One If By Land, Two If By Sea

[James Kessler]

It's not right letting you get the last word on this, especially saying something so dreadful. Let me make a proposal: If we were to compare OIBL to TOTG and CDA, what kind of comparisons could we make? Would it be accurate to claim that OIBL comes out ahead of the other two?

[oakapple]

I think it's more reasonable to put this restaurant in a class with similar places like Tavern on the Green and Cafe des Artistes, which fill a useful and important niche, but aren't known mainly for their food.

Yes, we need restaurants for people who don't care about food.

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It isn't so much a matter of "not caring about food." There are a lot of people who don't eat at fine dining restaurants very often, and to whom a place like OIBL or CDA is fine dining. To that crowd, the great romantic appeal of these restaurants has considerable pull. If you interviewed patrons coming out of either establishment, by and large they would tell you that they had an extremely enjoyable meal, and that they found the surroundings enchanting.

It's not right letting you get the last word on this, especially saying something so dreadful.  Let me make a proposal: If we were to compare OIBL to TOTG and CDA, what kind of comparisons could we make?  Would it be accurate to claim that OIBL comes out ahead of the other two?

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It has been many years since I ate at OIBL or CDA, and I've never been to TOTG, except to take a quick look inside. Based on a quick perusal of their on-line menus, the initial impression is that OIBL is aiming a bit higher than CDA, which in turn is aiming a bit higher than TOTG. How well they in fact achieve what they're aiming at would require more recent experience, which I'm not prepared to invest in.

FYI, One if By Land, Two if By Sea has a prix fixe menu at $69 and a tasting menu at $79. There appears to be no a la carte menu. The famed Beef Wellington (the one dish most people agree the restaurant does well) carries a $6.00 supplement. The Executive Chef is one Gary Volkov.

At Café des Artiste, the menu is a la carte. Most apps are in the $10-14 range, although Salmon Five Ways is $19, and Lobster Salad is $23. Mains are in a wide range, from $24 (Calf's Liver) to Dover Sole ($47). Most are between $26 and $37. Sides are $8 apiece. The Chef de Cuisine is one Joseph Paulino.

At Tavern on the Green, apps are generally in the $11-16 range. Mains range from $21 (Penne alla Vodka) to $39 (Prime Rib). The prix fixe theatre menu is $39. The restaurant's website seems to emphasize its location and attractive décor over the food. Indeed, I had to stare at the website for a little while before finding the tiny button that takes you to the on-line menu.

Edited November 12, 2005 by oakapple (log)

[James Kessler]

It has been many years since I ate at OIBL or CDA, and I've never been to TOTG, except to take a quick look inside. Based on a quick perusal of their on-line menus, the initial impression is that OIBL is aiming a bit higher than CDA, which in turn is aiming a bit higher than TOTG. How well they in fact achieve what they're aiming at would require more recent experience, which I'm not prepared to invest in.

FYI, One if By Land, Two if By Sea has a prix fixe menu at $69 and a tasting menu at $79. There appears to be no a la carte menu. The famed Beef Wellington (the one dish most people agree the restaurant does well) carries a $6.00 supplement. The Executive Chef is one Gary Volkov.

At Café des Artiste, the menu is a la carte. Most apps are in the $10-14 range, although Salmon Five Ways is $19, and Lobster Salad is $23. Mains are in a wide range, from $24 (Calf's Liver) to Dover Sole ($47). Most are between $26 and $37. Sides are $8 apiece. The Chef de Cuisine is one Joseph Paulino.

At Tavern on the Green, apps are generally in the $11-16 range. Mains range from $21 (Penne alla Vodka) to $39 (Prime Rib). The prix fixe theatre menu is $39. The restaurant's website seems to emphasize its location and attractive décor over the food. Indeed, I had to stare at the website for a little while before finding the tiny button that takes you to the on-line menu.

