Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[rotuts]

Yes he does 

 

based on what i have

 

over the few years.

 

I take very very good care of these knives.

 

w the EdgePro and etc.

 

love them all .

Edited July 18, 2020 by rotuts (log)

[rotuts]

Im a Watanabe fan.

 

excellent information above

 

Watanabe's are a little over 200 , but not much.

 

and I agree  :  a fine cutting board ( Japanese ) is fun.

 

but start considering how you are going to sharpen 

 

your Japanese Knife Collection  

[paulraphael]

Japanese Knife Imports doesn't get mentioned enough around here. It's one of the best shops anywhere for knives and information.  The founder, Jon Broida, knows as much as anyone and is almost unreasonably generous with advice. He even talked me out of buying an expensive knife once ... I was complaining about one of the qualities of my gyuto, and was interested in one he sold in a similar style (there was a big buzz about it online). Jon said I probably wouldn't notice any difference. He'd actually owned my knife, and another model I was considering, and had used them both when he cooked professionally. So it wasn't just speculation.

 

The shop mostly sells knives you won't see elsewhere. Jon works with small Japanese makers and has them create lines of knives just for his shop to sell. He rebrands them with "Gesshin" plus the maker's mark. The Gesshin Ginga line, for example is made by Ashi Hamono. They're similar to the Gingas Ashi sells directly from Japan, but they're heat treated to a higher hardness level, have a more smoothly rounded spine and choil, and a nicer handle. And they cost a little more. Jon's got several lines of knives, all by different makers. And his own line of stones. I just picked up a Gesshin 6K splash-n-go stone and it might be the nicest I've used. 

 

So the TL;DR if you're looking for a knife (and don't want to get bogged down in the details) is call JKI and just get whatever Jon tells you to get. 

[btbyrd]

Jon is the best. And his sharpening tutorial videos on YouTube are fantastic. And speaking of sharpening, his sharpening supplies (stones and whatnot) are also excellent. JKI’s customer service is some of the best in the business. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

15 minutes ago, williampaig said:

Im looking to experiment with some different Japanese knives and was wondering what are some popular/reliable/razor sharp choices? Ive owned a Global, and wasnt impressed (I sold it on ebay). I kinda like what I see and feel just holding a Shun, but have never used one. I know all about the German knives and own a few of them too, but want to know about some Japanese models the average Joe may not know about. Thanks.

 

If you want a razor sharp edge, Watanabe offers Togidashi sharpening...at a cost.

https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/togidashi.htm

 

 

[rotuts]

@JoNorvelleWalker 

 

thank you for that.

 

So informative .

 

now I have to consider a Watanabe single bevel knife.

 

its going to be buzzing and buzzing until I give up.

 

I use my EdgePro w the Watanabe's to 4000 grit.

 

think of the time savings if I only have to sharpen one side !

[Dr. Teeth]

I say this non critically, but you have started 2-3 threads asking the same question and so I hesitate to answer because I don’t want to seem like I am writing the same answers over and over to brow beat you.

 

if you want to get into Japanese knives you need to understand, they are higher performance, higher maintenance than German knives.   To keep a working edge on a Japanese knife you will need to periodically:

1) sharpen it yourself and hope you don’t wreck it while learning to sharpen (spoiler: you probably will);

2) send it off to be sharpened

3) take it to a local knife shop and have it sharpened and hope they don’t wreck it (spoiler: they probably will)

 

So I would first get a non super expensive knife that will give you a good sense of Japanese knives, either a fujiwara FKM or a Tojiro DP gyuto either 210 or 240mm.  Either of these is a much higher performance knife than a global or shun,  and will help you decide if you like japanese knives and will be a useful crash test dummy when you either sharpen yourself or take it to the local guys.

 

Failing that, Watanabe is not a bad suggestion.   His 180mm nakiri is a classic among knife guys.   His prices have gone up recently but are still reasonable.

