VMatter Knives, Opinions?

[Lisa Shock]

I found this Indigogo project, VMatter Cutlery, for knives made of a new type of amorphous metal blade that is supposed to stay sharp for years. Just wondering what people here think about it. They are definitely not cheap, but, lots of knives are more expensive. I am wondering if this is significantly better than ceramic, which has a lot of similar properties: thin, sharp, stays sharp, smooth surface means less bacteria, etc.

[dcarch]

I absolutely hate tomato cutting demonstrations. A meaningless test of knife sharpness. That and paper slicing.

All knives can do those after they are first sharpened.

I am just curious, if they have found a metal with that incredible property, there is no need to raise a few hundred thousand dollars to make kitchen knives. They can immediately make billions of $ selling to the industry to make machine tools, and to the military to make better gun barrels.

Metallic glass?

Glass is a liquid. Very elastic? Glass is not elastic. Never need sharpening? A scientist will never say never.

Steel knife surfaces can harbor germs? That's a new one.

I am not saying that Vmatter is not what they claim it to be, but the "infomercial" is not convincing.

dcarch

Edited September 26, 2013 by dcarch (log)

[Norm Matthews]

Whenever my son is impressed with a product in an infomercial, I tell him to wait. If it is as good as they say it is, Walmart will have it in a few months. If it isn't commercially available soon, it wasn't good enough to make it off the TV ad and on to the general market.

Anyway how sharp does a knife have to be? My Henckels, Wusthofs and Shuns cut as well as I ever need them to cut and they do a better job than the 'inferior' Henckels they demonstrated. Gotta think it was a biased demo.

edit: BTW, the chart they have shows Steel knives @ 500 BC then nothing until VMatter in 2013. News Flash: There has been quite a lot of advancement in metallurgy since Christ was born.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Norm Matthews (log)

[David Hensley]

You can also add me to the "intrigued, but not yet convinced" list. I like the ideas presented, but will need much more info, before I pass any firm judgment.

[rotuts]

this was mentioned in the NYTimes Yest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/dining/uncommon-doughnuts-healthier-chicken-nuggets-and-more.html?_r=0

look down at the bottom:

"To Wield: A Kitchen Knife That Keeps Its Edge

A dream of many home cooks is a knife that requires no sharpening. This chef’s knife by VMatter comes close. It’s made from an alloy of titanium, zirconium and other metals that was developed 20 years ago at the California Institute of Technology with some funds from NASA, and is supposed to hold its keen edge for as long as 10 years. etc etc"

$$ 247 Plastic Handle

$$ 150 More for a wooden handle

even if its really Ironwood.

Edited September 26, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[dcarch]

I have actually visited a company that makes a strange metal, it is called "Memory metal".

That metal has a memory. You can twist it and bend it out of shape, then if you heat it up, it will return to it's old shape. In other words, if a car is made from this metal, you can crash it, then all you need to do is heat it up and it will go back to it's old shape.

Imagine a blade's edge is made with this metal.

They gave me some samples to play with. I have the samples in my shop some place.

dcarch

[Dakki]

We looked into this material some time back for a different application. The stuff has some really interesting properties w/r/t strength, toughness and corrosion resistance and I did wonder how it would work in a knife. Costs must have gone down, as it was prohibitive at that time.

There's some very obvious hype in the video/website that gives me some pause.

My take? We could skip the nonsense and get a job shop to make a few up.

[rotuts]

cheaper to just get one here:

https://www.vmatter.com/cutlery-information/

and pass it around.

I enjoy sharpening and taking care of my knife collection. cheaper and more effective than PsychoTherapy

Edited September 26, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[Lisa Shock]

Right now, in the original link, there's an early bird special 8" chef knife for $175.

[Norm Matthews]

I think my kitchen knife collection is complete. I don't see a need for any more... actually more than half of them are stored away. But if I were to get one made from this material I'd prefer one with more flat surface for cutting. Only about 1/3 is flat, the other 2/3 is curved. I don't think I'd use much of the blade: too much is for rocking the blade, too little for chopping, either that or I'd have to change the way I use this chef knife to utilize the design fully.

