Question about bread, specialty grains

[jupe]

I've been baking a couple loaves of whole wheat today, and after I put them in the oven it occurred to me that baking and brewing (I do both) have a lot in common. Both use different types of grains for different flavors, both rely an enzymes to convert complex carbohydrate to simpler sugars, and both include fermentation. So I got to thinking, what other ways do they intersect? What ideas can I take from one process and apply it to another?

The first thought I had was using heat to convert complex sugars into simpler ones in baking. This is required in brewing, as the sugars contained in barley aren't wholly digestible by yeast. So I've been contemplating experimenting with holding pastes at different temperatures to try and control the enzymatic process. It probably won't work, but might be worth a little exploration.

While thinking about that, I realized that perhaps a better experiment would be to use specialty grains directly in whole wheat bread. Specialty grains in brewing, for those who are unfamiliar, are grains that are used to control the color and flavor of the brew. For example, barley is roasted at high temperatures to create black malt, chocolate malt, black patent, and many others which contribute highly to the flavor of stouts. Same with amber malts, crystal malt, peat malt (used in Scotch whiskey), and many others.

So my question is this: has anyone tried, say, an oatmeal stout wholegrain bread? Not actually using beer in the bread, but the grain profile used to make a stout. I have a nice grain mill, so I should be able to process any grain. Any experience, thoughts, or gotchas?

Cheers, and happy saturday!

[Serj]

I have zero experience with this and know very little about the malting process & fermentation, but I think it sounds like a pretty cool experiment! Would you roast the grain before milling it, or vice versa? Also, can you actually taste the difference between a lightly roasted grain and a dark roasted grain or is it a difference, say in brewing, that comes out in the fermentation process of the beer? My other thought is does roasted barley taste any good on its own if it's not used to make beer?

Good luck with the experimentation.... =)

[Okbrewer]

I've used spent grains in bread before. After mashing the grains and sparging, instead of tossing them on the compost pile, pull off some of the spent grains and put them in your next loaf of bread. I use only about a cup of spent grains.

I have never tried using just dry specialty malts. But I like the idea! Especially of using some peated malt to add some smokiness.

Peter Reinhart suggests a 'mashing' technique for some enzymatic action, just like in brewing. But I think of making a soaker as doing much the same thing. Kind of like doing an overnight mash.

Bob R in OKC

[jupe]

I have zero experience with this and know very little about the malting process & fermentation, but I think it sounds like a pretty cool experiment! Would you roast the grain before milling it, or vice versa? Also, can you actually taste the difference between a lightly roasted grain and a dark roasted grain or is it a difference, say in brewing, that comes out in the fermentation process of the beer? My other thought is does roasted barley taste any good on its own if it's not used to make beer?

Good luck with the experimentation.... =)

←

Roasted barley tastes *awesome* even before brewing. It's like grape nuts for big kids. Most home brewers I know except for two or three never taste their grains, wort, or mash, but I can't explain how truly awesome it is to know the flavors of each step and how they transition. Also, the flavor difference between types of malt is night and day. Anyone, even without a trained palate can taste the difference between amber and chocolate malt, and most people can taste a difference between brands.

[jupe]

I've used spent grains in bread before.  After mashing the grains and sparging, instead of tossing them on the compost pile, pull off some of the spent grains and put them in your next loaf of bread.  I use only about a cup of spent grains.

I have never tried using just dry specialty malts.  But I like the idea!  Especially of using some peated malt to add some smokiness. 

Peter Reinhart suggests a 'mashing' technique for some enzymatic action, just like in brewing.  But I think of making a soaker as doing much the same thing.  Kind of like doing an overnight mash.

Bob R in OKC

←

The nagging question I have about enzymatic reactions at lower temperatures is two-fold:

1. Will you get an a good tasting increase in less complex sugars if you 'mash' a flour paste as higher temperatures

2. Will gluten suffer at higher temperatures

Beta and alpha amalayse efficiency is highest at very specific temperatures, and it is entirely possible that 'mashing' a paste before fermentation may make the end result either too sweet, or have a dubious gluten network.

Here is a chart I've used in brewing showing the correlation between beta/alpha amalayse and PH.

Protease breaks up large protein molecules, which I would assume also include gluten. Alpha amalayse breaks down complex carbohydrates into small fermentable sugars, and beta amalayse breaks carbohydrates into less fermentable sugars.

I guess the two things I'm concerned about with unspent grains in bread are that the hull (the tough outer layer of the grain) won't be unpalatable, and that the perceived sweetness isn't dramatically increased. It is possible that with fine milling and no mashing, that won't be an issue.

Thoughts? I may try this tomorrow.

