Does Italy lack culinary relevance?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Paella

[Jinmyo]

If indeed the discussion does turn in that direction, could we not just talk about individual European countries ? In my experience, the European countries have so little in common with one another, that the very term pan-European is pan-oxymoronic.

Clickez.

[Gavin Jones]

Paella

Rice is for the tourists.

[peterpumkino]

I don't know what happened to the actual quote but Steve Plunicki said something about he wants the food in Italy the way HE wants it.

My Gawd, can you imagine! Gourmet Spaghetti with meat balls served by a celebrity chef standing on a large TV and talking with a phony French accent!

Steve, the Italian food is cooked for Italians, they don't care about what you want!

[Tonyfinch]

The inescapable conclusion appears to be that France is the ONLY country that has reached these high technical levels and still stayed in touch with its indigenous cuisine.

Restaurants that aspire to these heights in other countries were either French in the first place in all but location or at some point left the culinary roots of the country they were in way behind. And according to Lizzies report on L'Arnsbourg, its happening now in France as well.

So,as Robert implies,maybe the link between a country's cuisine and new haute cuisine doesn't exist anywhere anymore and the haute cuisine restaurants like El Bulli and Fat Duck etc. all have far more in common with each other than any of them do with the cuisine of their host country.

Therefore even if 3 brilliant high end restaurants opened in italy tomorrow ,it still wouldn't mean that Italian cuisine was any more relevant,merely that they happened to be located in Italy.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Robert - Gee did I say that they (the Italians) didn't have good 20th century furniture and decorative arts?

No, Steve, you didn't say that. I was simply pointing out their existence as an interesting analogy with the discussion we've been having about food.

As for being a secret, I was referring to the marketplace, which, with certain notable exceptions - Carlo Mollino and first quality Murano glass, for example - has tended to undervalue Italian furniture and decorative arts, although not so much anymore.

But what about this: are the greatest chefs of Spain - the ones you are interested in - producing great Spanish food? Likewise England?

[mogsob]

This has got to be the most interesting discussion ever on eGullet. I agree entirely with Tony's prior post -- haute cuisine is increasingly its own reference point.

But perhaps the reason that Italy has had minimal effect on the development of haute (French word) cuisine (French word) is that the very definition of "haute cuisine" appears to be defined by Michelin (French publication) based on subjective criteria that emerged in early 20th century France.

Perhaps another question is why French cuisine has had little relevance to Italian cuisine, given its profound influence elsewhere in the world.

All the same, I still believe that French cuisine demanded, and still demands, the constant modification and perfection of technique, while Italian cuisine, due to its inherent simplicity, does not. Thus, the techniques of haute cuisine are French. But I think the Italians have influenced haute cuisine in focusing on pristine ingredients.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Mogsob - Well thanks for getting this conversation back on track. But the original question really implies, why haven't they created their own version of haute cuisine. They certainly have tried. I've eaten in a number of restaurants. And as I said earlier, they aren't bad places to dine. They are good. But they are missing that special element that the French have incorporated into their cuisine. As to the issue of whether this new cuisine is culturally consistant and not international in style, I also think that doesn't make a difference. Remove the burdern of it having to be Italian to qualify. All it needs are an Italian chef, or a restaurant in Italy. Even with lowering the bar to that standard we still can't name a single person or place that "makes the list."

Robert S. - And there are many great deco furniture designers from Italy as well. As to the rest of your point, see above.

[AdamLawrence]

Maybe it's just that the market doesn't exist for Italian-derived haute cuisine. I don't know Italy well enough to say whether there are sufficient domestic customers for such places, but it seems to me that, without the gastronomic tourists, most of the three-star French palaces would be up shit creek sans paddle; and perhaps that's not why travellers go to Italy.

After all, Steve, you're a pretty assidous gastrotourist, and you yourself have said that you haven't yet been to El Bulli, or Arzak, or El Raco because you can't quite see yourself going to Spain on a food-driven trip (I'm paraphrasing from inadequate memory of previous threads; feel free to correct my paraphrase if you like) - and the buzz about Spain is deafening at the moment, so how hard must it be to attract people like you to go on a similar trip in Italy?

