Japanese Knives – What to Buy?

[Octaveman]

As Chad wrote in the tutorial: - "Sharpness is not just a function of creating a super-thin edge that will readily sever free-hanging nose hairs;

This cracks me up. I can't wait to read his book. I'm sure it's going to be filled with enough sarcasm and wit to make my day.

[Prawncrackers]

Toufas, i've given up ordering from the US - seems most packages get stopped by customs I've had stuff from most of the usual suspects over there and for me the only thing that ever got through unscathed was a stone from Epicurean Edge. Knives i always now buy from Japan as so far they never seem to get charged. It does my nut having to pay rip-off customs charges!!

So... in future for sharpening equipment try these on-line vendors:

Dick Great German retailer - top notch stuff, loads of sharpening stones and really friendly staff - they even speak English!

Axminster some good stuff here too

Shop4less found this one by accident, very good prices but slow delivery. Got a DMT Diasharp from this place, very good communications. They also have some knives.

[Toufas]

Octaveman: http://www.nisbets.co.uk/products/ProductD...roductCode=D139 thats the only info i have and its nothing at all

crackers it saddened me that i payed around 45% on top of my knives cost because of the customs

i was looking for a japanese knife for professional and personal use and i got info from this thread i made : http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=113176&hl=

which website you use for your japanese knives? or you go to japan?

from the videos of dave i saw, i use my 1000 stone, soaked in water first, put it on a towel as i dont have a holder, then do this

at a narrow angle? Edited March 26, 2008 by Toufas (log)

[Octaveman]

which website you use for your japanese knives? or you go to japan?

Fantastic place to buy knives from Japan...

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

[Prawncrackers]

It doesn't just sadden me to have to pay those charges, it makes me sick!

JCK is the #1 option for us in the UK and you can buy directly from the makers in Japan too of course. I'm sure Bob (Octaveman) can direct you to a list of websites over on Knifeforums. Be warned though that place is a support service for addicts (don't deny it Bob) but is the first choice for info on this sort of thing. My advice, go in hard then get out quick!!!

Funny, i am going to Japan again in May. But i'm going to try and resist the temptation of knife buying. It's because I only have small kitchen and i've already reached critical mass with knives. I honestly think i have all the knife styles i will ever need, any more are just going to be for show or are just going to force the ones that i have into a rotation system. Doesn't mean i'm not going to have a look around Kappabashi and Tsuikiji though. Ok, maybe i could fit in another petty or two and if the nenohi or sugimoto cleavers feel really nice then maybe....

Here's pic of my stuff anyway to feed your urge :

[Octaveman]

Sweet pic of some great stuff. Yeah, those knife forums are a dangerous place when you have money to spend and even more dangerous when you don't. As Prawn said, there are a few custom makers in Japan that you can get fantastic stuff from. Watanabe, Takeda and Moritaka for example and some other websites that have great stuff too like Tadatsuna, Kiku Ichimonji, Mizuno Tanrenjo, Fujiwara Teruyasu and the one with the most knives on my wish list...Nenohi.

Edited to add the links I had to look for.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[Toufas]

ok i ve been practicing sharpening on my older knives. i feel pretty confident and the stone itself is a great investment.

i have one question. the boning knife i got, has an edge only on one side, i guess i sharpen that side only right?

also, which motion is sharpening the edge? when you place the edge away, is it going away from you or coming towards you? (i hope you understand what i am saying)

[Octaveman]

Toufas, I must have missed what boning knife you have. Please post a picture or show me a link to where you got it. If it's a western styled knife you will sharpen on both sides but at different angles for each side. DO NOT lay the knife flat on the stone. Let's see what you got first.

[Toufas]

Tojiro-DP Honesuki 5.9" (15cm)

http://www.korin.com/product.php?pid=305&df=knife

not exactly a boning knife, but i wanted something smaller than a chefs knife:P

also. i think i need to read that tutorial in here, but i dont have the patience to read, if i watch something get done i learn it faster

[Octaveman]

It's not single-beveled but it is assymetrical...I would guess around 80/20. I'm still highly suggesting you either get Korin's DVD or Dave Martell's DVD. They both can help you tremendously in seeing how it's done with Dave's being more complete. The Korin DVD doesn't spend a whole lot of time explaining how to sharpen western styled knives. It's enough to get you started but there's a lot that needs to be talked about that the Korin DVD just doesn't do. Dave's DVD is very thorough and will give you all you need to know for free hand sharpening.