[gdenby]

Both the infomercial and the web site failed to answer a number of questions that are crucial to me when considering a knife. First, and formost, what is the angle of the edge bevel? Then, is there distal taper? Where is the balance point? Is the blade stiff or springy? Etc.

(My opinion: an edge bevel needs to be 15 degrees or less for the knife to be considered sharp.)

They mention Vickers Hardness, but don't specify what their blades number is. And the comparison is made to "steel." Which steel? There are dozen out there used for cutlery. Finer kitchen knives in the same price range can run between 700 - 800. How does the amorphous material compare to powder steel blades w. embedded carbides?

Seems that the main selling point is "carefree." I'd be far more convinced if someone w. lots of experience cutting foods did a side by side comparison, and showed that it made cleaner cuts w. less force that other fine knives.

And, altho' more carefree, is it more economical than buying 10 Forschner Fibrox and having them sharpened 1 a year for 10 years?

[dcarch]

---------------------- But if I were to get one made from this material I'd prefer one with more flat surface for cutting. Only about 1/3 is flat, the other 2/3 is curved. I don't think I'd use much of the blade: too much is for rocking the blade, too little for chopping, either that or I'd have to change the way I use this chef knife to utilize the design fully.

The curved edge is a key "trick" of this "forever" knife.

Unless you cut into a bone, or a hard cutting board, there are very few food that can actually dull a knife. Most good steel can last almost forever if you are careful with good slicing action and not chopping action. That is the reason for "forever" sharp serrated knives, a good part of the edge never touches anything other than food.

By curving the edge drastically, a good part of the Vmatter knife never touches the cutting board, just slicing food.

dcarch

[rotuts]

By curving the edge drastically, a good part of the Vmatter knife never touches the cutting board, just slicing food.

interesting point. but if the knife does not touch the cutting board, then it must not have cut completely through the food?

[dcarch]

By curving the edge drastically, a good part of the Vmatter knife never touches the cutting board, just slicing food.

interesting point. but if the knife does not touch the cutting board, then it must not have cut completely through the food?

If you go to youtube, and search sushi cutting knife skills, and watch very closely, you may be able to see that the way they cut, the edge does not touch the board.

dcarch

[rotuts]

Interesting vid. I think it touches most of the board, not quite at the tip. but it touches it very very gently, not Chop Chop Chop.

a delicate hand that guy has.

[dcarch]

Interesting vid. I think it touches most of the board, not quite at the tip. but it touches it very very gently, not Chop Chop Chop.

a delicate hand that guy has.

Theoretically, the point of contact between a curve and a flat surface is infinitely small. In reality obviously not.

The slicing action is what sushi chefs practice to keep their knives always truly razor sharp. As I said, there are many videos you can find on youtube.

dcarch

[rotuts]

Ok Ok OK

its a bit of both: Mostly the SChef get to about 1/2 Angstroms of the board, above ( sometimes )

and touching the board by that much ( sometimes ).

And sometimes, with great skill he is at least 2 Angstorms above the board and rips ( ) the tip bit

of fish to finish the "cut"

[dcarch]

To answer OP's questions:

I think the Vmatter knife can be a very good knife, not as good as they claim. I will not be surprised they use some technologies as in the manufacturing of jet engine turbine blades, which can take incredible stress without failing. Titanium is extremely difficult to machine. The application of vacuum induction casting, single crystal structure and one directional cooling can give exotic alloys great deal more durability.

I think this will be a better knife than ceramic knives that cracking and chipping are less of concern, however the Vmatter may be the same as ceramic knives that you will not be able to sharpen it at home.

I am not concerned about the fact that normal stainless steel and high carbon steel can harbor germs. Many knives come with a mirror polish, and most germs are bigger than the possible holes on the steel. besides, your cutting board is about 10,000 times germier.

dcarch

Edited September 27, 2013 by dcarch (log)

[rotuts]

so you think this might be brittle?

a while back i found a YouTube vid made in Japan of some Sushi chef sharpening a ceramic blade on several very fine wet-dry sandpaper. he got up to 600 grit.

he than used that knife to slice of all things, sushi a long with a traditional high end sushi knife. the dialog was in Japanese.

not something Id like to try, nor many other people.

