Tired of the Alice Waters Backlash - Are You?

[skipper10]

"I'm not a chef."

- Alice Waters & Chez Panisse, authorized biography, page 320

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Could it be that this quote is taken out of context? If I recall correctly, Chez Panisse staff was cooking dinner in Italy under difficult circumstances; they were not getting fresh fish and other supplies they needed, stock pot was too small and Alice was not able to invite friends she wanted to be there because the woman who was in charge of the event would not talk to Alice.... As I understood it when I read it, AW made that statement because she wanted everyone to know that Chez Panisse chefs were the best.

Earlier in the book there is a statement by Alice saying that she "never wanted to be a chef, but had to be one" after some chef quit. If I recall correctly, according to her authorized biography not only Alice cooked in the Chez Panisse kitchen, but no menu was made and no food/dish was served without her approval.

[Fat Guy]

"I'm not a chef."

- Alice Waters & Chez Panisse, authorized biography, page 320

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Could it be that this quote is taken out of context?

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It couldn't be. She's not a chef. She doesn't consider herself a chef. She's a restaurateur. She knows it and has no hesitation saying it. She's commonly referred to as a chef, but that's not accurate.

This review of Waters's biography does a good job with the chef language:

Alice Waters is counted among the best chefs in the world, and yet she is not a chef at all.

.....

when dinner service began each night she wanted to be in the front of the house, not the kitchen.

.....

Thus did Chez Panisse, despite persistent financial mismanagement (Waters wasn't a businesswoman, either), become something of a Renaissance workshop, with Waters as creative director and a procession of (mostly male) chefs — many of whom would later take this "New American Cuisine" to their own restaurants — behind the stove.

[docsconz]

My understanding agrees with Stevens. Waters was never the chef at Chez Panisse, but that doesn't meant that she lacked significant creative or philosophical input. She just didn't run the kitchen.

[skipper10]

"I'm not a chef."

- Alice Waters & Chez Panisse, authorized biography, page 320

←

Could it be that this quote is taken out of context?

←

It couldn't be. She's not a chef. She doesn't consider herself a chef. She's a restaurateur. She knows it and has no hesitation saying it. She's commonly referred to as a chef, but that's not accurate.

This review of Waters's biography does a good job with the chef language:

Alice Waters is counted among the best chefs in the world, and yet she is not a chef at all.

.....

when dinner service began each night she wanted to be in the front of the house, not the kitchen.

.....

Thus did Chez Panisse, despite persistent financial mismanagement (Waters wasn't a businesswoman, either), become something of a Renaissance workshop, with Waters as creative director and a procession of (mostly male) chefs — many of whom would later take this "New American Cuisine" to their own restaurants — behind the stove.

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from "Alice Waters and Chez Panisse" by Thomas McNamee

page 68

As chef, Alice delved deep into the provinces of France for recipes hardly ever seen on this side of Atlantic: cou de canard, duck neck stuffed with duck meat and foie gras; jambon en saupiquet, a very old recipe, ham in a vinegar-piqued cream sauce; cassoulet, the laborious white bean casserole with duck or goose confit; aillade de veau, veal stewed with tomatoes and lots of garlic, the sauce thickened with bread crumbs; ris de veau a la lyonnaise, scallops or sweetbreads with a sauce of chopped hard-boiled eggs, mustard, capers, cornichons, and chives; choucroute garnie, the steaming heap of juniper-redolent sauerkraut piled with pork loin, ham, bacon, preserved pork belly, and an omnimum-gatherum of sausages; and, with a frequency attesting to its popularity with the Chez Panisse crowd, Victoria's archetypal bistro dish lapin a la moutarde.

[weinoo]

Anyway... at least Bourdain and DiSpirto really were the people in charge of running a kitchen and devising all the recipes, etc.  Not that I, personally, would call either one of them "chef" in any sense beyond the one in which one might still call Tom Landry "coach."

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Which everyone who has ever played for him probably does.