[scubadoo97]

Toufas I have a Tojiro DP Honesuki 150mm. Great boning knife. It is as close to a true single beveled knife as you will see. I would estimate it is as 90/10 or 95/5.

I sent a message to the people at Korin on sharpening it and they suggested that in sharpening it to just sharpen the front side till you get a burr then lightly remove it off the back side but don't put an angle on the back side. The knife was still sharp but I was in a sharpening mood last week and put steel to stone. Just boned out a bunch of chicken thighs. What a joy to use for jobs like that.

[Octaveman]

Since it is not 100/0 I would strongly suggest to put an angle on the backside even if very slight. If you don't put an angle on the backside you will scratch your entire blade up and you still wouldn't be hitting the edge until the backside goes flat. Being 90/10 says that 5% of the combined angle is on the backside. Let's say for example your knife has a combined angle of 20*. This means that 18* on the front side and 2* on the backside. Here's a trick...put a pencil flat up against each side of the knife so that it touches the spine. You can see light between it and the blade as you look toward the edge. Even if on the odd chance there is aboslutely no light between the pencil and the edge (making sure the pencil is touching the spine), I still wouldn't lay the knife down flat. If that's what Korin was suggesting, that was bad advice.

But here's the thing...you can sharpen it to whatever angle you want. You can turn it into a 50/50 edge if you wanted. There is no bevel angle police that's going to force you to keep the same angles. Since it's a boning knife I wouldn't make it too acute overall but changing the bevel angles is not so much a big deal because you're working around bones anyway. Because of it's use, it would not harm anything to change the bevel to your liking. Trying to sharpen and keeping the original angles on a 90/10 or 95/5 beveled knife is not easy and definately not easy for the sharpening newbie. If it were me, I would use two pennies on the backside to give you an idea of how low to take your blade. if you insist on using the original angles, don't get too pissed if you scratch your blade up.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[scubadoo97]

Thanks for the advice Bob. Your knowledge is always appreciated. I am using an EdgePro so I had the blade taped but did not attempt to run a stone flat against the blade. I was suprised that the front bevel was about 20* on the EdgePro. A little steeper than expected but it does have a very wide bevel on the front side. I did use a more acute angle to just lightly remove the burr on the back side. Compared to my German knife this took considerably longer to raise a burr.

And yes the advice from Korin was to not cut a bevel on the back but just remove the burr. They didn't say how.

[Octaveman]

Cool.

[aaguirrejr]

What's the difference between a french slicer and a sujihiki?

[Octaveman]

Well, other than visually probably nothing. The French slicer just has a taller profile than the sujihiki. Why Masanobu has those two I'll never know. I'd have to see them in person to tell further.

[aaguirrejr]

those knives are taking FOREVER to get here!!!!

at the mean time, should i not use these knives on acidic ingredients? heard it'll damage the knife permanently. is this an old wives' tale?

[Octaveman]

Yes, use the knives on whatever you want. After use though just rinse off real quick. The level of acidity in food will not harm your knives unless you left it sitting in it. Your knives will out live you so don't worry about it.

[Toufas]

ordered the dvd from david today

also i spent around 130usd in knives again today...

1 santoku

1 10" chefs knife

1 small paring knife

1 bread knife (the closest to a serrated edge i have now)

and 1 good steel

all henckels except from the steel

they were b grade henckels but from what i saw so far, they are perfectly fine (i guess they have different standards)

and all i wanted to see in that shop was to see if they had any fryers

talk about impulse buying

[Octaveman]

So, people should've received their new stuff by now. Want pics and thoughts. Please...thank you.

[Ariel Schor]

Got my Hiromoto Gyuto AS (24cm) blade in the mail yesterday. Only had to wait a week from the moment I ordered it, which was amazing.

I think all I need to say is that I never want to use another knife again. Razor sharp from the factory (though I'm told it gets even better after a few runs on the steel) and a blast to use. Cleaned 10 King Salmon at work today in record time, plus cut up some of the cleanest brunoise I have ever made. I can't wait to use it for carving and slicing terrines.

[stealw]

Quick question on Santoku's.

Was, well still am looking forward to getting one. Basically narrowed it down to three selections, 1. misono ux-10 2. kikuichi gold series and 3. glestain

What I have heard personally, from work and friends that the ux-10 is quite hard to sharpen for people not use to using/working with a 70/30 blade. While the 440 is "easier" to handle in terms of sharpening I dont think i should 'downgrade' per se the knife just for this reason.