And most those people who do travel regularly in Italy seem to be interested in a different aesthetic - that's why they are Italophiles, not Francophiles. Those haute cuisine places in Italy that do exist must be competing for a relatively small number of customers. So it's a bit circular.

Adam

[peterpumkino]

Even with lowering the bar to that standard we still can't name a single person or place that "makes the list."

Whose list is this?

[peterpumkino]

And most those people who do travel regularly in Italy seem to be interested in a different aesthetic - that's why they are Italophiles, not Francophiles. Those haute cuisine places in Italy that do exist must be competing for a relatively small number of customers.

That's exactly the point Adam, but Mr. Plootnik doesn't see it this way (he knows better you see).

[mogsob]

Steve P -- I think French cuisine, due to its sui generis nature, naturally gave birth to what we call haute cuisine. Countries without great gastronomic traditions have copied French techniques to create their own version of haute cuisine. Italy, however, has a great gastronomic tradition and therefore resists the intrusion of seemingly ubiquitous French techniques.

[Jonathan Day]

Peterpumkino -- I disagree with some of the conclusions that Steve has reached, and I have some issues with his style of argument. But why waste everyone's time and cause unnecessary offence by deliberately misspelling his or any member's name? All that does is add heat, not light, to the conversation.

[Wilfrid]

I think the extent to which French haute cuisine is an outgrowth of regular French cooking, rather than something created sui generis by a certain confluence of circumstances we've discussed on other threads, is often considerably overstated.

[hollywood]

The inescapable conclusion appears to be that France is the ONLY country that has reached these high technical levels and still stayed in touch with its indigenous cuisine.

Restaurants that aspire to these heights in other countries were either French in the first place in all but location or at some point left the culinary roots of the country they were in way behind. And according to Lizzies report on L'Arnsbourg, its happening now in France as well.

So,as Robert implies,maybe the link between a country's cuisine and new haute cuisine doesn't exist anywhere anymore and the haute cuisine restaurants like El Bulli and Fat Duck etc. all have far more in common with each other than any of them do with the cuisine of their host country.

Therefore even if 3 brilliant high end restaurants opened in italy tomorrow ,it still wouldn't  mean that Italian cuisine was any more relevant,merely that they happened to be located in Italy.

You are far too reasonable and rational for this discussion. Hence, I completely agree with you.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam - Thanks for a measured and unbiased response. And before I respond, everyone is acting like I do not like Italian food, or that I do not understand how good "real" Italian food can be in Italy. Quite the contrary. I know it quite well and have enjoyed it there on numerous occassions. In fact I'm on my way there in a few weeks to do nothing but eat and go wine tasting. So in spite of the protestations of a number of people here, it isn't a matter of me not liking the food.

I have actually made one very narrow point which is, at the level of dining we would call high end, Italian restaurants and their chefs have had very little impact on diners outside of Italy. Now I haven't offered that as an opinion, I have offered it as a fact based on three things. Word of mouth amongst travelers, cookbooks published by authors, more importantly ones that are imported into the U.S. and to U.K. specialty cookery shops, and articles published in the specialty food press for either travelers or professionals in the industry. I think anyone here who keeps track of these things would corroborate what I just said as being true.

Now it used to be different. There was a time between 1982-1992 where the "new cuisine" in Italy was of interest to many people. Nuvina cucina was hot. Pictures of Gualtiero Marchesi's open ravioli appeared everywhere and other restaurants were getting big press and people were talking about the chefs. But around 1992, maybe a little bit later it died. And since then it has had very little relevance to the three categories I layed out.

Now the Italian lovers on the board hate to hear the truthful answer to why that is the case. But the reason is because the chefs were basically unsuccessful at creating a modern version of Italian cuisine that people outside of Italy were interested in. Of course that doesn't mean that the food they were cooking wasn't any good, it just wasn't good enough to compete for attention on the worldwide food scene. And to many of us who know what eating in Italy can be like, and understand how good it can be on a lesser level of dining, we always scratch our heads that not a single chef in Italy figured out how to push the cuisine to a higher expression of culinary artistry. That is why the various protestations put forth here do not respond to this point. Italy might have great cooking in the style of grandmothers but the country is without a Alice Waters, Thomas Keller, Wolfgang Puck, Nobu etc. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that those of us who are "gastrotourists" would find that odd and would wonder why that is the case?