[dougal]

... So my question is this:  has anyone tried, say, an oatmeal stout wholegrain bread?  Not actually using beer in the bread...

←

Why ever not? Its great!

Rolls made with stout, rolled (ie porridge) oats, and wholegrain wheat or spelt flour...

Recipe and video:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/food/2007/11/b..._oat_and_h.html

Fabulous adult taste, lovely moist chewy texture... Great!

Dan Lepard also uses a variety of grains (and beers) in his "Handmade Loaf".

While discussing the making of homemade malt, he suggests the use of homebrew malts - ground for example in a mini electric spice mill, before incorporation into the flour.

On using Crystal Malt, see for example

http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427

Edited February 17, 2008 by dougal (log)

[jupe]

That is exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

[jupe]

I've been doing some experimenting today with some techniques I mentioned above, and I have some results and photos already.

First off, making 'flour' from specialty grains like Black Patent (http://homebrewheaven.com/black-patent-malt.htm) is quite easy. I started by grinding some by hand in a pestle and it worked great. Later I ground it with my blender and that worked just as well, and was quite quick. Here is the original black patent malt:

After grinding them sifting through a metal mesh sieve, the result is a bit coarser than white flour but less coarse than some whole wheat and definitely finer than corn meal. Sorry that this pic is blurry, but I don't have a good close up lens.

The smell is amazing, with biscuity/chocolately aromas and a bitter, astringent taste. It looks like making flour with malted barley is not as intimidating as I initially thought, though controlling the hull to flour ratio might be challenging with other types of grain.

The second experiment I've been thinking of is taking a paste of white flour and water, and raising that to mashing temperatures (~140 F) for an hour and a half and observed the carbohydrate to sugar conversion. Because the temperatures you find making commercial flour destroys many of the enzymes needed for this to occur, I added a small amount of crushed pale malt to a flour/water paste I made.

Here is the bag of pale malt:

The pale malt, white flour, and water:

And the crushed malt separated into hull and flour:

I only added the sifted flour on the right, and not the hulls on the left. It was about two tablespoons of flour in total, added to 200g of flour and 300g of water.

Then, the paste was heated to 140 F and left to sit at them temperature for 90 minutes. I saved some of the original in a small bowl at room temperature for taste and consistency comparison.

It would probably be better to use a double boiler for gentler heat, but I was able to get the paste to 140 without any scorching or excessive gelatinization (which was my main fear). After 90 minutes, I had both me and my wife taste both (and I hadn't told her what I was doing).

The difference between the two was eye opening. The higher temp radically changed the flavor of the paste compared to the sample I kept at room temp. It was much, much sweeter, had much less of the bland gritty taste of the original, and was the same consistency as the original.

At that point, I added 300g more flour, two tablespoons of the black patent flour I just created, 10g of salt, 5g of yeast, and a tablespoon of grapeseed oil (that's the green stuff in the pic, it tastes lovely in bread).

I mixed for 5 minutes on medium and did a window pane test, which confirmed that the gluten development was at least as good as my regular whole wheat bread and almost as good as the all white baguettes I've been baking.

I now have the loaf in bulk fermentation, and i'm biting my fingernails in anticipation. So far the dough tastes sweeter (in a very, very pleasant way) and more complex than i've baked.

Wish me luck, as I'm writing this as I'm doing it. It may be a failure, it may be overkill, but it also may be killer. I'll post results as I get them.

[jupe]

Here is the loaf after bulk fermentation, just into proofing.

The black specks are larger bits of black patent malt, and in the spirit of an oatmeal stout I've topped with oats. The lighter parts of the dough as lighter because of a light water glaze I used to keep the oats attached.

[jupe]

The crumb is tighter than I was originally aiming for, but it turned out quite tasty. You can really taste the black patent malt, with it adding a smoky, almost chocolaty flavor. I'm going to do a few more experiments, since I would like to determine if the righter crumb was due to prior gelatinization of 2/5's of the flour, old yeast, or if I just didn't proof long enough.

[cdh]

Fascinating. I'm going to have to try that. I like the thought of a Special B loaf with some raisins in.

[tino27]

Based on your numbers, you had 300g water and 500g of white flour. This is a 60% hydration (300/500 x 100). Try increasing your hydration to 70% and you may be rewarded with a looser crumb.

BTW, this is quite exciting. Thanks for being so rigorous on your documentation.

[jupe]

i actually miswrote that, with the addition of the other grains it ended up being 65% hydration. i am going to ratchet up the hydration a tad more, use gentler heat, and a more complex grain bill next time. the flavor of the black patent malt is pretty dominating, but if i can extract more sugar from the grain it may balance it out better.