Also, I have tried both the misono and kikuichi, both feels pretty nice. However, the Glestain I have yet to see Anyone carry them (santoku's atleast) and do not want to order a knife online that I have never felt in my hand. Anyone have any experience with the Glestain santoku, or even all three?

Jim

[Rembrant Wood]

The "unsanitary" look you refer to is what we knife knuts like to call patina.   

All kidding aside, arguably, carbon steels  have some qualities which can be considered advantageous when compared to stainless steels.  The carbides tend to be smaller which produces a blade which will tend to sharpen more easily and will tend to be less frangible than most stainless blades at the same rockwell level.  That said, there is the maintenance issue, to which you referred.  In some cases that can be a significant drawback.  It depends on how you will be using it and whether wiping your blade frequently is an inconvenience. 

A lot of folks feel that the best of both worlds is a warikomi blade like the Kumagoro, which is a carbon steel core laminated between two layers of soft stainless steel.  You get the benefits of the hard carbon steel and the maintenance benefits provided by the stainless.  The Kumagoro blades are very well regarded.  As long as you're not married to the idea of a western style handle, I think you'll be happy with what the Kumagoro knives bring to the table.

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The rather popular Tojiro DP is Swedish Carbon core and SS clad,with western handle. Some Japanese country style blades have carbon core and iron clad,and those are always asian handle and mostly single bevel (except Nakiri)

A nice cheap RUGGED Deba is the Kershaw Wasabi 8 1/2. Any time theres a question of dulling my main knives or chipping,,,the Deba comes out. Froxen food and chicken bones don't pose any problem,no chips and it hardly dull this thing. Too bad it does not have a western handle. I don't advocate spending massive cash on a big deba. The Wasabi is hard and tough,single edged,VERY easy to keep sharp for such a brute of a knife. Some of the other guys at work like it as a chef's knife.

I have a Tojiro DP on the way...but after 30 yr using the 430-10 Forschners,it will stay in my kit too. I'll probably reshape the Tojiro handle more rounded like the Forschner.

One often overlooked thing is that acidic foods will degrade the edge on a carbon knife,possibly contributing to some chipping. For the Tojiro,the edge is Carbon,so even though the sides are stainless it won't get used on acidic foods. We have Mexican dishes often so Peppers and onions..I'll use one of my SS blades.

[Rembrant Wood]

Toufas I have a Tojiro DP Honesuki 150mm.  Great boning knife.  It is as close to a true single beveled knife as you will see.  I would estimate it is as 90/10 or 95/5. 

I sent a message to the people at Korin on sharpening it and they suggested that in sharpening it to just sharpen the front side till you get a burr then lightly remove it off the back side but don't put an angle on the back side.  The knife was still sharp but I was in a sharpening mood last week and put steel to stone. Just boned out a bunch of chicken thighs.  What a joy to use for jobs like that.

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Any knife with a core,whether a Carbon core, VG 10 whatever won't usually be a single edge as that would not give much cladding on the flat side or the usual concave.

Tojiro likely did about a 90-10 or so to center the working edge on the core.

[Rembrant Wood]

But I do think the maintenance gear for these knives is expensive ... stones, papers, strops, compounds, educational materials, etc. etc...

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Out of those you really only need to spend money on stones. Papers, strops, and compounds are all unnecessary items that are used to take the edge finer than anyone would actually need to take it. I use my Japanese knives in a professional setting and there is no need whatsoever for me to have a knife that has been stropped. Honestly, in my experience, I don't need to do anything past an 8000 grit waterstone to have the sharpest knife in the kitchen. As for costly educational materials, the internet is quite free.

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I messed around with stropping MANY years ago,and got a bit keener edge,but after an hour or two on the job,that little extra was pretty much gone. I did go with a fine finish stone and I refined my steeling a bit,which was a bit more efficient for the knives I had.

I now have a harder knife and at least one more on the way, might try stropping again.

Until you can get good results on the stones,don't worry about a strop. I don't even have an 8000 waterstone,and pretty much any of my knives are sharpest in the kitchen. My low $ Deba is much sharper than the house knives can get.....and the house knives only get decent if I sharpen them.

I do cutting in large volumes and a "perfect" edgeon my MAIN knife isn't practical as it's good for maybe 1 hr of non-stop work. I do a compound bevel aiming for an all day edge. My small blade gets the max edge treatment as it's dealing with soft targets and low impact push-slice. I have Light-Medium-Heavy duty knives so each gets tailored to its role ....it's like the difference in a defensive tackle,a linebacker and a cornerback.