[sigma]

Ok Ok OK

its a bit of both: Mostly the SChef get to about 1/2 Angstroms of the board, above ( sometimes )

and touching the board by that much ( sometimes ).

And sometimes, with great skill he is at least 2 Angstorms above the board and rips ( ) the tip bit

of fish to finish the "cut"

Sorry, but no. It isn't a matter of whether it's really close to touching or not, it is a matter of technique, and the technique with a yanagiba necessitates touching the board in a certain way with each cut. Ignorance and knowledge aren't the same thing, much as some people might like them to be, and equating them is one of the things that brings down the level of this board.

But if you are not convinced, think about it this way. If the knife never touches the board, and the fish is soft and non-acidic, then when do sushi chefs sharpen their knives every night?

But if it makes you feel better to know than not to, just watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKnhOGc68YY&list=PL8FA659765DC4698E

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCz2RkmtWYM&list=PL8FA659765DC4698E

[dcarch]

Thank you very much for finding the videos, especially the second one.

A picture is worth 1,000 words, a video? 10,000 words?

It shows in close up detail, exactly what I have said and been trying to say, "By curving the edge drastically, a good part of the Vmatter knife never touches the cutting board, just slicing food."

Also, in the video, the English subtitle says” ------ the tip of the knife is used to finish the cut-----”

The curved part of the blade's edge does almost all the slicing, and the main edge does not touch the board.

Thank you again.

And BTW, I am almost finished in making the same knife he is using, with a 13" blade, Tough working with D-2 steel, hardened and cryo tempered.

dcarch

Edited September 27, 2013 by dcarch (log)

[dcarch]

so you think this might be brittle?

a while back i found a YouTube vid made in Japan of some Sushi chef sharpening a ceramic blade on several very fine wet-dry sandpaper. he got up to 600 grit.

he than used that knife to slice of all things, sushi a long with a traditional high end sushi knife. the dialog was in Japanese.

not something Id like to try, nor many other people.

Actually, it is very difficult to sharpen ceramic knife using silicone carbide (Carborundum) sand paper. However, I have seen diamond sandpaper. Not cheap.

I do sharpen my ceramic knife on diamond stones, but the edge, under microscope, look very saw-tooth like.

dcarch

[rotuts]

I wish id kept that vid. of course the book mentioned in the knife thread suggests that ceramic knives do not have an acceptable

bevel as currently produced. I have little to no interest in trying them. How many knives does one want need desire ? lots!

i have a lot of Granton's from GB. Im very happy with them. its a real shame they are not more "around" esp. the boning and slicing knives.

EP suggests that ceramic knives can be done on the EP with diamond blanks. I cant say as I dont have any.

and they **** break ***** as did my Mighty Fine ceramic peeler. after "Pulling a Cork" ref: True Grit, stuff finds its Own Place.

Ceramic on the Floor: not so good.

[Justin0505]

I'm always skeptical when I hear a bunch of silly claims like "never needs sharpening" (anything bar wolverines claws will eventually dull), or made-up science sounding terms like "nano sharp".

All things seem to point to this wonder metal being the same or very similar to LM1, which is a bit of a joke when compared to even cheap cutlery steels: google Cliff Stamp's review of LM1.

The real revolution here is that they can mass-produce metal in any shape without having to employ skilled bladesmiths, but in this case the design looks pretty uninspired as well.

These are the same misleading and cheap marketing tricks used to sell crap knives on late-night infomercials, but these knives are 100x more expensive and likely not any better.

It's also silly to compare this to ceramic knives as it's actually pretty soft, softer even than cutlery steel;. Nowhere near the hardness of ceramic.

But I guess that there are similarities in that they are both gimmicks.

Lastly, just from the sake of the debate on sharpening ceramic blades, it doesn't seem all that difficult or expensive to create something at least as good as factory with just wet/dry automotive sandpaper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub76qYaaV2Q

[MikeMac]

OK lots of theory which is appreciated but has anyone purchased a knife and actually used it? What do they have to say?