As for your specific point about Spain, I've been to Arazak (overrated but a terrific and cheap wine cellar) but your paraphrasing is a little bit off. What I have said is that the regions that the Spanish version of haute cuisine is taking place in does not have many other tourist attractions. Like you used to be able to go to the Cote D'Azur for a week and combine museums, beach, shopping etc. with 3 three star restaurants and 4 two star restaurants plus a bunch of famous casual places. The Costa Brava and the Basque region are not user friendly in the same way and to eat at the four starred restaurants on the Cosata Brava means some awfully quiet days. You are literally going there just to eat.

I can assure you there is no shortage of restaurants in Italy serving their indiginous version of haute cuisine. There are hundreds of them and they are super famous inside Italy. It isn't unusual to be there and to put on the TV and to see someone like Vissani or some other super modern chef making something wild looking. But nobody outside of Italy cares about it. In fact even the people on this board who have been arguing against my position don't care about it. They are pushing traditional Italian cuisine. It really has nothing to do with Francophile or Italophile or anything else. It has to do with the fact that the French, and the Spanish, and in some part the British and the Americans are successful at their haute cuisine and the Italians are not as successful. That's the whole thing in a nutshell and I don't know why that statement has everyone so fertootsed because it is to a large extent, generally true.

[macrosan]

But the original question really implies, why haven't they created their own version of haute cuisine.

I truly and honestly cannot believe you said that, Steve.

Surely the whole thrust of your argument on this thread, and so many others, is that de facto only the French represent and "possess" haute cuisine. Whatever any other country in the world has done with its own cuisine you will not concede that it is haute cuisine will you ?

If I'm wrong, give me one example.

[peterpumkino]

Now the Italian lovers on the board hate to hear the truthful answer to why that is the case. But the reason is because the chefs were basically unsuccessful at creating a modern version of Italian cuisine that people outside of Italy were interested in. Of course that doesn't mean that the food they were cooking wasn't any good, it just wasn't good enough to compete for attention on the worldwide food scene.

Can you not get it into your stubborn Polish head that the Italian's don't care about the 'Worldwide scene'. They don't care about Steve Polanski, they don't care about Peter Pumkino - all they care about is that their food is fabulous and their standard are very high. As I said before, you can eat very badly in France - it's virtualy impossible in Italy.

I've had the pleasure of going to Arazak (twice, once before it was 'known') and not only did I not think that it was overated but, for me, they were of the best meals I've had (and, yes, before you get sarcastic, I've had many, many, truly great meals).

So you see Steve, either you are terribly wrong or you have to admit that what your saying is In Your Humble Opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[Tonyfinch]

Peterpumkino -- I disagree with some of the conclusions that Steve has reached, and I have some issues with his style of argument.  But why waste everyone's time and cause unnecessary offence by deliberately misspelling his or any member's name? All that does is add heat, not light, to the conversation.

JD, I have massive problems with Steve's style of argument,not only on this but on other threads too. And doubtless one day I will list them all out for him whether he wants to hear them or not.

Having said that, I totally agree with you about Peterpumkino's offensive interjections,which now seem to be bordering on the oafish.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macrosan - Well it's not true. There are restaurants in other countries that meet the standard I am describing. They are either haute cuisine or derivitive of. How about Tetsuya in Australia? How about the Fat Duck? How about The French Laundry? Spago, Gordon Ramsey, Nahm, Charlie Trotter? Those are all restaurants that have worldwide attention. There are no restaurants in Italy that get that type of attention these days. How about fish? Italy is a country that is surrounded by water. Name one chef in that country who is famous for preparing fish? In France you have Divellac, Minchelli and a few others and in the U.K. you have Rick Stein. Why are there no restaurants or chefs in Italy that are famous for preparing fish? And more importantly, why are there no restaurants or chefs in Italy that are famous for any reason at all during the last ten years?