[btbyrd]

+1 for what Dr. Teeth said, though I'll add that European knives also need to be sharpened periodically even though it seems like nobody ever does it. The suggestion to get a nice entry level knife and practice sharpening is definitely good advise. You could also pay a little more and get a more "artisanal" knife that has a core steel of white or blue (shirogami or aogami) carbon steel. These are the most popular reactive (non-stainless) steels used in Japanese kitchen knives. They're very lightly alloyed (they're mostly just iron and carbon) and fine grained. This makes them very easy to sharpen, and it's a pleasure to learn on this kind of steel compared to stainless (which is, generally speaking, more challenging to sharpen).

 

It's possible to get basically any knife shaving sharp with just a 500 grit stone. Sharpness isn't an intrinsic attribute of a knife, but is something that happens to a knife. Some knives come with an excellent edge from the factory while others require a bit of touching up to reach their full potential. Some Japanese makers don't bother to put a fully sharpened edge on their knives because they assume that the customer will do that themselves. Other makers are known for having an extremely keen edge out of the box, but edges don't last forever. Even the sharpest knife will dull after a few months of use. Granted, it may still be sharper at that point than your average home kitchen knives (which are horrid) but "shaving sharp" doesn't last long and is something you have to bring back. And unless you live near a reputable sharpener (which you probably don't) then the best option is to learn how to do it yourself. It seems daunting, but it's not rocket science. Korin and Japanese Knife Imports have excellent sharpening tutorial videos on YouTube.

 

As for single bevels, I generally advise that people should only buy a single bevel knife if it's perfectly clear to them why they want and need a single bevel knife. They're specialized tools for specific jobs, and unless you're regularly trying to make sushi or other Japanese cuisine at home, you'll have little use for these specialist knives. The kind of sharpening progression Watanabe offers is less about sharpness and more about the appearance and evenness of the bevel. It's more of a polishing step, not a sharpening step. And an Edge Pro is the wrong tool for sharpening single bevels.

[rotuts]

ill add this :  Globals are mighty fine knives.

 

they are not Watanabe's  or  similar quality other hand forged

 

and fashioned  japanese knives.

 

a long time ago , I splurged on a Global , BB@B  w co0upon !

 

the issue w them is they are difficult to sharpen.

 

KnifeForum types suggest the steel is sticky .  I have no idea what that means

 

I used to use water stones , and for a long while had a water stone ' wheel '

 

w different stones.  Hitachi !  it helped a lot. EdgePro was suggested

 

specifically for the Globals

 

so I moved to EdgePro , took my time , and got a very very fine edge on them.

 

it did take time , but I very much enjoyed both the ' handle ' and different sizes.

 

its my understanding there are a very large number of Globals that are not exported

 

from Japan to BB&B .     they are a pleasure to use and real workhorses.

 

the steel on a Watanabe is quite different.   I still use the EP w great success 

 

im no longer able to ' free hand '

 

Watanabe and I guessing similar steel does chip , w the tiniest tap

 

on something ceramic.

 

Globals do not.  My gl0bal collection moved to a friends house

 

he has EdgePro.  He has a few Watanabe's.

 

The Globals the family now has live in a wooden knife block and are used by the

 

entire adult family w pleasure .  remember , they are razor sharp due to the EdgePro.

 

The  Watanabe's are ' by appointment only '   and appointments are not easy to

 

obtain. But the Globals fill the families need very pleasantly.

 

@Dr. Teeth  has given you excellent advise .

Edited December 28, 2021 by rotuts (log)

[paulraphael]

Just a general thought ... we should be careful about generalizations regarding knives and countries of origin. There are great knives made many countries, and there are crappy knives made in Japan (including some of the more famous brands). 

 

"Japanese knife" is generally shorthand for "good knife that's been made with certain important Japanese knifemaking conventions." By these standards there many small knifemakers in the Americas and Europe (and probably every other part of the world) who make "Japanese knives." And I'd say that brands like Wasabi and Global are not really Japanese knives. Not in the same sense.

 

 

[btbyrd]

If anyone was tempted to buy a Watanabe after reading this thread, now is the time; prices go up 50% in May. And pay what you need to to avoid a plastic ferrule on the handle.

[rotuts]

https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/news/price.htm

 

pleased he has given people some time

 

@ the older prices.

