Various Chinese cuisines

[Gary Soup]

Got it.  Since I'm an ABC, I grasp this perfectly well.  But Teo Chew?  C'mon.  Granted I don't speak any dialects, but I'm really curious which dialect has Teo Chew as the name for Chaozhou.  The hard consonant 'T' seems a pretty far reach if I'm reading the transliteration correctly.

Not so far-fetched. I'm familiar with Shanghainese dialect (through my extended family) and it's amazing how Shanghainese (compared with Mandarin) can turn C sounds into T sounds, J's into K's, R's into L's or Z's, and L's, W's or Y's into N's, for example. Final N's usually get dropped, and often turn the preceding vowel from short to long.

Contrary to what herbacidal said, there's no refuge in the written language, either. Character order will vary among dialects (linguistically they actually are separate languages), idiomatic forms may be mutually incomprehensible, and printed characters are sometimes made up to represent words or pronunciations that are unique to a region. Although local Chinese print media here in San Francisco (such as the regional edition of Sing Tao Daily) generally adhere to consistency with Mandarin form, other documents (such as the Chinese version of the California Drivers' Instruction Manual) which were apparently translated from English by Cantonese speakers, are unintelligible in places to non-Cantonese Chinese persons.

But what does this all have to do with food?

[Jon Tseng]

Dunno but chiu chow do good goose

J

[Shiewie]

Steamed fish and fish balls too.

[Jon Tseng]

and fish balls too. 

sounds painful...

[herbacidal]

Contrary to what herbacidal said, there's no refuge in the written language, either.  Character order will vary among dialects (linguistically they actually are separate languages), idiomatic forms may be mutually incomprehensible, and printed characters are sometimes made up to represent words or pronunciations that are unique to a region.  Although local Chinese print media here in San Francisco (such as the regional edition of Sing Tao Daily) generally adhere to consistency with Mandarin form, other documents (such as the Chinese version of the California Drivers' Instruction Manual) which were apparently translated from English by Cantonese speakers, are unintelligible in places to non-Cantonese Chinese persons.

But what does this all have to do with food? 

the drivers manual thing is new to me. my mistake.

guess you learn something new every day.

the idiomatic difference is no big deal though, that's no different than somebody from the northeast US not understanding a particular American English term from somebody in let's say Texas.

despite character order, most chinese i've met would understand things regardless. between context and the particulars of the word, they'd figure it out.

but this has absolutely nothing to do with food. however, i am enjoying it.

[titus wong]

the drivers manual thing is new to me. my mistake. guess you learn something new every day.[\QUOTE]

Yep. Thanks to Shiewie btw, for chiming in about the local pronunciation of 'T' as 'duh.'

but this has absolutely nothing to do with food. however, i am enjoying it.[\QUOTE]

Me too. Since it forms distinct variety of Chinese cuisine, I think this discussion has as much merit say, as the thread concerning Peking Duck.

[titus wong]

Oops, misfire -- was trying to edit my mangled message above.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Edited August 29, 2003 by titus wong (log)

[Gary Soup]

the drivers manual thing is new to me.  my mistake.

guess you learn something new every day.

the idiomatic difference is no big deal though, that's no different than somebody from the northeast US not understanding a particular American English term from somebody in let's say Texas.

despite character order, most chinese i've met would understand things regardless.  between context and the particulars of the word, they'd figure it out.

You are right, it's not a big thing, as far as I can tell. But sometimes a minor difference can lead to confusion, as in the case of an instruction manual of any type. Even in the case of the professional media, the differences are sometimes palpable. When my wife first came to the US, she would read the Taiwan-based World Journal because it was "easier" than the Hong Kong-based Sing Tao Daily. She soon switched loyalties, however, because Sing Tao had more relevant local news, and it doesn't appear to be particularly burdensome for her to read it. But the spoken dialects, of course, are a horse of another color.