[weinoo]

from "Alice Waters and Chez Panisse" by Thomas  McNamee

page 68

As chef, Alice delved deep into the provinces of France for recipes hardly ever seen on this side of Atlantic:  cou de canard, duck neck stuffed with duck meat and foie gras; jambon en saupiquet, a very old recipe, ham in a vinegar-piqued cream sauce; cassoulet, the laborious white bean casserole with duck or goose confit; aillade de veau, veal stewed with tomatoes and lots of garlic, the sauce thickened with bread crumbs; ris de veau a la lyonnaise, scallops or sweetbreads with a sauce of chopped hard-boiled eggs, mustard, capers, cornichons, and chives;  choucroute garnie, the steaming heap of juniper-redolent sauerkraut piled with pork loin, ham, bacon, preserved pork belly,  and an omnimum-gatherum of sausages; and, with a frequency attesting to its popularity with the Chez Panisse crowd, Victoria's archetypal bistro dish lapin a la moutarde.

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Thank you.

[Fat Guy]

Okay so on the one hand we have Alice Waters quoted saying she's not a chef, and on the other hand we have the author referring to her as a chef. I think it's pretty easy to decide which to believe. But the next person to see Alice Waters, just ask her: are you a chef, or a restaurateur who oversees chefs? She'll say she's not a chef, because she isn't, knows she isn't and says she isn't, and then we can declare an end to this tangent.

[jesteinf]

I wouldn't consider her a chef either, but on the About Alice Waters page on the Chez Panisse website she is listed as "Executive Chef and Owner". She also won the Beard award for Best Chef in 1992.

Also, hasn't Bourdain described himself as a cook and not a chef?

[weinoo]

I wouldn't consider her a chef either, but on the About Alice Waters page on the Chez Panisse website she is listed as "Executive Chef and Owner".  She also won the Beard award for Best Chef in 1992.

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That's interesting, isn't it, that she's listed on THE RESTAURANT'S WEBSITE, as the executive CHEF, even though she's not in the kitchen a whole heckuva lot. Just like a lot of other executive chefs who don't exactly get their whites dirty.

And she won the Beard award for Best Chef - that is one tainted award, in my opinion.

On the back flap of Bourdain's cookbook..."executive chef." So whatever he calls himself, and whatever Alice calls herself, at some point they were both executive chefs.

[Fat Guy]

Do you accept the definition offered above: chef = the person running a restaurant's kitchen? Or do you think chef means something else? Because "the person running a restaurant's kitchen" is just about the most permissive definition of chef that can be used before the term loses all meaning. It includes the guy running the kitchen at Denny's. It still doesn't include Alice Waters, though. The only way Alice Waters gets defined as a chef is if we say "you're a chef if people call you a chef, whether they're mistaken or not, and it also doesn't matter what you call yourself -- it only matters what other people call you." She's a chef if Danny Meyer is a chef, Drew Nieporent is a chef or Sirio Maccione is a chef. But what they all are, actually, is restaurateurs.

[weinoo]

Do you accept the definition offered above: chef = the person running a restaurant's kitchen? Or do you think chef means something else? Because "the person running a restaurant's kitchen" is just about the most permissive definition of chef that can be used before the term loses all meaning. It includes the guy running the kitchen at Denny's. It still doesn't include Alice Waters, though. The only way Alice Waters gets defined as a chef is if we say "you're a chef if people call you a chef, whether they're mistaken or not, and it also doesn't matter what you call yourself -- it only matters what other people call you." She's a chef if Danny Meyer is a chef, Drew Nieporent is a chef or Sirio Maccione is a chef. But what they all are, actually, is restaurateurs.

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Actually, I think Chef means the person running a kitchen or, as in Alice's and Tony's cases, persons who once ran their kitchens. They are afforded the "luxury" of being called chef because of the respect for the positions they previously held - as are coaches, in Sam's example.

And we called the teachers "chef" in cooking school, even though they weren't running a restaurant's kitchen.

[Fat Guy]

Tell me the date range when Alice Waters, as opposed to a hired chef, ran the kitchen at Chez Panisse, and I will concede the argument.

[skipper10]

I wouldn't consider her a chef either, but on the About Alice Waters page on the Chez Panisse website she is listed as "Executive Chef and Owner".  She also won the Beard award for Best Chef in 1992.

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That's interesting, isn't it, that she's listed on THE RESTAURANT'S WEBSITE, as the executive CHEF, even though she's not in the kitchen a whole heckuva lot. Just like a lot of other executive chefs who don't exactly get their whites dirty.

And she won the Beard award for Best Chef - that is one tainted award, in my opinion.

