Bread That Sometimes Doesn't Rise

[beauregard]

Several times I've had dough fail to rise, or rise only minimally, and it's just dawned on me that this only started happening when the weather got cold.

For first rising I place the dough in a glass bowl on a marble-topped baker's table, and I always prepare the dough in the evening for overnight rising. Could it be that the cold marble in the cold winter air (my kitchen's poorly heated) is interfering with rising?

Is there an optimum temperature for rising? One baker told me "heat is the enemy of yeast," but a chef friend said "put it in an oven with a pilot light, it'll like the heat."

~ beau

[Chris Hennes]

The simple answer is that normal baker's yeast multiplies the fastest at around 100°F: lower or higher and it slows down. Too high and you kill it (like when you bake it), too low and it just goes dormant (with a little die-off). Whether "multiplies the fastest" is the same as "optimal" is up for debate: many bread recipes call for "retarding" the dough; that is, deliberately cooling it down to make it rise slower, giving the various enzymes time to work their magic and improve the flavor of the bread.

There are a lot of factors at work here: how much yeast are you using, what kind of yeast is it, are you sure it's still good, etc. For reference, I frequently rise dough overnight using standard recipes by putting the dough in the refrigerator at 40°F: I really hope your kitchen is not quite that cold! But since your recipe is already designed for an overnight rise, I'm guessing it uses less yeast that those I use. When your room temp is cold, you might consider just bumping up the quantity of yeast that you start with. I'd also double-check to make sure your yeast is still alive and kicking.

[djyee100]

I've been told that for a slow overnight rise on the counter, the room temp shd ideally be between 62-68F.

I'll use a standard amt of yeast for an overnight rise in the fridge. If I leave the dough out on the counter, I'll significantly reduce the amt of yeast. The room temp is usually 62-65F.

If you're reducing the amt of yeast and letting the dough sit overnight at a very cool temp, at least the dough is hydrating and releasing simple sugars. Sometimes if you let the dough return to warm room temp, and give it time to get into gear again, the dough will rise pretty quickly (finally) as the yeasties grow and eat those sugars.

Another possibility--what temp is the water with which you are mixing the dough? could that be cooling the dough down too much and inhibiting the yeast?

Edited February 25, 2009 by djyee100 (log)

[jackal10]

Is your yeast stale? Dried yeast has a comparatively short shelf life, and even less (maybe a week or so) once opened or unsealed

Edited February 25, 2009 by jackal10 (log)

[Old Timer]

Is your yeast stale?  Dried yeast has a comparatively short shelf life, and even less (maybe a week or so) once opened or unsealed

←

This was my immediate thought as well.

For all the effort put into the bread baking process, I would think proofing the yeast would be mandatory.

[dougal]

Could it be that the cold marble in the cold winter air (my kitchen's poorly heated) is interfering with rising?

Oh yes, indeed!

Yeast, broadly speaking, likes the same sort of temperatures we do.

Its really happy at blood heat.

50C, 125F, (round numbers) kills it. Don't go there!

Yeast doesn't like cold particularly, but it takes a lot of cold to actually kill it.

What I see happening with my yeast in the cold, is that at warm-fridge temperature, (like 6C, 44F) the yeast slows right down. This can be great for flavour. It allows lots of 'rise' time for other microbiology to do stuff. And that's where the flavour comes from. But the yeast is s-l-o-w, taking at least overnight to rise like it would do in an hour at 25/30C.

At 6C or so, (top shelf in the fridge), my yeast has slowed down at least 10x.

But take it just a little bit colder, like down to 2C, 35F, and that small change seems to slow the yeast right down, maybe by another 10x, so that its then about 100x slower than in a nice warm bakery room. ("Nothing's happening!")

I don't know exactly how cold Beauregard's marble slab might get in winter, and I'm certain he's going to be using different yeast to me, but I think it does sound like he's 'hitting the wall' on temperature, and just getting a little too cold for his yeast to do much of anything.

