Michelin '03

[thom]

Ok.

Fair points. To clarify:

I refer to the 'mains' at Hakkasan as such only because they were single dishes the size of the average Western main course, not because I would normally expect them to form a 'main' within a 'meal' as would be the case in the West. Usually, I would only eat dim sum for lunch, but as I mentioned we were in an investigative frame of mind and fancied giving the menu more of a work out.

I know this is continuing the veer off topic, but the Chinese food history is interesting. Is it too much to hope that there is a 'Thai Cooking' style book that someone could point me to?

Cheers

Thom

Edit: Peter, you just couldn't let it lie...

Edited January 20, 2003 by thom (log)

[Adam Balic]

Adam - I'm not sure about the cultural revolution argument.  That only lasted ten years and my gut reaction is that it could not have wiped out all the people who did the cooking you refer to and/or their records.  Perhaps it's more the case that the people who fled to Taiwan mostly came from a particular region of China ?

John - far point, but it was only a suggestion. I agree that it sounds incredible that this could occur, but it has happened before. If you have food culture that is only avalible to a tiny proportion of the population then it really only takes a small change in that particular society to result in the loss of that particular aspect of the food culture. The cultural revolution may have only lasted ten years, but its influence is obviously more far reaching then that. Can you imagine Mao saying "well chaps, the ten years is up and I think that we have made a jolly good show of mucking in with the peasants, does anybody here know of some decent food staff. A chef like the old Emp' had and maybe a boy to mix the drinks, one who knows not to put ice into the bloody scotch would be a good start".

This is only a educated guess. I will look into it and start a thread on the Chinese board when I have the time.

Thom - you really haven't heard about David Thompson's "Thai Cooking"? . Is joke, no?

[thom]

Adam,

It could have been, but unfortunately it is to early on a Monday for wit.

I actually meant "Is there a book which sheds light on Chinese cuisine and culture?" in the same way that 'Thai Cooking' has opened my eyes to Thai.

In retrospect, the wording is a bit wooly. Again I blame Monday morning.

Cheers

Thom

[macrosan]

I blame Monday morning

So did the Mamas and the Papas

[Gavin Jones]

Adam - I'm not sure about the cultural revolution argument.  That only lasted ten years and my gut reaction is that it could not have wiped out all the people who did the cooking you refer to and/or their records.

How about a comparison with the Republic in Britain?

Was Oliver Cromwell responsible for the dire reputation of British cuisine.

[Adam Balic]

How about a comparison with the Republic in Britain?

Was Oliver Cromwell responsible for the dire reputation of British cuisine.

No. That was Steve Plotnicki .

Food at that period did change hughely though, in response to the changes occuring in society. Many spicing of food was seen as 'Catholic', so at this point many of the recipes lost many of the medieval flavours. This had been occuring for some time though, in response to the reformation process, but became more entrenched after Cromwell. Robert May's great cooking book of this period is based on many medieval concepts of cooking and stands out as being anachronistic for the period, but he comes from a background of cooking for aristo. Catholic families.

[Gavin Jones]

cooking for aristo. Catholic families.

Offal with their heads.

[Tonyfinch]

Cromwell reacted against the gluttonous friars. Trouble is they're still around. They're called Scott and Sam and they live in Surrey

[macrosan]

Cromwell reacted against the gluttonous friars. Trouble is they're still around. They're called Scott and Sam and they live in Surrey

I think that's actually Kent (nr Surrey)

Edited January 20, 2003 by macrosan (log)

[Scottf]

It is but not for much longer

[peterpumkino]

Edit: Peter, you just couldn't let it lie...

Why should I? It's true! Besides I have a great sense of fun!

Re. Dim Sum, yes it's Cantonese (not easy to get in Bejing) and it's actually a late breakfast. It's fun going Dim Summing at a real Chinese place as all the Chinese start leaving at midday when the white people are all arriving! (also the selections change to suit 'us' so you must go early to get the Real dim sum - sort of like having to go to Italy to get Real Italian food, right Thom?).

[thom]

We've gone from Michelin to Chinese cuisine within a couple of pages; it's almost too tempting to swing this whole thread around to yet another reprise of the 'Real Italian' discussion.

Even if I can resist it, I bet Peter can't.

By the way, I have been to several "Real Italian" © restaurants in Italy (Rimini and Milan to be precise) that serve heavily sauced food, and one of them didn't even have veal on the menu.

Bite, bite, bite...

Cheers

Thom

© Peter Pumkino 2002 (or earlier if it means he thought of it first).

[peterpumkino]

Thom, you dissapoint me. As any good poseur knows Northern Italian Cuisine (whatever that is!) is supposed to be light and the heavily sauced pasta comes from the South (Milano and Rimini are in the North) but, as everywhere, there is crossover everywhere.

The copyright should go way, way back as it was impossible to get anything remotely like Real Italian in the good ol' days - in fact you can actually get something vaguely similar in London now if you're very, very lucky.

What about Real Chinese (or Real Dim-Sum), or Real Japanese or Real Egyptian or Real American ad nauseam? Best ask a native (asked any Real Italians lately? Don't take my word for it ask them - Italians born in England need not apply).

