Babbo (First 6 Years)

[hjshorter]

I think people are using "midwest" to signify "that big middle part of the country that is not attached to a coast."

How did "the" "Midwest" get into this thread in the first place?

I still don't understand the following slkinsey comment . . .

all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Living in DC, which attracts yo-yos from around the globe, I can assure everyone that by far the worst mannered tourists here are NOT from the Midwest.

[bushey]

Except my Aunt who still thinks that gold lame (sp?) track suits are appropriate to wear out of the house

You mean they're not?????

[Blondie]

Cakewalk, all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

Same with Manhattanites that come out to the Hamptons. They stand out like a sore thumb and their out-of-place behavior provides the locals with hours of entertainment

[MatthewB]

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Interesting.

Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

[KNorthrup]

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Interesting.

Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

For the same reason Tommy told you folks to drop dead?

[slkinsey]

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Interesting.

Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

That is certainly not the implication I was making.

What I was saying was that behaviors and expectations that are absolutely fine and perfectly "mannered" in one cultural milieu may be less so in another. One who has a more cosmopolitan outlook is, presumably, able to modify his/her behavior and expectations accordingly.

[tommy]

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Interesting.

Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

old sammy picked a really inappropriate and unfortunate way of explaining his point. and now, rather than explaining his point, he's been forced to explain why he explained his point in the way that he did. although i don't know if he's realized that yet.

[tommy]

One who has a more cosmopolitan outlook is, presumably, able to modify his/her behavior and expectations accordingly.

yes yes, people who live in the metro area are certainly "cosmopolitan". and oh-so appropriate at restaurants.

[MatthewB]

I like the concept of cosmopolitan. Its meaning has some interesting history concerning the proponents of the French Revolution.

But let's not get sidetracked on that.

For me, being cosmopolitan includes the virtue of graciousness. But I'm a simple Midwest boy.

(As an aside, here's the definition of graciousness from www.dictionary.com: "marked by kindness, sympathy, and unaffected politeness: gracious to visitors; a cordial welcome; a genial guest; enjoyed a sociable chat.")

[slkinsey]

One who has a more cosmopolitan outlook is, presumably, able to modify his/her behavior and expectations accordingly.

yes yes, people who live in the metro area are certainly "cosmopolitan". and oh-so appropriate at restaurants.

Note, Tommy, that I have mentioned at least once (and several times, I believe) that New Yorkers can be just as inflexible in this regard when outside the City.

There is no need to put the word cosmopolitan in quotes, by thew way, since it has the well-established meaning of: "having worldwide rather than limited or provincial scope or bearing; having wide international sophistication."

[tommy]

Note, Tommy, that I have mentioned at least once (and several times, I believe) that New Yorkers can be just as inflexible in this regard when outside the City.

There is no need to put the word cosmopolitan in quotes, by thew way, since it has the well-established meaning of: "having worldwide rather than limited or provincial scope or bearing; having wide international sophistication."

i just don't buy that

1) NY'rs can be characterized as *anything*, even within the borders of NYC. it's a freakin melting pot, made up of people from all over the world with all types of backgrounds and divergently different thoughts on what is "appropriate" or correct.

and 2) NY'rs can be characterized as "cosmopolitan". some, sure. the majority? not sure. the majority of those who go to Babbo? not buying it.

the use of quotes, i think, is appropriate when quoting someone's words or word.

[slkinsey]

It seems to me that "Midwestern" is being used as a synonym for "unmannered."

Interesting.

Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

old sammy picked a really inappropriate and unfortunate way of explaining his point. and now, rather than explaining his point, he's been forced to explain why he explained his point in the way that he did. although i don't know if he's realized that yet.

As I think you can see from my earlier post, I never intended to make the implication that "midwestern" and "unmannered" were the same thing. And I don't think such a reaction particularly reflects what I wrote.

I could just as easily have written: "all I am saying is that Americans who go to Saudi Arabia or Bangladesh and expect their Americans behavior to be met with a response that meets their Americans expectations is a recipe for disappointment" or "all I am saying is that Martians who come to Earth and expect their Martian behavior to be met with a response that meets their Martion expectations is a recipe for disappointment."

If some people want to take that as a slam against people from the Midwest, or America or Mars... that's their own lookout.

But I will thank you kindly not to call me "Old Sammy," Tomuchkina.

[fresco]

Sam,

Might I suggest that you admit that you were talking rubbish, apologize, and exit this one?