 

well worth it  if this is a style of knife you are

 

thinking about , and willing to take care of.

[paulraphael]

10 hours ago, rrigreid said:

There is no $50K value in this knife and to offer this knife at that price, well I’ll leave you to offer judgment.

 

This is one of those areas where there's crossover between something being a tool and being an art object. The thing's value as a tool has no bearing on its art value. A fancy knife doesn't even have to be a good knife (although I understand that Kramer's are pretty good). The value of art objects is influenced by rarity and by some agreed-upon standards of craft, but the rest is pure subjectivity and the whims of the market.

 

Consider how much people spend on handmade, mechanical watches. You can get a more accurate timepiece for $20, but this has nothing to do with the allure.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Facing a couple unpaid weeks off work, I perhaps should not be reflecting on another knife -- but for anyone* who is, I read in The Economist that the Yen is in freefall against the Dollar.

 

 

*in the US

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Following up on my last post from two years ago.  The Yen is still weak against the dollar.  Watanabe's prices are about to increase yet once again, and I have a new Deba that I can't afford.

 

What's worse, I have nothing to cut with it and no place to store it.  A friend took me to a local supermarket with a worthy fish department.  I was hoping to find a bluefish on which to practice Mukoita.  No bluefish.  No whole fish on offer at all.  I did purchase a wild caught black sea bass fillet that was delicious, however no help whatsoever with improving my cutting skills.

 

The weight of the Watanabe is 424g and the thickness of the spine is 7.136 mm (Mitutoyo digital micrometer).  I have three knife blocks.  None has a slot to accommodate a Deba, so the Deba is still in its box.  I'm not about to play Deba does Damocles with the magnetic knife strip that dangles my almost as weighty Chinese cleaver not far from my head.

 

Not sure what I'll cut, but cut something I shall.  Hopefully not some part of me.

 

The Watanabe cladding on this Deba is stainless and I believe the steel is Blue #2.  If you want a Watanabe, don't wait.  Now might be a good time.

 

 

[rotuts]

 

@JoNorvelleWalker

 

how about a couple of pics ?

 

Watanabe knives are quite something 

 

to review :

 

 

I went to the Watanabe page

 

they didn't have many pics on the ' professional ' page

 

the above are ' professional '

 

nor any pics of deba's

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

8 hours ago, rotuts said:

 

@JoNorvelleWalker

 

how about a couple of pics ?

 

Watanabe knives are quite something 

 

to review :

 

 

I went to the Watanabe page

 

they didn't have many pics on the ' professional ' page

 

the above are ' professional '

 

nor any pics of deba's

 

 

 

I'll try to take a picture at some point, but I don't have the energy I used to have, and I can't even get to my camera until I move some furniture around.  I'd hate to have an iPad picture suffice.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

iPad it was.

 

 

 

Nikkiri for comparison.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Sadly I seldom cut with the Watanabe nikkiri because it is too beautiful, and I have a perfectly serviceable cheap nikkiri/nikiri that I am not afraid to dull on a plastic cutting board.  However after taking the picture, I brought out my better hinoki board and used the Watanabe for ken cut cabbage that accompanied last night's dumplings.  The Watanabe does make a difference.

[btbyrd]

That is absolutely stunning, Jo! I'd be cutting with that nakiri non-stop! Great looking handle too. Is that a 165 or a 180? You've gotta get a cutting board that's somewhere between cheap plastic and the soft "special occasion" feel of hinoki. There's no greater pleasure than putting really beautiful high end tools to use.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

On 5/6/2024 at 5:53 PM, btbyrd said:

That is absolutely stunning, Jo! I'd be cutting with that nakiri non-stop! Great looking handle too. Is that a 165 or a 180? You've gotta get a cutting board that's somewhere between cheap plastic and the soft "special occasion" feel of hinoki. There's no greater pleasure than putting really beautiful high end tools to use.

 

180.

 

Still trying to find a whole fish to try out the Deba.  Not to mention someplace to safely store the Deba.  My cutting board collection is approaching thirty boards.