[Ian]

Hello,

Given the knowledgeable people in here I thought I'd ask about Wenzhou cuisine. The long and short of it is that there's a nice little restaurant in Paris, France called "Salon de Thé Wenzhou" which offers dumplings, noodles and the like. Since my visit there I've been trying to find out more about Wenzhou. All I've discovered is that it's a harbour town in Zhejiang Province. Consequently seafood figures heavily. However, "Salon de Thé Wenzhou" seems more interested in the use of Pork and Chinese black vinegar! Can you give me any other ideas of specialities in this area of China?

Many thanks,

Edited September 2, 2003 by Ian (log)

[Gary Soup]

Here's a snippet about Wenzhou, including a half-sentence about its cuisine. It's really in a remote corner of Zhejiang, and the people speak a dialect that's incomprehensible to everyone but themselves. The pork and black rice vinegar sounds Shanghainese, which I wouldn't expect. (I would expect Ningbo and Fujianese influences.)

Wenzhou is noted for having sent a large number of migrants abroad in the past, especially to Europe, so maybe there's a Wenzhou colony in Paris!

Wenzhou

[skchai]

Wenzhou is known as one of the four classic cuisines of Zhejiang Province. The others are Hangzhou, Shaoxing, and Ningbo. Hangzhou is the most famous.

On the web, I did manage to find this short snippet:

Wenzhou cuisine is one of the four noted cuisines of Zhejiang Province. It is light on the use of oil, and often uses yellow croaker fish, crab and squid as ingredients.

Beyond that, I know almost nothing. Anyone here able to clarify?

[herbacidal]

is hangzhou the most famous cuisine? it is definitely the most famous city of those four cities in China. Shaoxing wine is used for cooking. Ningbo I can't recall, but I'm sure there's something from there.

four classic cuisines of Zhejiang?

Zhejiang wouldn't even be one of the four most highly regarded cuisines in China.

doesn't mean it's not interesting and delicious nonetheless, just that it's weird. i'd speculate that the various minority cuisines in Yunnan are more well known in the US than Zhejiang food.

ethnography has always intrigued me though. gonna hafta look into this some more.

damm you. something else to for me to waste time on.

[Gary Soup]

four classic cuisines of Zhejiang?

Zhejiang wouldn't even be one of the four most highly regarded cuisines in China.

I think you are trolling, Herbacidal. If you reduced Chinese cuisines to four, they would be most likely be Su-Hang (encompassing Zhejiang), Northern (Beijing/Shandong/Manchu), Cantonese/Chaozhou and Sichuan/Hunan.

i'd speculate that the various minority cuisines in Yunnan are more well known in the US than Zhejiang food.

When's the last time you went to a restaurant in the US that DIDN'T have Westlake Soup on the menu? How about Sour West Lake Fish, Tea Shrimp, Beggar's Chicken, Su Dongpo pork? Anything with shredded bamboo shoots?

[Pan]

When I visited China in 1987, Hangzhou was the place where I had the best food, with Wuxi also memorable for the great Wuxi Spareribs I had. If Hangzhou is not a top Chinese city for fine food, which ones are?

[herbacidal]

four classic cuisines of Zhejiang?

Zhejiang wouldn't even be one of the four most highly regarded cuisines in China.

I think you are trolling, Herbacidal. If you reduced Chinese cuisines to four, they would be most likely be Su-Hang (encompassing Zhejiang), Northern (Beijing/Shandong/Manchu), Cantonese/Chaozhou and Sichuan/Hunan.

if i were to reduce it to 4:

Sichuan + Hunan

Cantonese

Beijing+Shandong(+Manchuria?)

I would expect Manchurian to be more hardy, not quite like Beijing, although there would definitely be influences. Don't know enough myself.

Xian and area

BTW, what is trolling?

i'd speculate that the various minority cuisines in Yunnan are more well known in the US than Zhejiang food.

When's the last time you went to a restaurant in the US that DIDN'T have Westlake Soup on the menu? How about Sour West Lake Fish, Tea Shrimp, Beggar's Chicken, Su Dongpo pork? Anything with shredded bamboo shoots?

This is different. I should have been more specific.

I was starting with commentary about Zhejiang cuisine and perception as one of the classical cuisines in China.

