Newbie seeking references for dry measure

[Chris Denzler]

Hello,
I am completely new to these forums and do not know yet which forum is most appropriate for what I am seeking.  Since this is my first post I figured I should start at the New member forum!  I sent the following question to Modernist Cuisine, since they are in the area that I live, and they pointed me here.

 

This is the exact question that I submitted to Modernist Cuisine:

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My name is Chris Denzler and I teach Culinary math at Seattle Central College.   This quarter my class discovered that Wikipedia had no definition for the unit of measurement the flat.

I decided we should research this and write the Wikipedia page.

We are currently seeking out solid references for this unit, as we have so far found two conflicting definitions (12 pints or 8 quarts), that are different from what the USDA quotes (they mention 12- 1/2 pint flats in one of their handbooks but never define it.).

We suspect that 12 pints is what is used locally, and we have figured out that these are probably dry pints.

Where do we go to find good references for our Wikipedia page, and do you happen to know the correct value?

Thanks in advance!

                               - Chris

[pastrygirl]

There may be no standard definition other than that the produce is packed in one shallow layer (or sometimes two with clamshells) and there is no cover to the box.  Here are a few links to the flat box suppliers, maybe they will help.  There are a lot of different sizes of flats, for example strawberries come in a larger flat than blueberries or raspberries.

 

https://www.glacierv.com/SPD/-433-corrugated-white-berry-flat-tray-shipper---fancy-berries---500-pack--8B0000-946236273.jsp

https://www.berryhilldrip.com/Boxes-and-Flats-for-Berries-and-Cherry-Tomatoes-Sold-by-Case.html

http://www.unionjackstable.com/tote-shallow-berry-flats/

[Martin Fisher]

Around here, "flat" is a general term...basically groups of a product of a given quantity and measure.

Edited May 19, 2016 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[AlaMoi]

dry measures are pretty much left in the Wild West.

 

"dry" pints/quarts/etc are defined in cubic inches - but not the same cubic inches as liquids.

 

thence commeth the issue of "the flat"

 

classically it is a wooden doohickey that holds 12 dry pint containers.

but, measuring the len x width x ht of "ye olde typical flat" - you get more cubic inches.

why?  well, you may have noticed the classic dry pint container is tapered to the bottom....

so, 12 "containers" - but sans containers, more cubic inches fit in the wooden thingie....

 

bottom line:  you may have to travel many worlds before you find a binding definition.

[Martin Fisher]

Avocados, Flat or carton, 2 layer, 26 lbs.

Chives, Flat of 12 pots, 10 lbs.

Dewberries, Flat, 12 ½-pint baskets, 6 lbs.

Figs, fresh Flat, 1 layer tray pack, 6 lbs.

Kiwifruit, California, 1-layer flat, 4-5 lbs.

Mangoes, Florida, Flat, 14 lbs.

Persimmons, 1-layer tray pack, flat or carton, 10-12 lbs.

Raspberries, Flat 12 ½-pint baskets, 6 lbs.

Tomatoes, 2-layer flat, 20 lbs.

 

Source: Weights, Measures, and Conversion Factors for Agricultural Commodities and Their Products. USDA Agricultural Handbook No. 697.

[Anna N]

Eggs are also sold in Flats.  30 eggs/flat

[Chris Denzler]

Wow, thank you all!  We are just getting started, but you can watch this web page evolve at:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Flat_%28measurement%29#Unit_of_volume_Measurement

(If I got the link to post correctly!  If not, you can go to my wikipedia user page User:cdenzler, and click on the link "/sandbox" and you will be redirected to the page)

 

In fact, you can contribute to editing/building this page.  My students and I just started last week by going to wikipedia.org, and typing WP:TWA into the search bar.  This takes you on The Wikipedia Adventure, learning how to create and edit a page in Wikipedia.  It takes about an hour to go through, and exposes you to (an initially overwhelming) bit of information on how to edit.

 

I see that eGullet has some strict netiquette protocols.  What is the proper way to share your messages with my students?  Should I have them subscribe to the eGullet forums?  I am assuming it would not be cool to copy and paste your responses to forward to them...

 

                                     - Chris

[Chris Denzler]

AlaMoi said:  " you may have to travel many worlds before you find a binding definition."

 

I have felt this for the last couple of weeks since I started researching this topic.  It's certainly not a project that will even be very far off the ground by the due date, June 9th.  I try to be very flexible as an instructor, even in the middle of the quarter.  Students love extra credit opportunities, and I decided this assignment was important and cool enough to potentially raise their final grade a full letter grade for the quarter.  Some students have the bit between their teeth and others don't feel it is worth their time. 

 

Those that are participating have bought in to my "unique contribution to the sum of freely available human knowledge" speech. 

 

Or they just want to get an "A", I'm not sure yet.

 

In any case, I should be teaching Culinary Math again almost every quarter, and I am planning on offering my future students the same deal.  A good bit of the course is about unit conversions, and research and work of this kind is (IMO) interdisciplinary, memorable, resume-worthy, and just right, proper, and good.

 

Thanks again,

 

                                     - Chris

[AlaMoi]

to paraphrase some famous guy . . . "Well, you see here, what we have is a problem of well defined differences."

 

if you want to start a war, go to the Baking section and ask "How much does a cup of flour weigh?"

rather a lot of foodstuffs are of varying density - natural products tend to vary like that . . .

and how they are processed can make quite large differences - salt is salt, but a cup of popcorn salt and a cup of coarse sea salt do not weigh the same.

[Chris Denzler]

It's starting to look like "flat" is a really just a synonym for "box".

 

                         - Chris

[Anna N]

32 minutes ago, Chris Denzler said:

It's starting to look like "flat" is a really just a synonym for "box".

 

                         - Chris

Perhaps "container"?  Hard to call an egg container a box. 

[pastrygirl]

49 minutes ago, Chris Denzler said:

It's starting to look like "flat" is a really just a synonym for "box".

 

                         - Chris

 

A particular proportion, though.  Shallow and without a lid or flaps to close.  Sometimes with a divider in the middle but otherwise a tray rather than a carton.

[Alex]

On 5/20/2016 at 1:57 AM, Chris Denzler said:

Students love extra credit opportunities, and I decided this assignment was important and cool enough to potentially raise their final grade a full letter grade for the quarter.  Some students have the bit between their teeth and others don't feel it is worth their time.

 

They certainly do -- and no doubt this could be a cool assignment. However, much to some of my students' dismay, I was firmly in the "Don't even ask" camp (Intro and Abnormal Psych). But that's not a food-related topic (except as pertains to this assignment), so if you'd like to have a discussion about extra-credit opportunities, please feel free to start one in the Off-Topic Forum. I'd be glad to explain my reasoning there. Or I can reply to a PM.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Alex
to add information (log)

[serenityh]

Welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy it here!