On the back flap of Bourdain's cookbook..."executive chef." So whatever he calls himself, and whatever Alice calls herself, at some point they were both executive chefs.

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Could somebody please explain to me why Alice should not be called Chef, and what difference does it make? I did not go through the entire Thomas McNamee book, but every page I randomly opened had a reference to her cooking or standards she set for Chez Panisse. By the way, Aliceo says "It's hard to be successful and not have some people be upset with you."

p 43

Alice, superb cook though she had become, could not picture herself behind the stoves. She wanted to be in the dining room--with people, personifying the open-hearted hospitality that she saw as fundamental to the restaurant's identity. She also wanted to determine menus. She would certainly be in the kitchen as well. She alone would dictate how every dish was to be prepared, down to the fines touch of tecnique: how brown a particular saute should be, how many shallots to sweeten a sauce, how finely chopped. She knew exactly how she wanted everything to taste, to look, to smell, to feel.

P 95

In Jeremiah's absence Alice took over as a chef.

P 134

In January 1977, Alice Waters for the first time assumed the title of chef of Chez Panisse....her sous chef Jean-Pierre Moulle...

P 138

Starting in January 1978, therefore, Jean-Pierre would function as a chef, while Alice, though overseeing the front of the house, retained the title...

..."History," Charles Shere observes, "is littered with the bodies of men who feel they should have gotten more of the credit than Alice."

P 138 -139

"I thought about this issue a lot," says Greil Marcus......."Chez Panisse is Alice's idea. It's Alice's values. It's Alice's standards.......if she were hit by a bus, the restaurant would close. I don't think it would sustain itself. When Alice is in Berkeley, she is at the restaurant all the time, and there is never anything that is right. She is always finding fault, whether it's with service, or food preparation, or ingredients, or the way something is cooked. That's because she has a clear idea about every aspect of what restaurant is. And nobody else does. Nobody else d has the complexity of vision that she does."

[Fat Guy]

I think whatever anonymous person wrote the Wikipedia entry got it exactly right: "Over the years, Waters' role at Chez Panisse has been that of proprietor, iron-willed visionary, and taster-in-chief, rather than chef or businesswoman." Also, when Alice Waters said, "I'm not a chef," she got it right.

When Tower left, did she really take over as chef? In other words, did she expedite in the kitchen for a couple of days while they found a new chef, or did she take over for real?

[weinoo]

I think whatever anonymous person wrote the Wikipedia entry got it exactly right: "Over the years, Waters' role at Chez Panisse has been that of proprietor, iron-willed visionary, and taster-in-chief, rather than chef or businesswoman." Also, when Alice Waters said, "I'm not a chef," she got it right.

When Tower left, did she really take over as chef? In other words, did she expedite in the kitchen for a couple of days while they found a new chef, or did she take over for real?

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Of course, because the facts that are listed in the immediately preceding post seem to be unable to be digested properly.

[daisy17]

Actually, I think Chef means the person running a kitchen or, as in Alice's and Tony's cases, persons who once ran their kitchens.  They are afforded the "luxury" of being called chef because of the respect for the positions they previously held - as are coaches, in Sam's example. 

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Sounds correct to me.

[weinoo]

Interesting, from the International Culinary Center's website, a bio of Jacques Pepin:

Chef Jacques's demonstrations are events unto themselves. With his combination of personal warmth, humor, and extraordinary experience and knowledge, Chef Jacques has been a powerful presenter and priceless resource at The FCI since 1988.

Now, I ask, do the students call Mr. Pepin chef? Is that because he's running a restaurant's kitchen? Or because of the respect he's earned?

[slkinsey]

Could somebody please explain to me why Alice should not be called Chef, and what difference does it make?  I did not go through the entire Thomas McNamee book, but every page I randomly opened had a reference to her cooking or standards she set for Chez Panisse.

For the same reason that you could read a book about Danny Meyer and see tons of references to the ways his ideas about food have informed his restaurants.

This fork of the discussion is beginning to become a little nonsensical, with Alice Waters' proponents reacting to everything other than unferrered admiration as an attack that must be defended against. The question remains: When was Waters running that kitchen?