As far as the dishes you mention, this is a separate issue than above, because people IMO would lump these in with Cantonese, since the restaurants have been mostly Cantonese in America that serve these dishes.

Are there any Zhejiangese restaurants in the US? I didn't know there were any Yunnan cuisine restaurants until they were mentioned in a thread on the CA board recently.

They're on the menu, but most people wouldn't recognize them as Zhejiang. They recognize Sichuan and Fukien because of the separate restaurants, but also because the food is different enough, whereas there are much too many common characteristics between Zhejiang and Cantonese food for most people to distinguish.

Most of these dishes you've mentioned, I don't recognize in my area, I will admit, although it has been a long time since I looked at menus. I tend to just order from either talking with waitstaff or what I remember liking from my waitering days.

[herbacidal]

When I visited China in 1987, Hangzhou was the place where I had the best food, with Wuxi also memorable for the great Wuxi Spareribs I had. If Hangzhou is not a top Chinese city for fine food, which ones are?

really. that's interesting. okay more people with wenzhou+hangzhou food experience. maybe i've just been talking to the wrong people.

when people have referred to hangzhou to me, it's just been about the scenery. the food has never ever been mentioned.

[Gary Soup]

BTW, what is trolling?

"Trolling" is being deliberately provocative in order to start a heated exchange, which often leads to flaming. Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions.

As far as the dishes you mention, this is a separate issue than above, because people IMO would lump these in with Cantonese, since the restaurants have been mostly Cantonese in America that serve these dishes. 

You're proving my point that Zhejiang cuisine is major. The dishes have been "borrowed" by Cantonese Restaurants in the US precisely because they are so famous. Many Cantonese Restaurants also offer Peking Duck, would you consider that a Cantonese dish?

Are there any Zhejiangese restaurants in the US?  I didn't know there were any Yunnan cuisine restaurants until they were mentioned in a thread on the CA board recently.

Zhejiang cuisine is folded into what is usually called "Shanghainese" cuisine. Shanghai has no broad cuisine of its own, per se, but you will find many Shanghainese restaurants. They usually offer menus that skillfully balance the saltiness of Zhejiang cuisine with the sweetness of Jiangsu cuisine.

If you are talking about the thread on the LA board, "Real Yuanan or Sichuan in S.G. Valley (LA), Spicy hot food and where to find it", that confused the heck out of me. They may be talking about food from the Yunnan-Sichuan border region, which I would consider Sichuan cuisine. To me, a "Yunnan" Restaurant would feature Chinese muslim food, and not be overly spicy.

Nice little Yunnan food page

[herbacidal]

while i wasn't being deliberately provocative, i am enjoying this thread immensely.

You're proving my point that Zhejiang cuisine is major. The dishes have been "borrowed" by Cantonese Restaurants in the US precisely because they are so famous. Many Cantonese Restaurants also offer Peking Duck, would you consider that a Cantonese dish?

I wouldn't say that. I would say that the similarities between the 2 cuisines meant it was easier for Cantonese restaurants to take the best-known dishes of Zhejiang and incorporated them into the menu to have as large a set of offerings as possible to provide the customers.

Did the same though with a few of the Hunan and Sichuan and Beijing area.

That in itself doesn't mean it's a major cuisine. Even minor cuisines have their value and worth.

Zhejiang cuisine is folded into what is usually called "Shanghainese" cuisine. Shanghai has no broad cuisine of its own, per se, but you will find many Shanghainese restaurants. They usually offer menus that skillfully balance the saltiness of Zhejiang cuisine with the sweetness of Jiangsu cuisine.

Well, so it is the major component of Shanghaiese food. Actually, that is probably true, as I don't really recall any really distinctive food from Shanghai. The folding in of Zhejiang and other areas is definitely reasonable.

Jiangsu cuisine I don't recall distinct dishes really, a shame because I was there for 3 months. I just considered it a dish from up north, non-Cantonese, even though it's not really that far north. That's another lacking/failing on my part.