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Very well put, Oakapple. How restaurants aim is not always what they achieve. I have eaten at both CDA and OIBL. OIBL was the more recent experience. I felt it did indeed achive its goal. Quite right about claiming that the "romance" is one of the draws of places such as these. OIBL seemed to me to offer the romantic appeal as well as a modecum of what approaches decent food. CDA was underwhelming to me in service, romance, and food appeal as well. Incidentally, I may be mistaken, but I think OIBL does have an ala carte menu as well as the tasting menu. Nothing I ate there was at all inedible, whereas at CDA some of the dishes were extremely unpleasant to my palate. After tasting some meals at restaurants known for having far superior food to any of the restaurants we are discussing on this thread, I can see where the disdain comes from about places such as these. I happen to think IMHO, that OIBL manages to attain a certain level of quality both in their service and in the food that supasses CDA, which I have tried. There is no need to even mention OIBL in the same breath as any of the "top" restaurants in Manhattan known for their incredible cuisine. However, among the "niche" we are discussing here on this thread, I feel that OIBL comes out ahead of others. If someone asked me where to go for a romantic "old New York" type of meal, maybe they were tourists who enjoy food but aren't amateur restaurant critics, I would send them to OIBL instead of Jean Georges or Daniel or Per Se or Ducasse. Why? I think it's obvious that for people who are looking for a certain dining experience, a place like OIBL can provide that experience better than a restaurant like Ducasse. I certainly won't make a ludicrous claim that OIBL has better food or even a better overall experience than Ducasse or Daniel or the like... just a different experience. Call it a niche, but I think in a town like NYC there is room for both types of restaurants. Both fill an important role in the restaurant scene.

[R Washburn]

It's not right letting you get the last word on this, especially saying something so dreadful. 

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I thought I was just being honest. Do most people choose "One if By Land, Two If By Sea" for the food, or the setting?

Let me make a proposal: If we were to compare OIBL to TOTG and CDA, what kind of comparisons could we make?  Would it be accurate to claim that OIBL comes out ahead of the other two?

No, I would place it between the two. I have had some pretty good meals at Cafe des Artistes as well as some very poor ones. I can't say that any of those restaurants make my personal "top 100", but that doesn't mean that "One If By Land, Two if by Sea" is a bad restaurant. Taste is subjective; plenty of people here think that my favorite restaurant (Daniel) serves terrible food. I strongly disagree.

[Nathan]

seriously, does anyone contest that OIBLTIBS serves the worst food in its price range? that it may be better than CDA or TOG isn't saying much considering that both of those are tourist destination restaurants at a lower price point (that you can eat there as expensively doesn't change the fact that you can also eat there for considerably cheaper). If I'm going to be ripped off I'd prefer to keep the costs down.

[Bux]

seriously, does anyone contest that OIBLTIBS serves the worst food in its price range?  that it may be better than CDA or TOG isn't saying much considering that both of those are tourist destination restaurants at a lower price point (that you can eat there as expensively doesn't change the fact that you can also eat there for considerably cheaper).  If I'm going to be ripped off I'd prefer to keep the costs down.

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There is no reason for anyone who does a little home work to reserve at a NY restaurant where they are likely to be ripped off. Be that as it may, as Washburn has noted, some of us who think highly of our own taste in food, have read negative reports about other people's dinners at our favorite places. I have also read rave reviews of restaurants I regard as tourist traps. One of the many shortcomings of messages boards is that the participants in any given thread are often coming from very different places and seeing the thread with different perspectives. I remember the first time I read a highly positive review of OIBL,TIBS. I wondered how such a gem passed my notice until then.

. . . Carmines.  . . .  There's a great old world atmosphere,  . . .  the only thing wrong was the bowtie pasta was a tad raw. Besides that, everything was great and we had a wonderful time. I highly reccomend the place.

There's not even a murmur of disagreement in the thread that follows. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on one's perspective, I have heard of Carmines.