Let's make a timeline of Chez Panisse chefs. It is actually quite difficult to figure out who the chefs at Chez Panisse have been. Even the Chez Panisse web site doesn't let you know that it is David Tanis. Here is what I have been able to find out so far:

Paul Aratow 1971 - 1972

Jeremiah Tower 1972 - 1978

Mark Miller 1978 - 1979

??? 1979 - 1982

Paul Bertolli 1982-1992

Jean-Pierre Moulle ??? - 2000

David Tanis/Christopher Lee 2000 - 2004

David Tanis 2004 - Current

Mitch, before you jump in here, I should point out that the gap between 1979 and 1982 doesn't necessarily mean that Alice was running the kitchen at that time. What it means right now is that I wasn't able to figure out who the chef was in a 10 minute search of the internet.

Whether or not the restaurant web site calls Alice the "executive chef" or not is really moot. She's the owner. And I don't think anyone is denying that she has been a guiding force behind that restaurant throughout its history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that she was ever running the kitchen or having a primary responsibilty for designing the menus, etc. Indeed, there seems to be someone right now who has that job, and it ain't Alice.

Again, the word "chef" at this point has become diluted to the point where people want to call me a "great chef" despite the fact that I am a home and semi-professional (as in, the occasional small-scale catering gig) cook and have never run a professional kitchen. This is similar to the way that people seem to want to (incorrectly) call anyone who plays an instrument "maestro." If we would like to use "chef" to mean "the person who runs or has run a professional kitchen where they had a primary responsibility of devising the menu and seeing that the kitchen executes that menu to spec" then it is not clear that Alice Waters has ever been a chef. If you want it to mean something else, then yea... she's probably a chef. So am I.

Edited May 21, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[skipper10]

I think whatever anonymous person wrote the Wikipedia entry got it exactly right: "Over the years, Waters' role at Chez Panisse has been that of proprietor, iron-willed visionary, and taster-in-chief, rather than chef or businesswoman." Also, when Alice Waters said, "I'm not a chef," she got it right.

When Tower left, did she really take over as chef? In other words, did she expedite in the kitchen for a couple of days while they found a new chef, or did she take over for real?

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You brought up the book and I thought you've read it. According to the book over the years Alice did her share of cooking, she took over every time her chefs were away, including Jeremiah, who, as you know, took extended trips to Europe to see Olney, to the Carribbean, and so on.

I don't know how much time Alice spent in the kitchen, but there are numerous mentions of her exhaustion, including temporary loosing eyesight.

she seems to have worked very hard.

p95

Anne Isaak describes how she met Alice :.."there was nobody in the restaurant....There was this woman at a large sink, cleaning trout. Alice.

P 137

Alice, for whom extended stays in the kitchen were exhausting, needed a vacation...

I don't have time to go through the book now, but, as I recall, the book ends with Alice cutting down her travel and other activities and focusing on Chez Panisse.

[Fat Guy]

Chef-instructor (or culinary-program dean) at a culinary school is certainly a category of chef. Every chef-instructor I've ever met, however, has been an experienced restaurant (or institutional) chef. Is Alice Waters? Again, I saw reference to how she "took over as chef" but have no idea what that means. Again, if it means she went into the kitchen -- even if it was only for a year -- and really ran things then, yes, I agree she earned the right to be called chef forever, even though she says "I'm not a chef." If it just means she made more trips into the kitchen to check up on the expediter but continued to play her normal FOH role while shopping around for a new chef, then no, she's not a chef, she's a restaurateur like Danny, Drew and Sirio.

[slkinsey]

Interesting, from the International Culinary Center's website, a bio of Jacques Pepin:

Chef Jacques's demonstrations are events unto themselves. With his combination of personal warmth, humor, and extraordinary experience and knowledge, Chef Jacques has been a powerful presenter and priceless resource at The FCI since 1988.

Now, I ask, do the students call Mr. Pepin chef? Is that because he's running a restaurant's kitchen? Or because of the respect he's earned?

Well, there are two things here.

First is the fact that Jacques Pepin has managed a professional kitchen. He was also director of research and new development for the Howard Johnson for ten years.

Second is that "chef" means "boss" and this is the way the students are taught to address their instructors. It would be like taking a class at a school on military tactics and being taught to address your instructor as "sir" despite the fact that he did not hold a military rank in the armed services. I would assume that, were you or I to teach a cooking class at the FCI, the students would address us as "chef" as well -- despite the fact that clearly neither one of us is a chef.