Peter - I stated three reasons why high end Italian cooking isn't relevant. Word of mouth, cookbook releases especially ones that are imported into the U.S. and U.K., and articles published in the food press about chefs or restaurants in Italy. You completely ignored my *factual* evidence to try and change the subject into what Italians like. You then upon ignoring the facts I laid out, called it a matter of my opinion. Well I'm sorry if you don't like those facts. I know, facts can be pretty stubborn. And all your name calling of me, your snide comments and your buffoonery will not change those stubborn little facts that show you really don't know what you are talking about. Show me evidence that says Italian restaurants, chefs, or cuisine are getting attention on a worldwide basis? Because that is the only statement I have made. That they aren't and that the reason is that they have failed at the haute cuisine level. Telling me that Italians "like their pasta that way" is not responsive to anything I've said.

I'm glad you liked Arzak. My meal was "correct" and nothing more. I apply a higher standard then that. And I've heard others (especially chefs) agree with you gush about the place as well. Maybe I was there on an off night. But then again, I haven't had anyone whose opinion I really trust think the place is better then very good.

Tony - I think JD's point was to say to Peter that in spite of his not agreeing with my style or substance, the posts are supposed to be about the topic, not a person. I fail to see how your last post is really any different then Peter's, albeit said in a friendlier tone. If you have something to say about me, or too me, that is what the PM system or email is for. But trying to say it publicly only means you want to draw the attention of others to the conversation.

[Tonyfinch]

Steve. JD said he has some issues with your style of argunent. I was agreeing with him.But you are right. Listing them out on the boards is not the way to go.If I'm bestirred enough again in the future to be bothered I'll PM you about it.

[Adam Balic]

Macrosan - Well it's not true. There are restaurants in other countries that meet the standard I am describing. They are either haute cuisine or derivitive of. How about Tetsuya in Australia? How about the Fat Duck? How about The French Laundry? Spago, Gordon Ramsey, Nahm, Charlie Trotter? Those are all restaurants that have worldwide attention. There are no restaurants in Italy that get that type of attention these days. How about fish? Italy is a country that is surrounded by water. Name one chef in that country who is famous for preparing fish? In France you have Divellac, Minchelli and a few others and in the U.K. you have Rick Stein. Why are there no restaurants or chefs in Italy that are famous for preparing fish? And more importantly, why are there no restaurants or chefs in Italy that are famous for any reason at all during the last ten years?

Steve - good point (although, I beleive that there are a few people in Italy that are doing similar things to Stein, although not with fish).

Have you got any feel for why no foreign chefs have gone into Italy in the last ten years and represented the cuisine contempory modern gastronmic way? If the food/ingredients themself (not to mention the wine) excell, why hasn't some young turk spotted an oppertunity and gone for it? This doesn't make sense to me at all. Not enough Haute cuisine diners going to Italy?

[macrosan]

Macrosan - Well it's not true. There are restaurants in other countries that meet the standard I am describing. They are either haute cuisine or derivitive of. How about Tetsuya in Australia? How about the Fat Duck? How about The French Laundry? Spago, Gordon Ramsey, Nahm, Charlie Trotter? Those are all restaurants that have worldwide attention. There are no restaurants in Italy that get that type of attention these days.

Steve, I have no argument with you on that, but it doesn't address my question to you.

The Fat Duck is in England, but that doesn't tell you that therefore the English have developed their own haute cuisine. I suppose you would broadly judge The Fat Duck to be French. Similarly with Gordon Ramsay, French Laundry and Charlie Trotter. Does the existence of Nahm say to you that Thailand has developed its own haute cuisine ? I think not.

My challenge to you, responding to your own words about Italian cuisine is to name one country apart from France which has adopted its own style of haute cuisine

[Ron Johnson]

Do we need to call someone in Italy and let them know that apparently they can't cook worth a shit and have been deemed irrelevant?

[Gavin Jones]

you have Rick Stein

Though I had a delicious meal at his restaurant a few years ago this had nothing to do with haute-cuisine.

In fact I would actively avoid an haute-cuisine place that specialised in fish - the ethos of such cooking seems precisely inimical to good seafood .