[SamanthaF]

Cromwell reacted against the gluttonous friars. Trouble is they're still around. They're called Scott and Sam and they live in Surrey

LOL

[thom]

I know I know Peter, it just cheapens my subtle attempts at sarcasm, irony or facetiousness to have to plaster them with smileys.

I have in fact eaten in Rimini and Milan. There were no heavily sauced dishes, and I did not even notice whether Veal was on the menu or not. The whole statement was , I admit, a heavy handed piss-take that fell flat on its face.

The disappointment of Peter Pumkino (surely a good title for a short story, or some humourous verse?) was to much to bear...

On the upside, Peter, you couldn't leave well alone, and have now said "heavily sauced pasta is NOT Real Italian" and "heavily sauced pasta comes from the South" (of Italy) in recent posts. Just when you had me wriggling in the crushing grip of reason you've lost me again. Explain please.

Cheers

Thom

[Bloated]

I ate at Hakkasan last night. I thought the cooking and presentation was about the same standard as other Michelin stars I have eaten at, although I cannot comment on whether other Chinese restaurants are equally or more deserving.

One thing there were no free appetisers/desserts so I don't think they were 'fishing' for the star...

[peterpumkino]

The disappointment of Peter Pumkino (surely a good title for a short story, or some humourous verse?) was to much to bear...

Actually there IS a story behind the name. It started when I lived in Jamaica (and it wasn't Pumkins I was accused of eating - geddit!!).

Cheers and tks for your email,

Peter

[thom]

Oh grief, I'm not sure I do "geddit".

Does that mean you ate "Peters"?

Also, who emailed you? Me? Did I?

I'm sure life never used to be this confusing...

Anyone want to swing this thread back around to Michelin again?

Bloated, I read your comment; from my own experiences over the last year I would not put Hakkasan anywhere near the level of food and service encountered at the similarly Michelin starred Hibiscus, Merchant House, Pied De Terre, Nobu Or Juniper.

Cheers

Thom

[cabrales]

I noted the follwoing from the press release, among other things:... I forget whether there was a two-or-three-line commentary for restaurants in the UK prior to 2003. If not, the commentary would be somewhat interesting.

Below are certain descriptions from the Michelin guide:

On Gordon Ramsay: "Elegant and sophisticated room. The eponymous chef creates *some of* Britain's finest, classically inspired cooking. Detailed and attentive service. Book one month in advance." The write-up could be more laudatory. For example, the annotation for Pierre Gagnaire (whose cuisine I dislike) is as follows: "The inventiveness is not in the sobrely contemporary decor, but in one's plate. A magic of savours, surprises for the taste buds, inspired genius...there's poetry coming from the kitchen!"

On Waterside Inn: "The Thames-side idyll still *delights*: opulent dining room, drinks in the summer houses, *exquisite French cuisine* and matchless service. Bedrooms are restful and classically chic."

On The Square: "Marble flooring and bold abstract canvasses add an air of modernity. Extensive menus *showcase* French influenced cooking of the *highest order*. Prompt and efficient service." This is a nice write-up.

On Fat Duck: "History and science combine in recipes of yesteryear and a painstaking, innovative alchemy of contrasting flavours. Modern art, stylish, relaxing milieu, confident service."

On LTC, which still has two stars on the Michelin website (?; Pied a Terre is still unupdated at one star): "Refined Gascon French cooking in elegant and sumptuous surroundings. Celebrated for it's Pig's trotter dish. Impressive wine list features regional French specialities."

On Le Gavroche: "Long standing basement restaurant with a clubby, formal atmosphere. Accomplished classical French cuisine, served by smartly attired and well-drilled staff."

On The Capital: "Elegant and intimate restaurant ideal for both social and business entertaining. Assured and detailed service. *Refined* French inspired cooking with a subtle modern twist."

On Putney Bridge: "Winner of architectural awards, this striking glass and steel structure enjoys a charming riverside location. Exacting service; accomplished and detailed modern cooking." (The detailed part is accurate with respect to Putney Bridge; the accomplished part as well, although I have not eaten there recently)

On Petrus: "Accomplished cooking and service in discreet, elegant surroundings. Wine list features an extensive collection of one of the world's most renowned clarets."

On Chez Bruce: "Essential to book at this ever-popular restaurant, overlooking the Common. Simple yet considered modern British cooking. Convivial and informal, with enthusiastic service."

[cappers]

waterside inn will lose a star. . . .

[cabrales]

I believe there is some risk of that in 2004/5, although that is based on only one meal since Alain took over. More visits might be unavailable prior to the 2004 for me.

[Basildog]

I'm sure its just an oversite by Cabrales, but she missed my review

So in the interests of completing her list, and with no thought of shameless self promotion....

"Informal bistro-style restaurant with a friendly welcoming atmosphere.Varied menu capitalises on finest, fresh,local ingrediants and bold characterful flavours."

[cabrales]

Basildog -- Congrats! The "finest" ingredients and "bold characterful flavours" parts must be particularly gratifying to you.

[Basildog]

Thanks Cabby..yes i'm a happy bunny

[Andy Lynes]

Did you get a rating?