According to the book over the years Alice did her share of cooking, she took over every time her chefs were away, including Jeremiah, who, as you know,  took extended trips to Europe to see Olney, to the Carribbean, and so on.

Pitching in in the kitchen while the chef is out of town doesn't make you a chef yourself.

Edited May 21, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[Fat Guy]

You brought up the book and I thought you've read it. 

I skimmed a review copy when it came out and to me the narrative indicated that she's not a chef. That's why when somebody called her a chef I said no, she isn't. So far I haven't heard anything to indicate she ever was. That she has helped out in the kitchen isn't particularly relevant. If she was really running the kitchen from, say, 1979 to 1982 (one of the blanks on Sam's list) then sure, she's a chef, I'll say she's a chef, no problem. Is that the case?

[skipper10]

Could somebody please explain to me why Alice should not be called Chef, and what difference does it make?  I did not go through the entire Thomas McNamee book, but every page I randomly opened had a reference to her cooking or standards she set for Chez Panisse.

For the same reason that you could read a book about Danny Meyer and see tons of references to the ways his ideas about food have informed his restaurants.

This fork of the discussion is beginning to become a little nonsensical, with Alice Waters' proponents reacting to everything other than unferrered admiration as an attack that must be defended against. The question remains: When was Waters running that kitchen?

Let's make a timeline of Chez Panisse chefs. It is actually quite difficult to figure out who the chefs at Chez Panisse have been. Even the Chez Panisse web site doesn't let you know that it is David Tanis. Here is what I have been able to find out so far:

Paul Aratow 1971 - 1972

Jeremiah Tower 1972 - 1978

Mark Miller 1978 - 1979

??? 1979 - 1982

Paul Bertolli 1982-1992

Jean-Pierre Moulle - 2000

David Tanis/Christopher Lee 2000 - 2004

David Tanis 2004 - Current

Mitch, before you jump in here, I should point out that the gap between 1979 and 1982 doesn't necessarily mean that Alice was running the kitchen at that time. What it means right now is that I wasn't able to figure out who the chef was in a 10 minute search of the internet.

Whether or not the restaurant web site calls Alice the "executive chef" or not is really moot. She's the owner. And I don't think anyone is denying that she has been a guiding force behind that restaurant throughout its history. But that doesn't necessarily mean that she was ever running the kitchen or having a primary responsibilty for designing the menus, etc. Indeed, there seems to be someone right now who has that job, and it ain't Alice.

Again, the word "chef" at this point has become diluted to the point where people want to call me a "great chef" despite the fact that I am a home and semi-professional (as in, the occasional small-scale catering gig) cook and have never run a professional kitchen. This is similar to the way that people seem to want to (incorrectly) call anyone who plays an instrument "maestro." If we would like to use "chef" to mean "the person who runs or has run a professional kitchen where they had a primary responsibility of devising the menu and seeing that the kitchen executes that menu to spec" then it is not clear that Alice Waters has ever been a chef. If you want it to mean something else, then yea... she's probably a chef. So am I.

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I've got to go, but, if this thread is still here later on, I will return. According to the McNamee book:

Page 43

"...As construction progressed the reality of the unforgiving hours of drudgery that are sine qua non of chef began to sink in. When he learned what his salary would be, his mind was made up. Cheffing at Chez Panisse was not going to be Paul Aratow's career."

I would also like to clarify that I am not Alice Waters aficionado, I am actually quite neutral towards her. I am not expert on her life or activities, I've read a number of articles and books that mention her and read her biography.

[slkinsey]

It appears, from skimming the book, that Jean-Pierre Moulle often served as the fill-in chef throughout the history of Chez Panisse. One of the things he says in the book about his on-again/off-again relationship with Waters is that "it helps that she's here not very often."

[slkinsey]

I've got to go, but, if this thread is still here later on, I will return.  According to the  McNamee book:

Page 43

"...As construction progressed the reality of the unforgiving hours of drudgery that are sine qua non of chef began to sink in.  When he learned what his salary would be, his mind was made up.  Cheffing at Chez Panisse was not going to be Paul Aratow's career."

I'm guessing that would be why he ran the BOH for such a short period of time before Tower was hired as the chef.

You also fail to mention that the very next sentence reads: "Alice, superb cook though she had become, could not imagine herself behind the stoves."

Edited May 21, 2009 by slkinsey (log)