[Felonius]

Right.  I don't necessarily disagree.  Except that I will say that the cultural norm in NYC, especially with respect to restaurants, is rather different from most of the rest of the country.  As a result, there will always be some complaints generated by cultural dissonance.

In the case of Babbo, "cultural dissonance" may indeed be generating some unfavorable press. I would also say that they are generating some bad will among regular NYC customers due mostly to front of the house service issues. Great food yes, gracious service no (with the exception of the wine staff and a few waitstaff).

Perhaps I'm too far off topic here but can't resist... I'm originally from the South, but have lived all over the world during the past 20 years. I recently visited family in Atlanta, and we lamented the lack of great restaurants in such a large and wealthy city. There are now SEVEN high end steakhouses (Ruth's Chris, Chops, Bones, Capital Grille, NYC Prime, Prime Steaks, and Morton's) within a ONE MILE RADIUS in metro Atlanta, yet only 3 fine dining restaurants (Bacchanalia, Joel's, and Seeger's) in the entire city that we thought could hold a candle to anything upscale in NYC, San Francisco, Chicago or L.A. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect your "cultural dissonance" theory is part of it. Every time someone opens up a restaurant that doesn't meet local expectations for portions, presentation, whatever - it gets panned by lots of people.

The following quote is a good example from a reviewer on a local food site, talking about one of the few truly excellent restaurants in Atlanta:

"I couldn't pronounce half of the items on the one page menu. I don't know where this chef grew up, but apparently it wasn't the U.S. The food was terrible and looked and tasted like it belonged in an art gallery rather than on a table. The portions were tiny and the prices a whole other subject. They were outrageous! The beautiful and romantic atmosphere would be my only reason for going back!"

I'd say there's some serious "cultural dissonance" going on there, as the place in question is arguable the best in the Southeast (I ate there last week and it was fantastic). I suppose the motto for French chefs hoping to relocate from NYC to Atlanta should be "Let them eat steak!"

Edited August 12, 2003 by Felonius (log)

[slkinsey]

i just don't buy that

1)  NY'rs can be characterized as *anything*, even within the borders of NYC.  it's a freakin melting pot, made up of people from all over the world with all types of backgrounds and divergently different thoughts on what is "appropriate" or correct.

I don't think it is inappropriate or inaccurate to suggest that the New Yorkers who go to high-end restaurants in Manhattan tend to share a certain cultural paradigm as it relates to dining in these establishments, by and large.

and 2)  NY'rs can be characterized as "cosmopolitan".  some, sure. the majority?  not sure.  the majority of those who go to Babbo?  not buying it. .

Where did I say that New Yorkers were cosmopolitan? You reached that conclusion all on your own.

[MatthewB]

NY'rs can be characterized as "cosmopolitan".  some, sure. the majority?  not sure.

And some NY'rs can be characterized as snobs. Some? Surely. The majority? Nope.

One dictionary's definition of snob: 1. One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors. 2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.

[tommy]

As I think you can see from my earlier post, I never intended to make the implication that "midwestern" and "unmannered" were the same thing.  And I don't think such a reaction particularly reflects what I wrote.

*i* know that. and *you* know that. but those damned midwesterns aren't buying your brand of damage control as far as i can tell. just an observation.

[bilrus]

I'm glad that my parents moved me out of St. Louis when I was 1.

Stone,

In another recent thread, I mentioned that I hadn't gotten pissed off at many things I had read on eGullet and you said that i hadn't been reading your posts closely enough.

This time you got me. Who is to say those people were from the Midwest? Who is to say that any of the so-called 'TOurists' everyone so easily identifies as being from the Midwest are indeed from the Midwest.

I am from DC now, but lived in the aforementioned St. Louis for 22 years. I was raised properly as were most, but not all, of my friends and certainly know how to act in most social situations.

I am sure this is the case in cities and towns all across the midwest (and West, Norteast, Southeast and proablably Europe, Asia and everywhere else. Some people have social grace and some don't.

Aw, come on. I was just joking. All of my cousins in St. Louis dress and act very well. (Except my Aunt who still thinks that gold lame (sp?) track suits are appropriate to wear out of the house.)

It's funny, New Yorkers take a lot of shit from everyone else in the country. We're rude, overbearing, obnoxious, frenetic, impolite, unfriendly, demanding, narcisistic, degenerate, criminal, pompous, egotistical, and basically destroying the moral fabric of society.

