intend to use just grocery store ground pork. Also, somewhere, in the first grade or second, I intend to spring for some fresh shrimp.

I did wonder about just chopping the meat. I am willing to entertain that the resulting texture difference would be significant and possibly desirable.

The many descriptions I have read about adding cool water to boiling water and then boiling again, three times, struck me as traditional efforts at timing and temperature control and not as a crucial part of quality when timing and temperature control are handled well otherwise. Good to get your confirmation.

[bleudauvergne]

says that can have two levels of moisture in the dough. So, use a wetter dough for 'potstickers' and a drier dough for steamed or boiled dumplings. I have been intending to go for the drier dough, and your instructions seem to have this same goal.

I'm going to try that! My potstickers sometimes seem rather rubbery at the end. This must be the reason. Thanks for the tip!

I am guessing that the circles should be about 3 inches in diameter

Thats some pretty big dumplings you're planning there. Mine usually are about 2 inches in diameter, remember that the dough can stretch.

I did wonder about just chopping the meat. I am willing to entertain that the resulting texture difference would be significant and possibly desirable.

There would be more nooks and crannies to hold the juice! Mmmm!

adding cool water to boiling water ...

When you're using fresh ingredients it should not be necessary. Something I've thought of though, is that if you plan to make big dumplings (the further south you go the smaller people like to fold 'em - sizes vary all over china, they get nice and big in Beijing!) you might do some testing with the water temp to make sure they get cooked in the middle.

Thank you for the tips!

-Lucy

edited for spelling

Edited February 12, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[bleudauvergne]

We made and ate over 100 (22 people)

100 each, I hope!!

[Dejah]

We made and ate over 100 (22 people)

100 each, I hope!!

noooooooooo.......

We had several other items of interest to devour as well. As it was , averaging 4, 5 each, we had a hard time getting up from our chairs at the end of the session!

I was trying to make char sui bao last night. It must have been one of those "off nights'.

I used my Mom's recipe for the dough: 4 cups flour, 4 full tspspoons of baking powder,

2 cups milk, 1/2 tsp. salt. 1 cup sugar. I mixed this all up in my Kitchenaid with the dough hooks. I "knead" this for about 5 minutes, rested the dough, then knead again for 15 minutes. This was VERY sticky and soft. Made the baos up, steamed for 20 mintes and they came out 'THUD"! not the usual fluffy baos I make

It's been a long time since I made the dough from scratch....have been using a pre-mixed flour...then adding the sugar and milk.

Anyone have a fool-proof recipe and proceedure for steamed baos?

I now have 24 heavy ones to digest.

[jo-mel]

Dejah --- Keep in mind the 'dryness' of the flour, when you add liquid. I've found that there is never any true ratio of flour to water/milk because of the amount of moisture, or lack of it, in the flour.

[lorea]

....have been using a pre-mixed flour...then adding the sugar and milk.

Maybe your baking powder is no longer active?

[bleudauvergne]

Sorry I wasn't able to make dough and take photos of it, I came down with a very bad cold that has had me bedridden since Friday afternoon - But I promise as soon as I get better I'll do it.

-Lucy

[Dejah]

....have been using a pre-mixed flour...then adding the sugar and milk.

Maybe your baking powder is no longer active?

The container of baking powder was brand new...just bought it and opened when I was ready to make the baos.

Is there a way to check its effectiveness other than using vinegar, or with 24 "hockey puck" baos as I did?

I am going to try again tomorrow...just mantao. Don't want to waste any filling!

[bleudauvergne]

Dejah, You might be careful not to overwork the dough. Just like jiaozi needs to be beaten to a limpid pulp in order to make a cohesive skin that stays together, baozi need to maintain the individual fibers of gluten in order to be able to stretch and rise. The machine can break this down before you know it. If the molecules are broken down too far, they'll bind, and the leavening agent won't have the strength to puff up the cake. You might try working your baozi dough by hand next batch, or cut your machine time to about 1/4 of what you have, see how it's rising, and knead the second time by hand.

Hope it works out!

-Lucy

[ellencho]

For all you home made dumpling skin advocates: are they worth making if you're only going to be steaming shumai? Or is it better to just stick with the prepackaged rounds for the shumai? I can see how the texture of wrapper is important for something that you might pan fry, like a potsticker, but for shumai I was thinking that the important thing is more the juiciness of the filling.

[jo-mel]

Machine wrappers for me for Shao Mai, and also for my favorite Pot Sticker ( ala Rhoda Yee and Hugh Carpenter)

However, for boiled jiaozi, I want the chewy home-made dough.

[Dejah]

Dejah,  You might be careful not to overwork the dough. 

Hope it works out! 

-Lucy

Lucy,

Thanks for the tips. I am going to try again today, and come hell or high water,

no matter how many batches I have to make up, I am going to get to the bottom of this,

or the top if they rise!

I, too, use store bought wraps for sui mai For boiled dumplings and potstickers,

I make my own.

[lorea]

I like homemade peels for steamed/boiled dumplings and potstickers, but storebought for shu mai and wontons for that slurpy texture.

To test if your baking powder is still effective, just take a glass of hot water and drop a bit of baking powder in it. If it fizzes, it's still good. I wouldn't trust the "new package" thing...I've had a bad new package of baking powder before.

[bleudauvergne]

Project noted on another thread that he measures the soy and vinegar for his jiaozi dipping sauce. What are your soy/vinegar ratios and what brand vinegar are people using?

I normally use Narcissus brand Yongchun Laogu (Black vinegar) -

I add garlic finely minced (I do not put garlic in my jiaozi, only ginger) and a few drops sesame oil in each dish of sauce.

What do you do for jiaozi sauce?

Edited May 19, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[Yuki]

I use coarsely chopped garlic and add enough red vinegar to cover the garlic for the sauce. Maybe trying black vinegar next time would be a good idea. My version of jiaozi sauce probably aren't even close to the traditional kind.

After eating the jiaozi, I like to drink the vinegar and garlic mixture.

[Gary Soup]

What are your soy/vinegar ratios and what brand vinegar are people using? 

We often use straight Zhenjiang (Chinkiang) vinegar. It's not overly acid, slighly sweet and nicely aromatic.