Find it somewhere just very slightly warmer!

Be nice to it!

A thermometer that records maximum and minimum temperatures would be helpful here.

Such thermometers are sold really cheaply in gardening shops.

And most digital room thermometers have a max/min facility.

Is there an optimum temperature for rising?

Optimum. Hmmm.

Optimum for maximising production quantity in your facility (ie maximum rise speed) is usually going to be a little above room temperature, like 90/100F (around 35C).

But for optimum taste, slower is better. Overnight is fine for the bread if its fine for you. I'd suggest you aim for something like 50/55F, (10/12C) and adjust to suit your yeast, your schedule and your targets for taste and crust colour (long cool fermentation gives a more ruddy colour to the crust).

Edited February 25, 2009 by dougal (log)

[tino27]

Two words: Heating Pad

During the winter I use a standard heating pad for both my pre-ferments (poolish) and the final dough. Even the ones that turn off after two hours (for my poolish) are generally enough to get the yeasties going. You'll just want to use a container that is wide at the bottom instead of narrow (maximize the surface contact) for bulk fermentation. I use these containers I bought at Sam's Club and they seem to do the trick nicely. Plus they are graduated so you can see how much your dough has risen.

You could also build yourself an inexpensive proofing box so that you could control the temperature and humidity a little more accurately, but that is probably more effort than you will need to correct this situation.

[HungryC]

Is it NOT rising at all, or just rising slowly? A long, slow, cold rise is great, as long as you have time to accomodate it. When I'm unhappy with the dough's progress at room temp, I usually put it into a cold oven with the oven light turned on. In my oven, this results in a consistent, roughly 75-80 degrees when the ambient kitchen air temp is 65 degrees.

On the other hand, if it is NOT rising at all (even at refrigerator temps, yeasted dough will eventually rise), you need to 1)check out the age/freshness of your yeast and 2)be sure you're not inadvertently killing it by adding it directly with the salt, or perhaps using water/liquid that's too hot? It is hard to kill off ALL of the yeast in a teaspoon, but perhaps it's a combo of old yeast and other factors that might kill it off?

[beauregard]

Thanks everyone for all your very helpful comments!

I think stale yeast may very well be the problem. I've only been baking for a year and hadn't yet heard about how fast yeast goes bad. So from now on I'll proof my yeast . . .

. . . however, I don't allow sugar in my kitchen; can I just as well proof yeast with a tablespoon of flour?

And since I never use a full packet of yeast (haven't found it necessary and I don't like yeasty-tasting bread), can I wrap the unused yeast up tightly in its package and put it in the fridge? How long will it last?

I'm using 100° water.

>> a container that is wide at the bottom instead of narrow (maximize the surface contact) for bulk fermentation <<

Such an interesting idea, tino27, I'm going to try it.

~ beau

[tino27]

Thanks everyone for all your very helpful comments!

I think stale yeast may very well be the problem. I've only been baking for a year and hadn't yet heard about how fast yeast goes bad. So from now on I'll proof my yeast . . .

. . . however, I don't allow sugar in my kitchen; can I just as well proof yeast with a tablespoon of flour?

And since I never use a full packet of yeast (haven't found it necessary and I don't like yeasty-tasting bread), can I wrap the unused yeast up tightly in its package and put it in the fridge? How long will it last?

I'm using 100° water.

>> a container that is wide at the bottom instead of narrow (maximize the surface contact) for bulk fermentation <<

Such an interesting idea, tino27, I'm going to try it.

~ beau

←

You never actually specified what *kind* of yeast you are using. I personally buy instant yeast (different from Active Dry) that come in 1 lb hermetically sealed foil pouches from a place like Sam's Club. They are incredibly inexpensive and will last in the fridge or freezer for well after the "expiration date" that they print on the package (I've had some go for up to 6 months after the expiration date). Fresh yeast is a much more perishable product and must be used up fairly quickly, even if wrapped well and refrigerated. I usually won't bother with cake yeast if it's going to be around for more than 2 weeks from the time I buy it.