But when we try to give it back a little,

I'm not really pissed, just more annoyed that there is the sense that Midwestern=Rube.

[macrosan]

I don't even know where the Midwest is, so I won't get drawn into your local spat over there. But this thread started off trying to discuss an interesting and important question. I do think the exalted person of co-coordinator of the New York Forum should allow it to slip back to that discussion.

I'm waiting to hear an explanation of how and why a restaurant of the pretension, standing and price-point of Babbo might deliberately or inadvertently "cater for" a "New York crowd" and not be able to provide high quality service to the "non New York crowd".

[Varmint]

"having wide international sophistication."

It's so nice that y'all are talking about me!

Hell, I'm from the sticks, and I'm planning to go to Babbo. We'll see how they treat me.

[slkinsey]

I'm not really pissed, just more annoyed that there is the sense that Midwestern=Rube.

For fuck's sake, people. Get a grip.

If you want to interpret what I wrote as saying that "Midwestern = Rube" then you're on your own there. That's your own interpretation. Nothing I have said in this thread necessarily lends itself to such an interpretation... unless you are highly invested in taking offense at my suggestion that the "restaurant experience" paradigm of most visitors from the Midwest is not the same as thhe "high end NYC restaurant experience" paradigm of most New Yorkers who patronize such establishments. And, frankly, I think one would have to be completely oblivious to such differences to suppose this were not the case, which of course runs in the opposite direction as well.

And that's all I have to say about that. Back to the topic.

[MatthewB]

If you want to interpret what I wrote as saying that "Midwestern = Rube" then you're on your own there.  That's your own interpretation.  Nothing I have said in this thread necessarily lends itself to such an interpretation... unless you are highly invested in taking offense at my suggestion that the "restaurant experience" paradigm of most visitors from the Midwest is not the same as thhe "high end NYC restaurant experience" paradigm of most New Yorkers who patronize such establishments.  And, frankly, I think one would have to be completely oblivious to such differences to suppose this were not the case, which of course runs in the opposite direction as well.

But you did state this in response to my direct question:

It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town.

You also said this:

Cakewalk, all I am saying is that midwesterners who go into an NYC restaurant and expect their midwestern behavior to be met with a response that meets their midwestern expectations is a recipe for disappointment.

You still haven't explained what these "cultural differences" are. What is it that you, Sam, *do* in places like Babbo that I wouldn't do? What is it that I would do, that you wouldn't do? (Remember I've lived nearly all my life in the Midwest.) Share your secrets.

[slkinsey]

I'm waiting to hear an explanation of how and why a restaurant of the pretension, standing and price-point of Babbo might deliberately or inadvertently "cater for" a "New York crowd" and not be able to provide high quality service to the "non New York crowd".

I certainly wouldn't say that Mario's places do anything like this "deliberately." Let me make an example: Po, Mario's first restaurant, is down in the Village. Like most restaurants of its kind, there is always some kind of "downtown music" blaring over the sound system at a very loud level. This is something that is absulutely de rigeur for these restaurants of that kind in that neighborhood (or, at least it was 5+ years ago when I ate there last).

Now, sound levels like this could (and did) impact the experience of Po customers who did not have the cultural expectation of loud downtown music accompanying their dinners. In the case of customers who had a pre-existing cultural expectation that restaurants are quiet, this could be a real problem and create a real negative experience. It could result in a number of complaints where customers not used to that kind of experience ask to have the sound turned down and are rebuffed by the staff at Po. At some point, if enough people with different expectations come to the restaurant, the question is whether or not Po decides to lower the music for these people or to stay the same.

Now, with Babbo, there is some question in my mind (and if you go back to my original post, it is one thing that I threw out as a possibility among several) as to whether the huge influx of people with different cultural expectations (i.e., people from out of town who don't eat at a lot of high end NYC restaurants) might have contributed to the observed growth in complaints about the restaurant. For sure it is not the only factor, but it might be a contributing factor.

[tommy]

i hate pink floyd and found that babbo plays pink floyd at quite a volume during dinner at times. i just remembered that.

sam's points and example of music volume seems valid to me.

[Varmint]

In the one lengthy Babbo thread that we had some time ago, tommy contemplated how much better Babbo would be if it were a Danny Meyer restaurant. I think that the people from "Peoria" are treated very well at Gramercy Tavern, where there are no unwritten rules of proper cosmopolitan decorum. If it works at GT and the other Meyer spots, why not Babbo?