[R Washburn]

I ate there with my Fiancee on New Year's Eve around 18 months ago.  I proposed to her there at the special New Year's Eve celebration dinner.  It was somewhat expensive, but I think it was well worth it.  I do have the menu if anyone is interested.  I'll fish it out of the treasure box if someone asks about it.  I can say that the special treatment we got was quite remarkable.  The host took the ring from me when we arrived, and presented it on a silver platter (covered) surrounded by fresh rose petals, right before dessert was served.  I didn't request this; it was just thought up by the host.  If he is reading this, I would like to thank him for such an amazing job.  Also I think I should apologize for getting so... er, ... nervous.  I definately lost my cool that night, but it all worked out.  Anyway.  The point is, this restaurant is incredibly romantic and perfect in its presentation and service.  Some of the most extrordinary waitstaff I've ever seen in my life, even when we came back again for restaurant week the following summer.

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If I had an experience like that at "One If By Land.." it would probably by "our" special occasion restaurant, at least for our anniversary. As it is I have to judge it on its own merits since it isn't doesn't have any special meaning for us. No wonder you are so fond of the place.

Maybe "One If By Land.." is the best restaurant in NYC for a proposal, but only "fair" foodwise?

[Daniel]

seriously, does anyone contest that OIBLTIBS serves the worst food in its price range?  that it may be better than CDA or TOG isn't saying much considering that both of those are tourist destination restaurants at a lower price point (that you can eat there as expensively doesn't change the fact that you can also eat there for considerably cheaper).  If I'm going to be ripped off I'd prefer to keep the costs down.

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There is no reason for anyone who does a little home work to reserve at a NY restaurant where they are likely to be ripped off. Be that as it may, as Washburn has noted, some of us who think highly of our own taste in food, have read negative reports about other people's dinners at our favorite places. I have also read rave reviews of restaurants I regard as tourist traps. One of the many shortcomings of messages boards is that the participants in any given thread are often coming from very different places and seeing the thread with different perspectives. I remember the first time I read a highly positive review of OIBL,TIBS. I wondered how such a gem passed my notice until then.

. . . Carmines.  . . .  There's a great old world atmosphere,  . . .  the only thing wrong was the bowtie pasta was a tad raw. Besides that, everything was great and we had a wonderful time. I highly reccomend the place.

There's not even a murmur of disagreement in the thread that follows. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on one's perspective, I have heard of Carmines.

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Thats a very funny post Bux..

Edited November 28, 2005 by Daniel (log)

[Dryden]

We live around the corner from Carmine's. Every Friday and Saturday night, there's a huge crowd outside to get in. I realize this is the UWS, but don't people have tastebuds?

[oakapple]

We live around the corner from Carmine's.  Every Friday and Saturday night, there's a huge crowd outside to get in.  I realize this is the UWS, but don't people have tastebuds?

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It's important to recognize that we—the folk who populate forums like eGullet—are atypical. There is a very large and significant constituency to whom places like OIBL and Carmine's are "great restaurants."

[rich]

OIBL has its moments. It's still very enjoyable around Christmas - especialy with the decorations, fireplaces and piano player - great bar.

The Tasting Menu at $75 with the Wellington (still the best in the city - at least it was two years ago) is decent. I've spent $75 for worse meals. Bottom line - average food with top notch surroundings for the holidays. Good to go once a year - eat every other year at Annisa (next door) and use OIBL as your cocktail lounge.

This is my year to eat there, so I hope it's still passable.

[Jeff L]

We live around the corner from Carmine's.  Every Friday and Saturday night, there's a huge crowd outside to get in.  I realize this is the UWS, but don't people have tastebuds?

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It's important to recognize that we—the folk who populate forums like eGullet—are atypical. There is a very large and significant constituency to whom places like OIBL and Carmine's are "great restaurants."

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Boy, I could not agree more. It truly does seem that we are travelling in our own little world. I shudder to think how the rest of our non-foodie friends eat, whether at home or dining out.

We were invited to a couple neighborhood parties over the past few months. The first served hot dogs and some other stuff equally wrong. I will say at least they were New York Kosher hot dogs but still, a dinner party? The next party featured hamburgers as their main course...frozen hamburger patties.

We live an an upscale suburban Philadelphia neighborhood with neighbors who typically have high end jobs in the pharmaceutical industry or are otherwise self employeed as attorneys and business owners. It's just scary is all I'm saying...the utter lack of regard to food preparation at all.