Edited September 4, 2003 by herbacidal (log)

[tissue]

Wenzhou is known for their great big wontons

[trillium]

Just to add... there are some dialects that have many every day usage words with no corresponding character...even more fun and confusion!

regards,

trillium

[herbacidal]

very true. in that respect, no different than english.

except it's a little easier to throw something together on the fly in english since there is an alphabet.

such as y'all, although it is a contraction of you all, it was nonetheless created based on its development orally.

i suppose in chinese, you would put components together to form a word that would appropriately reflect a meaning and sound.

[aprilmei]

Hi, I'm living in Hong Kong (main dialect Cantonese) and the usual spelling in English is Chiu Chow. But in Singapore/Malaysia, as Gary pointed out (where main dialect is Mandarin) it's Teo Chow. And in Bangkok (where there's a surprisingly big Chinese population but I don't know which dialect they speak; the Chinese there speak Thai and have taken on Thai names) it tends to be Chaozhou.

and Herbacidal, you're mostly correct in that written Chinese doesn't differentiate between dialects, but in Hong Kong they use the traditional (old fashioned, complicated) characters. In most of the rest of the world (China, Singapore, Malaysia) they use simplified characters.

[herbacidal]

my impression is that most of the overseas Chinese communities

(IE everywhere but China and Taiwan) and Taiwan used traditional Chinese. If they use simplified Chinese in Malaysia and Taiwan, that's news to me.

The people abroad tend to be "old folks" types, and simplified wasn't used when they were still around, why would they change their habits when they were abroad? At least, that was my theory.

The modernity aspect of using simplified Chinese was only appreciated by students in China. I thought that many of the older folk (above 40??) in China used traditional Chinese. At least that seemed to be true the last time I was in China was in late 1997-early 1998. Just more support for my theory.

I had also thought that most of the overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia were Cantonese. Anyone know one way or the other?

[aprilmei]

Herbacidal, I should have been more precise: the official way of writing in China is with simplified characters. Just like the official dialect is Mandarin but in a country of 1.6 billion (isn't it something like that?) there are still many who don't speak the official dialect.

In SE Asia, they might be from Southern China but the dialect they are taught in schools (at least in Singapore/Malaysia) is Mandarin. Many of my friends (from Singapore and Malaysia) also speak several other dialects, like Hakka, Fujian.

When I first came to HK, I tried speaking my family's dialect (which I don't know fluently): Toi San. The looks I got were dreadful - like I was some little peasant straight from the countryside. It might also have been my awful American accent mixed in with the village dialect.

[Shiewie]

Not sure about the rest of South East Asia but the Chinese community in Malaysia are mainly from a mixture of southern dialect groups - here are some figures - 35% Hokkien, 23% Hakka, 19% Cantonese, 12% Teochew, 5% Hainanese and 6% others - this came from a recent local news article which reported that 80% of all Chinese programmes on a government TV channel will be in Mandarin. I think the Chinese in Singapore are from similar dialect groups as Malaysia but the percentage of Teochew is higher there. Like Aprilmei, my impression is that the Chinese in Thailand are predominantly Teochew but have assimilated such that the younger generation no longer speak any Chinese. A friend whose mother is Thai Chinese has cousins who only speak Thai.

Most of the older generation here in Malaysia still speak dialects but those under the age of 25 are more likely to speak Mandarin than a dialect (that is if they can speak any Chinese at all - I have friends who don't as their parents do not share a common Chinese dialect and hence they converse in English) as Chinese schools here use Mandarin as the main medium of instruction (it's now the trend for Chinese parents here to send their kids to Chinese primary/grade shcool but wasn't so when I went to school). Cantonese is widely understood as HK drama serials are very popular here (on TV and video rentals).

Singapore had (has?) a speak Mandarin campaign and everyone there assumes that you do speak Mandarin if you look Chinese. HK Cantonese serials shown on TV in Singapore are dubbed in Mandarin.

Chinese schools in Malaysia use simplified Chinese now (has been so for the last 15 years or so in line with China, which uses simplified Chinese, rising from its economic slumber) and Singapore does too (earlier than Malaysia I think). There are 2 main Chinese newspapers in Malaysia, one's published in traditional Chinese characters whereas the other uses simplified Chinese characters.