You can proof your yeast with a bit of starch, either potato starch or flour. Water temperature is fine, although you ideally want to proof the yeast at 110-115° F.

If you do decide to switch from one form of yeast to another, it is not a 1:1 substitution. PM me or post your request on this thread about what type you are going from and to and someone can tell you how to convert.

Edited February 25, 2009 by tino27 (log)

[beauregard]

I've just re-read HungryC's comments, which include

>> be sure you're not inadvertently killing it [the yeast] by adding it directly with the salt <<

I'm not sure I understand this. Many bread recipes start with "In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt [then add water]" But is that a bad baking practice?

In my brief year of baking, I've been no more successful with recipes calling for first making a sponge, but perhaps my inexperience explains that.

What is recommended regarding salt, or regarding adding yeast and salt separately?

~ beau

[tino27]

It is true that if the yeast comes in contact with the salt, it can kill many yeast cells. In a fully mixed dough, salt is present for at least two reasons:

1) Flavor

2) To retard the yeast from growing too quickly

There are some other reasons why salt is important, but we'll save those for another time.

There are two schools of thought on when to add the yeast. The first is to add all the ingredients into the bowl and then add the liquid (water). The other is to add everything to the bowl EXCEPT for the salt, mix and knead for almost the full amount of time and then add the salt during the last minute or so of kneading. This is called (or at least I was told it was called) the "delayed salt method" for hopefully obvious reasons.

If you do the delayed salt method, you don't have to worry about killing any yeast cells because by the time you add the salt, there is a whole bunch of flour and water to keep the salt from directly touching the yeast cells.

If you want to add the salt at the beginning of the process, my advice would be to add 1/2 the flour to your bowl, then add the yeast, then add the other 1/2 of the flour covering the yeast, and put the salt on top. And in fact, for the recipes that I do that does not call for the delayed salt method, this is how I do it and it always works just fine.

One thing to note though is that unless you are scaling out your ingredients into your bowl and letting it sit for a significant period of time (like, say, overnight), the 2 minutes that the two might come into contact is probably going to have a minimal impact on the yeast. So if you are scaling and mixing right away, just placing the salt and the yeast on opposite sides of the bowl is probably all you will need to do. If you are scaling out the dry ingredients the night before, then you may want to make absolutely sure that there is no contact.

[beauregard]

Thanks tino27, this is *very* helpful.

I'll try the delayed salt method first, then the separated yeast/salt method.

>> unless you are scaling out your ingredients...<<

Scaling out is a new concept to me, so I researched it a little and will study up on it some more, then try to put it into practice.

>> ...into your bowl and letting it sit for a significant period of time (like, say, overnight)<<

If you don't mix right away, is there some benefit to letting the ingredients sit un-mixed overnight? Or is this perhaps just a professional baker's way of setting things up the day before so that mixing can be done immediately on arriving at work in the (early) morning?

~ beau

[tino27]

No problem.

When I say scaling out, I am referring to one thing explicitly and one thing implicitly. Explicitly I am referring to using a scale to weigh out my ingredients. Weighing out your ingredients is the absolutely surest way to ensure consistency from batch to batch. Implicitly I am referring to doing my mise en place for the recipe. For simple recipes, like French bread doughs where there are 4 or 5 ingredients, it isn't too hard to remember if you added all the ingredients. In more complex recipes where the number of ingredients can top a dozen, measuring everything out in its own little container is a great way to confirm you've remembered it all before dumping it into one big bowl.

For the home baker, scaling out the ingredients the night before is more often than not just a way to avoid having to do math early the next morning before that second cup of coffee has kicked in. For the professional baker, towards the end of your shift you would scale out the ingredients for the following day's production. Then when the next shift started, whomever was working would just use your pre-measured ingredients. It's a way of shifting some of the work so you can hit the ground running.

Whether you scale the night before or do it right before you make your dough, there would be no flavor difference between the two.