We have had a few dinner parties here (reluctantly but one must reciproacte mustn't one) and we tend to present our neighbors with food we would offer our foodie friends. That is, well thought out interesting and flavorful things. Sure it takes effort, but what good things don't? It just seems most people are entirely clueless about food, whether home cooked or restaurants.

[Bux]

Thats a very funny post Bux..

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It's a funny site that way.

It's important to recognize that we—the folk who populate forums like eGullet—are atypical. There is a very large and significant constituency to whom places like OIBL and Carmine's are "great restaurants."

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As I said, there's a thread on eGullet with a post rather raving about Carmines, and there's not a disagreeing comment. Two members expressed thanks for the post that included the rave review of Carmines. Surely a visitor to the site could easily come away assuming Carmines meets the demands of the membership.

[Pan]

In at least one respect, eGullet is like the much- (and I think justly-) maligned Zagat: Those of us who have never been to a place don't (and shouldn't) have much to say about its quality, pro or con. In order to judge whether or not to trust a particular opinion of a member, you have to get a feel for his/her opinions, generally.

[R Washburn]

In at least one respect, eGullet is like the much- (and I think justly-) maligned Zagat: Those of us who have never been to a place don't (and shouldn't) have much to say about its quality, pro or con. In order to judge whether or not to trust a particular opinion of a member, you have to get a feel for his/her opinions, generally.

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Yes, the problem with negative reports is that if you didn't like a restaurant on your first visit, you are unlikely to return. My only experience at "One If By Land..." was okay, but not enough to draw me back, and the other reports I read here are consistent with my experience.

[Dryden]

Thats a very funny post Bux..

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It's a funny site that way.

It's important to recognize that we—the folk who populate forums like eGullet—are atypical. There is a very large and significant constituency to whom places like OIBL and Carmine's are "great restaurants."

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As I said, there's a thread on eGullet with a post rather raving about Carmines, and there's not a disagreeing comment. Two members expressed thanks for the post that included the rave review of Carmines. Surely a visitor to the site could easily come away assuming Carmines meets the demands of the membership.

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I think, with a place like Carmine's (and for that matter, places like Sea Grill, Tavern on the Green, etc.) there's a general tendency to not want to come off as being insensitive of someone else's opinion, coupled with a general assumption that "everyone knows not to eat there". I certainly know that we've been to cities where we were less than acquainted with the local food scene, but certain kinds of places/scenes always seem to stand up and announce themselves as if to say "if you give a damn about what you eat, this really isn't the place for you".

Actually, I think I'll start a thread about it.

[sammy]

Dryden, when was the last time you were at The Sea Grill? Although it gets its fair share of the tourist trade because of its location, I do not consider the food served to be "tourist" quality at all. Just look at the menu and compare it to the menu at TOTG.

And as for Carmines, I think the UWS location is more of a neighborhood restaurant than the one in the Theatre District. Not a "tourist" spot at all. All they did was copy vitually the entire menu from Don Peppe from Queens which serves excellent Southern Italian food family style. I also think, for good quality family style food at reasonable prices, it offers an excellent value proposition. Is it something to seek out, definitely not, but you won't go home unhappy having Baked Clams, a Caesar Salad, Rigatoni with Broccoli & Garlic and Chicken Contadina.

[Dryden]

Unfortunately, I was at Sea Grill last week for work. While the other 5 people at the table seemed to enjoy their meals, I couldn't help but notice:

-the fish that was served with all of the pinbones, and all of the other bones, still in it

-the vegetables "a la grecque" that were nothing of the sort. Pretty sure that limp, steamed vegetables are not what "a la grecque" is meant to entail...

-potato chips that were chewy in the middle. Kinda freaky, actually.

-the waiter who didn't know what barramundi was, but assured one of my companions "it's some weird asian fish". Australia, Asia, whatever.

The menu does read a lot better than most of these other places. That's about all it has going for it, really.

As for Carmine's on the UWS, let me tell you, people travel to get there. There are cars lined up outside on the weekends. There are legitimate HORDES of people trying to get in. While you won't go home unhappy, necessarily, considering that there are probably 100 better italian restaurants in Manhattan alone, why eat there?